am I a mooch?

[MikeinDenver]

If it is posted that it is only for customers, then yes. Otherwise, no.



That is a subjective assumption not a fact. I happen to know of a Whole Foods that does not mark for customers and if you ask they will tell you they are ONLY for customers. You are assuming this is everyone's marking strategy, this is an assumption that may or may not be true but is is just an assumption.

There is no grey area with charging on public property. Unless it is clearly marked for public use (or stated elsewhere) then it should always be assumed it is for private use or for customers only. There is no unspoken or documented EV charging code that gets to override the rules of private property or common sense and respect based on ones own views, values, assumptions, rationalizations, justifications, wishes, etc.


So if there is a grocery store with produce on the curb side and plastic bag rolls for holding items and it is not marked "for customers only" I can just take all the bags I want? I mean, if it's not marked then why not?

You can't rely on assumptions. If they want it to be for customer use only they have to have a sign. Otherwise it is open to interpretation. The fruit example is over the top. Everyone would know that is stealing.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

If there is a plug outside someones house, should you feel free to plug in because there is no sign? That is a weak case for justifying stealing.
There are many things for which there are no signs. They are called social norms!

I can't believe there is all this hand wringing over $1 of electricity taken from an EVSE that didn't have any signs stating it was for paying customers of the casino only. On the other hand, I also can't believe I just spent 20 minutes reading this entire thread. The human mind is a curious thing.

maybe you should review the difference between a public parking place and a private one first

 

[EVDRIVER]

If it is posted that it is only for customers, then yes. Otherwise, no.



That is a subjective assumption not a fact. I happen to know of a Whole Foods that does not mark for customers and if you ask they will tell you they are ONLY for customers. You are assuming this is everyone's marking strategy, this is an assumption that may or may not be true but is is just an assumption.

There is no grey area with charging on public property. Unless it is clearly marked for public use (or stated elsewhere) then it should always be assumed it is for private use or for customers only. There is no unspoken or documented EV charging code that gets to override the rules of private property or common sense and respect based on ones own views, values, assumptions, rationalizations, justifications, wishes, etc.


So if there is a grocery store with produce on the curb side and plastic bag rolls for holding items and it is not marked "for customers only" I can just take all the bags I want? I mean, if it's not marked then why not?

You can't rely on assumptions. If they want it to be for customer use only they have to have a sign. Otherwise it is open to interpretation. The fruit example is over the top. Everyone would know that is stealing.

Really? I see people do that all the time and think they are justified, you just made an assumption based on your value system that may not be the same as others. My more contrasted point was used to exemplify what is not always clear. No business needs to have a sign saying something is only for customer use, these are values and interpretations we set and they are not fact or requirement. Please show me any city ordinance the requires this. We can all make reasonable or unreasonable assumptions but the fact remains that the use of parking, charging, water from the hose, etc does not require the owner to disclose what is public and what is not. The assumption should default to it is not since it is PRIVATE property. There is no difference between taking power from someones home outlet or business outlet/EVSE other than the assumption it is ok because it is a business, this is simply a convenient assumption to justify not asking.

I can tell you I am fully guilty of charging in situations like this in the past but I know and recognize this is not a right nor do I have any justification to assume it so.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

How about popping into a store, maybe a larger one like Walmart, or a McDonald's, and using the restroom when you didn't buy anything? Is that stealing?

 

[EVDRIVER]

How about popping into a store, maybe a larger one like Walmart, or a McDonald's, and using the restroom when you didn't buy anything? Is that stealing?

It sure is mooching but done so often is it considered acceptable but that does not make it right.

If you ask most business how they feel about this they will tell you it can be a big issue, particularly small ones as the cost of time and materials to maintain a bathroom that is abused by the public is a pain. Setting any debate about stealing aside, does anyone practice respect and common courtesy anymore or do we assume it is ours first and go from there? I see the entitlement factor of new EV drivers to be far higher than ever and more the norm in big cities, sometimes to extreme levels.


If someone parked at my business and needed a charge and asked me I would allow them no problem, if someone did this assuming it was ok and were not a customer I would have an issue and if it prevented a paying customer from using the station it would be a bigger issue. One time I was in an absolute bind and unplugged a Volt that was almost finished charging on a free station. I left $5 on the dash with a long note, I came back to find the money under my wiper with a "no problem". I think that any offer to show respect to a business or individual goes a long way and assuming a right to use first is simply selfish and entitled when it comes to charging. I had no right to unplug that car clearly but I was stranded and knew it was the wrong thing to do but I made that clear to the owner. I also know I have no right to plug in on private property unless it is made clear to me that I do, the decision to do so is mine but I own it and I'm not going to make up a bunch of reasons to justify that. The OP has a moral compass worth noting, I find it interesting that some may take the default position of a right to do something rather than the respectful position to ask, that is more of a benefit to the EV community then the thousands of assumptions we can make up in our mind. We all buy into an get used to our own rationalizations at times, sometimes to the point were they become facts to us :lol:

Ever see trash in the home depot parking structure? I see contractors dump there at times and when I asked one why he said " I spend lots of money here and need room in my truck for the new materials". Not exactly stealing but it sure costs money to clean it up. In his mind he was convinced that was ok and there were no sighs posted that said "no dumping allowed" because we all know if there are no signs its ok to dump. :roll:


