smkettner
Well-known member
Securing Nissan brick for airport or other public charging
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=7587
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=7587
Another Dead Leaf after Vacation Plugged In - Detailed Info
- Thread starter gonefishin
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
Tons of electronics on the car, lots of the electronics are new, it's silent when ON, and the 12 battery is smaller than normal. There probably will be situations when the electronics run the 12v battery down. Rather than disconnect the battery I'd just take a small portable charger "just in case". You don't need to crank the engine so it could be very small, taking up less space than jumper cables. Something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-SSLION-Simple-Battery-Booster/dp/B005GO5E10/ref=pd_sim_auto_3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Coming back to a car with a dead battery parked font-end-in could be a huge pain.
Coming back to a car with a dead battery parked font-end-in could be a huge pain.
Ingineer
Well-known member
The problem with this is the deep-cycling and subsequent "sitting dead" will trash your expensive 12v battery, leaving you with even less reserve time in the future. Disconnection will require you to reset your clock, power window auto-up, and charge timer, but otherwise isn't that difficult and will preserve your battery longevity. I replaced my negative terminal nut with a wing-nut so I can easily do it w/o tools.SanDust said:
-Phil
That's true. But if you need to charge at the airport so you can drive home after a trip then disconnecting the battery won't work because you won't be able to charge. I'm also assuming that this is an unusual event that doesn't get repeated so the stress on the battery shouldn't be so great.Ingineer said:
Dead Leaf. Charged to 100%. OFF CHARGER. Moved to carport, sat for 9 days, solar panel in the light. 12 volt battery dead. AND the drive battery was DEAD! Some of the days were in the 90's, but I live in Michigan and that should not be the issue.
I was home the first two days, and the Leaf was OFF. I returned to a car without power locks and keyed the door, pressed the power button to find a most distressing sequence of lights and then went dead on the dash is seconds.
I figured the 12 volt battery was dead. I put it on a charger and returned to the car to find the locks worked, hit the power button and WARNING LOW BATTERY! 0 miles! As the car was in the carport, I had to use the OEM 120 volt charger. After 8 hours, the OEM charger registered an error and had stopped charging. I found the car had 1 mile of charge. I could now drive it to the garage and the 240 EV charger. After four hours, it showed fully charged and ONLY a 13 mile range!
I drove it for thirteen miles and the range indicator had increased to 40 miles. I returned it to the charger and drove it normally the next few days and charging cycles. It now appears normal.
I called Leaf and asked them to start a ticket on the issue, they did. I am now to take my Leaf to the dealer to let them test and investigate the issue further. I will post any news here.
I mentioned I was home the first two days of the nine days the car was parked. I entered the car to get items from the car. I checked the lights and I am virtually certain the car was off and I know no lights were on as I checked it at night. I used carwings on an Android phone to show a friend the features of the phone, car-wings, and the car. I do wonder if I hit the air conditioning button or some such thing while I was out of town, but I do not believe that could cause the entire drive battery to discharge to zero. That would be a problem for many others.
So, I too believe that there must be a problem that could be resolved by Nissan.
I was home the first two days, and the Leaf was OFF. I returned to a car without power locks and keyed the door, pressed the power button to find a most distressing sequence of lights and then went dead on the dash is seconds.
I figured the 12 volt battery was dead. I put it on a charger and returned to the car to find the locks worked, hit the power button and WARNING LOW BATTERY! 0 miles! As the car was in the carport, I had to use the OEM 120 volt charger. After 8 hours, the OEM charger registered an error and had stopped charging. I found the car had 1 mile of charge. I could now drive it to the garage and the 240 EV charger. After four hours, it showed fully charged and ONLY a 13 mile range!
I drove it for thirteen miles and the range indicator had increased to 40 miles. I returned it to the charger and drove it normally the next few days and charging cycles. It now appears normal.
I called Leaf and asked them to start a ticket on the issue, they did. I am now to take my Leaf to the dealer to let them test and investigate the issue further. I will post any news here.
I mentioned I was home the first two days of the nine days the car was parked. I entered the car to get items from the car. I checked the lights and I am virtually certain the car was off and I know no lights were on as I checked it at night. I used carwings on an Android phone to show a friend the features of the phone, car-wings, and the car. I do wonder if I hit the air conditioning button or some such thing while I was out of town, but I do not believe that could cause the entire drive battery to discharge to zero. That would be a problem for many others.
So, I too believe that there must be a problem that could be resolved by Nissan.
This sounds like a more serious issue than just a dead 12v battery but it's probably not. No way should you lose an entire charge in 9 days. (BTW why did you charge it to 100% if you were leaving it, not a good idea). If that had happened then the car would have some serious issues and you'd probably be looking at a new pack.
But it seems like when the 12V died the estimates of the range, which are probably run off the 12v, went completely off the rails. The estimated range of 0 miles or 3 miles was incorrect, and the car probably had its full range. Driving it around charged the 12v and reset the system so the estimate snapped out of its wonky state. Doesn't seem like a big deal and probably no damage was done to the pack.
When you take it to the dealer they will probably say everything is normal. If you can ask them if the 12v is connected to the electronics that estimate the range.
But it seems like when the 12V died the estimates of the range, which are probably run off the 12v, went completely off the rails. The estimated range of 0 miles or 3 miles was incorrect, and the car probably had its full range. Driving it around charged the 12v and reset the system so the estimate snapped out of its wonky state. Doesn't seem like a big deal and probably no damage was done to the pack.
When you take it to the dealer they will probably say everything is normal. If you can ask them if the 12v is connected to the electronics that estimate the range.
ztanos
Well-known member
SanDust said:
Does the guess-o-meter drop if you leave it in acc mode? To show that your consistent driving pattern for the tank is 0 since it hasn't moved? Maybe he left it in acc mode and it did truly deplete itself.
Herm
Well-known member
Perhaps the contactor got stuck in the battery pack.. hopefully it did not get bricked.
Ingineer
Well-known member
The only obvious thing you did wrong was to charge to 100% and let it sit for 9 days degrading. This is not good! I would have charged to only 80%, (or less) then disconnected my 12v negative as I've described above. If you follow my advice next time you will return with a healthy charge on both batteries, with maybe only 1-2% lost.timtwerp said:
-Phil
I thank you for the great feedback. I do wish to follow up with a couple of questions and perhaps an observation. It can not be normal for this situation to happen. No one will accept a car to fail after sitting for a short period of time. Nissan must determine why the batteries, 12v and drive train, would discharge just by sitting for a short period, (less than 30 days).
I will agree that disconnecting the negative terminal will provide protection against this situation, but a reliable car does not need this preventative measure in short periods on non use.
I have been driving the leaf for just less than 90 days. I am very happy with it. I am sure I made the 100 club, but did not document the event. I will pay attention now and soon hope to post a documented 100 mile charge.
The dealer made it clear that Nissan no longer is supporting consumers charging to 80% to increase the life of the battery. I understood that the charging software is managing that in current Leafs. I have looked online and find no support, but that was the impression I had when I left the dealer on delivery. Do you know anything about this? (Might need to be a new thread!)
I will agree that disconnecting the negative terminal will provide protection against this situation, but a reliable car does not need this preventative measure in short periods on non use.
I have been driving the leaf for just less than 90 days. I am very happy with it. I am sure I made the 100 club, but did not document the event. I will pay attention now and soon hope to post a documented 100 mile charge.
The dealer made it clear that Nissan no longer is supporting consumers charging to 80% to increase the life of the battery. I understood that the charging software is managing that in current Leafs. I have looked online and find no support, but that was the impression I had when I left the dealer on delivery. Do you know anything about this? (Might need to be a new thread!)
Stoaty
Well-known member
Rule #1: Most dealers are ignorant and/or lie.timtwerp said:
Rule #2: You can't change rule #1.
PS That is the biggest load of BS I have heard shoveled in a long time.
RegGuheert
Well-known member
I agree with you fully on this point. It is not reasonable to expect customers to take a toolbox to the airport with them and work under the hood when traveling on business. In addition, these deep discharges will result in early failure of the 12V battery, which I *think* is excluded from the vehicle warranty.timtwerp said:
I remember that the first-generation Priuses had a similar problem which Toyota eventually rectified. The problem with this type of issue is that it is not clear under what conditions this occurs. It is quite possible that Nissan does not know how to replicate the problem and therefore cannot fix it. Hopefully they will figure it out and provide a firmware update to resolve the issue soon.
It sounds like your dealer is just making lame excuses for charging your car to 100%. Unfortunately, they all do it.timtwerp said:
I don't think the battery pack discharged. I think you just got a bad reading because the 12V died. If the battery pack did discharge then you have a big problem because fully discharging the pack is not a good thing.timtwerp said:
There are lots of electronics in the car. If for some reason something was left on then that could drain the 12V. Tracing that could be an issue. Do you remember doing anything unusual or any unusual behavior before you left your car? If you the car was somehow in ACC mode and some accessory like Bluetooth was on then that would drain the battery. A
RegGuheert
Well-known member
Only for one hour, according to the the 2011 LEAF Owner's Manual Revised:SanDust said:
Of course, that does not mean it doesn't happen, only that it is not SUPPOSED to happen.2011 LEAF Owner's Manual Revised said:
Just to be clear. The drive pack was completely discharged. Low battery warnings, zero miles, would not go into reverse or forward. Once I had it on the 240 volt charger, it took 4 hours to put 13 miles on the guess o meter, and after driving for 13 miles, the guess o meter registered the battery at approximately 1/2 full.
If the main battery had not discharged, and the computer went goofy on the guess o meter, then the L2 charger would not have taken four hours to charge the battery part way.
I spoke to both 800 Nissan and the Dealer. I understand the disbelief, but that is why I posted the information here and why I asked Nissan to start a ticket on this issue. If this harms my battery, or if others experience similar drive battery discharges, I wanted this example documented.
As Nissan offers one free battery check a year, I decided to wait and have my battery check later, perhaps at the 7500 mile tire rotation. I leased the Leaf, so it really belongs to Nissan anyway. If all is well at three years I can decide then if I wish to own it.
By the way, thank you for all of your suggestions on this site. I am now charging to 80% on an as needed basis. I drove 75 miles today when the guess o meter said I could go 81 this morning.( I have 4 miles left and I live 1/2 mile from work! I think I will splurge and use the AC on the way home
) I will charge to 100% on days when I need the range and I will NEVER let the car sit charged to 100%.
If the main battery had not discharged, and the computer went goofy on the guess o meter, then the L2 charger would not have taken four hours to charge the battery part way.
I spoke to both 800 Nissan and the Dealer. I understand the disbelief, but that is why I posted the information here and why I asked Nissan to start a ticket on this issue. If this harms my battery, or if others experience similar drive battery discharges, I wanted this example documented.
As Nissan offers one free battery check a year, I decided to wait and have my battery check later, perhaps at the 7500 mile tire rotation. I leased the Leaf, so it really belongs to Nissan anyway. If all is well at three years I can decide then if I wish to own it.
By the way, thank you for all of your suggestions on this site. I am now charging to 80% on an as needed basis. I drove 75 miles today when the guess o meter said I could go 81 this morning.( I have 4 miles left and I live 1/2 mile from work! I think I will splurge and use the AC on the way home
) I will charge to 100% on days when I need the range and I will NEVER let the car sit charged to 100%.FWIW no disbelief on my part at all. Just trying to figure out what might have happened. If the HV pack discharged then my guess is you left the car on. Not hard to do given how quiet it is. That's not a bad thing. In this case the pack wouldn't have discharged in an uncontrolled way and the car would have shut down normally.
The reason I'm questioning the battery being discharged is that I'm not sure four hours of charging after the battery goes below VLBW and then driving 13 miles would give you a half full battery. Then again driving 13 miles with a full battery shouldn't give you a half full battery either.
The reason I'm questioning the battery being discharged is that I'm not sure four hours of charging after the battery goes below VLBW and then driving 13 miles would give you a half full battery. Then again driving 13 miles with a full battery shouldn't give you a half full battery either.
gonefishin
Active member
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2011
- Messages
- 26
AHA! I have the final proof. I know someone who left his leaf plugged in for 8 days charged up so that it should not have done any actual charging while he was gone. When he returned, his leaf's 12v was dead. QED
Now, there are two reports in this thread that don't have all the details but seem to leave the possibility that they left their cars plugged in for >8 days and they didn't die. I'm not sure how this could be. Perhaps there's different software running around? Mine is a late model 2011 with cold weather package. The other one that died was a first run 2011. Another possibility is that the solar panel charged the 12v battery for other people, although I doubt there's enough charge provided by that to offset a computer draining the 12v in 2 days. One poster seemed to clearly indicate they were doing some charging during the vacation and did a full charge halfway through. Another poster indicated it charged <5 min each day to 100% which doesn't make any sense but if she was charging any amount each day then it would avoid the problem.
If anyone else has other reports of "experiments" of leaving their car plugged in for 8+ days please give the full details.
Now, there are two reports in this thread that don't have all the details but seem to leave the possibility that they left their cars plugged in for >8 days and they didn't die. I'm not sure how this could be. Perhaps there's different software running around? Mine is a late model 2011 with cold weather package. The other one that died was a first run 2011. Another possibility is that the solar panel charged the 12v battery for other people, although I doubt there's enough charge provided by that to offset a computer draining the 12v in 2 days. One poster seemed to clearly indicate they were doing some charging during the vacation and did a full charge halfway through. Another poster indicated it charged <5 min each day to 100% which doesn't make any sense but if she was charging any amount each day then it would avoid the problem.
If anyone else has other reports of "experiments" of leaving their car plugged in for 8+ days please give the full details.
gonefishin
Active member
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2011
- Messages
- 26
Also, I forgot to mention that I was also on vacation for 12 days. I left the car at about 20% charge unplugged. When I returned it was still at that level and started up just fine.
RegGuheert
Well-known member
I don't yet have any data for the "plugged-in" case, but I have been taking some data for the unplugged case to use as a baseline. My data is taken manually on a LEAF which is driven intermittently, so I never know a priori how long the car will sit. Still, I think there is some useful data to be gleaned here.gonefishin said:
Notes:- I always waited for five minutes or so after driving or charging before taking any readings to ensure that all of the higher-draw electronics had been switched off and the battery voltage had risen up and stabilized before taking any of these readings. As such, I expect all data points on this graph were taken with a similarly small load on the battery (unverified).
- The car was charged and/or driven just prior to three of these spikes in 12-V battery voltage: 1.5, 8.5 and 14 days
- The data between day 14 and day 21.5 was for a car which was completely untouched: The car was not plugged in, charged or driven, nor were the doors or trunk opened. I may have accessed it via Carwings once or twice, however.
- The voltage spike at day 19.5 was apparently due to the automatic charging of the battery that is supposed to occur after five days. I did not manage to catch the actual charging event which occurred overnight, so I don't know how much time transpired from the time it stopped until I took a reading. While it clearly did a charge, I will note that after two days the voltage was lower than it had been before this charge episode. As such, it's not clear whether or not this every-five-day charge will maintain the battery long-term or not.
- Note that the 12-V battery only appears to have achieved a "full" state-of-charge at day 1.5 after being in "READY" mode continuously for 4.5 hours. It seems the battery was nicely charged after that drive and showing a voltage over 12.7 V. However, it does not seem to do a great job of topping off the 12-V battery following shorter drives or even during charging episodes.
- Note that the voltage actually WENT UP around day 21! This phenomenon of flattening or rising voltage ONLY occurred during the daytime. Since the voltage of lead-acid batteries goes DOWN as they get warmer, this is NOT due to the warming of the battery. That leaves two possibilities: One, my voltmeter reads slightly higher as it gets warmer. I hope not, since I took all the readings with a Fluke 77. The other is that the solar panel is providing some charge to the battery during the daytime, or at least reducing overall current draw from the batteries. Note that the LEAF was parked in our garage with its tail end toward the south. Some days the garage door remained open and other days it was closed with only some light coming through the small windows at the tops of the doors. Never did the solar panel get direct sunlight on it during any of these readings. I would have liked to have followed this trend longer to see if the battery voltage would stabilize, but unfortunately, it was time to drive the car again.
- Notice that as the voltage of the battery came down, the slope of the voltage drop also got lower. That would be consistent with the PV panel providing more and more of the small battery load as the voltage moved down.
Overall it seems that the LEAF doesn't do a great job of keeping the 12-V battery topped off, but instead the battery seems to live around 12.5 V much of the time. While I do not know how much current is being drawn from the battery during my measurements, I do know that the battery showed a voltage around 12.7 V for about a full day, which makes me think the load currents during this test are very low and that these voltages are quite close to actual resting voltages for the battery. Given that assumption, it seems the 12-V battery in our LEAF lives around an 80% SOC. That state could lead to premature battery failure due to hardening of the lead-sulfate, particularly in hot climates.
The issue seems to be that it takes a rather long drive in the LEAF for the battery to charge up to 100% SOC. This is almost certainly due to the fact that the LEAF does very little charging at 14.4 V and mostly charges at 13.0 V.
Anyway, it will be interesting to see how LEAF 12-V batteries hold up as compared with batteries in traditional cars using traditional charging techniques. I expect in cooler climates they may actually last LONGER than normal batteries, but in hot climates, I wonder if leaving them partially uncharged might result in early death or if that is better than risking having them outgas while trying to top them off. Certainly deep discharges like gonefishin and others have experienced will not do the battery any favors. Like everything, time will tell.
So to address the OP's situation, I will say that one big variable in this equation is the SOC of the 12-V battery when departing for vacation. Perhaps some have a better situation by driving to the airport and therefore charging their 12-V battery just before they leave. That only provides about 1 hour of charging, but it is something. I am still in a quandary, since I MUST charge to make it home from the airport. Of course one possibility is to set up the timers for a limited charge each day to have the car gradually achieve a full charge before I returned home. Another approach may be to take an additional hour upon return and plug in before driving home or arrive an hour early and charge before parking the car. That is not overly attractive, but it is one more option. A quick-charger could come in handy here!
Finally, I will say that I intend to perform similar testing as has been done here, but with the car plugged in. However, I don't want to do that in the heat of the summer since it will be charging the traction battery potentially up to 80% each night (again, I don't know when the car will be used, so a staged charge won't work for me at home). So I plan to do this in the wintertime when it is 25 degrees outside.