PS- The only reason I buy an Egg Mc Muffin on road trips is do use the bathroom at MD, that is all they are good for.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Let's explore the bathroom angle a little more. Say you frequently shop at Walmarts, often without availing yourself of the accommodation. Then on some occasion, perhaps while traveling, perhaps at a store location other than where you might normally shop, you find yourself in need of a facility without having to shop for anything. Is it OK to use their restroom on the basis of them doing you a solid for past patronage?
(Remember OP not only didn't patronize the casino, but specifically indicated disdain for the premise of their business and said he never would)

 

[johnrhansen]

There's lots of people who see the world in absolutes. Black and white, right and wrong. They think everyone else should have the same level of morals that they do. I think the world would be a far better place if people not only work on developing the moral compass we speak of here, but work on understanding that everyone is different, and have developed their own idea of what is right and wrong from the circumstances they grew up in. Tolerance and understanding is just as important as morality. I think that everyone knows what is right and wrong in their mind, and if everyone followed their own code of ethics things would be ok. The problem is when people do something that they feel is wrong and just don't care.

I'll use the McDonald's as an example. There have been times I've gone in there and used the restroom and not bought anything. It's hard to do, because I love the soft serve! But here have been times I was on a diet and resisted. I feel fine, because I have patronized them in the past and intend to in the future. Plus I always leave the bathroom cleaner than I went in. Who am I hurting? Now for the casino... yes I dont gamble, and it does make me mad that they separate fools from their money. But it was expedient for me to use that station. I ran the scenario through my moral compass and was ok with it because I intended to eat there after the hike was over. What happened was afterwards I didn't feel like eating, so I didn't go in. I guess I should have went back in for a beer or something. My mistake. I'll make a point to go back there later and buy 2 beers!

 

[EVDRIVER]

Let's explore the bathroom angle a little more. Say you frequently shop at Walmarts, often without availing yourself of the accommodation. Then on some occasion, perhaps while traveling, perhaps at a store location other than where you might normally shop, you find yourself in need of a facility without having to shop for anything. Is it OK to use their restroom on the basis of them doing you a solid for past patronage?
(Remember OP not only didn't patronize the casino, but specifically indicated disdain for the premise of their business and said he never would)

If you support a company and continue to support the company you are contributing to the cost use of that bathroom and it seems reasonable. If you buy a pack of gum once and use the bathroom weekly it seems a bit abusive. On the other hand it seems one can always pick up something they need at the store when using the bathroom and without exception when I visit a gas station I buy some item before using the bathroom since I don't buy gas. Anyone that continues to solicit a business would be considered a customer even if not making a purchase each time. We can split hairs on areas like this clearly.

The dealer that sold me my car gave a few months of free charging and that is beyond reasonable IMO, they were smart to do that because there are dozens of non-customers and old customers that try to make it their weekly charge spot and it drives the dealer crazy with all the bickering for the spot. They don't owe me anything other than the car I bought, but we hashed this one out before. :lol:

 

[EVDRIVER]

When charging at a private business the best approach is to plug in, lock the handle to the car, cut the phone lines, then padlock the business doors so no one can get out to unplug you. When leaving it is courteous to remember to unlock their doors and leave a thank you note for charging that is signed "Plug in Prius driver". :lol:

 

[apvbguy]

How about popping into a store, maybe a larger one like Walmart, or a McDonald's, and using the restroom when you didn't buy anything? Is that stealing?

theoretically yes, proper etiquette would be to buy a little something.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Buying something you don't need or didn't intend to buy otherwise just to ameliorate your guilt over using the bathroom seems like it is unnecessarily increasing your carbon footprint and creating a lot of other negative impacts.

 

[abasile]

Buying something you don't need or didn't intend to buy otherwise just to ameliorate your guilt over using the bathroom seems like it is unnecessarily increasing your carbon footprint and creating a lot of other negative impacts.

In a big box retailer, there's almost always something that can reasonably be purchased. If nothing else, maybe a couple of groceries. The trouble is, there isn't always time to pick something up and wait in line to pay for it. If a little kid needs to run to the bathroom and other family members are waiting in the car and needing to get somewhere, then the store purchase might have to wait for another occasion. Life isn't always scripted...

 

[johnrhansen]

I could put a dollar or two into the Ronald McDonald house box. Or whatever charity box. All businesses have them.

 

[apvbguy]

Buying something you don't need or didn't intend to buy otherwise just to ameliorate your guilt over using the bathroom seems like it is unnecessarily increasing your carbon footprint and creating a lot of other negative impacts.

what contortions you are putting yourself through, don't be a piker, if you need to pee in a coffee shop buy a cup of coffee, sheesh

 

[apvbguy]

Buying something you don't need or didn't intend to buy otherwise just to ameliorate your guilt over using the bathroom seems like it is unnecessarily increasing your carbon footprint and creating a lot of other negative impacts.

what contortions you are putting yourself through, don't be a piker, if you need to pee in a coffee shop buy a cup of coffee, sheesh

FWIW a year ago I was in Rome It. and I needed to go, badly, I rushed into a cafe ordered an espresso from the bar and ran to the restroom, when I came out the guy just smiled and said no worries, YMMV

 

[Stoaty]

There is no grey area with charging on public property. Unless it is clearly marked for public use (or stated elsewhere) then it should always be assumed it is for private use or for customers only.

You are entitled to your opinion, a lot of us don't agree.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

wow! can't believe this thread is still alive. lets keep it going!

the weather is expected to rise into the upper 90's in the Great Pacific Northwest which means inversion layers and higher levels of pollution which also means one should reduce their driving to vital needs only OR if like us, offer someone a ride!!

 

[MikeinDenver]

If it is posted that it is only for customers, then yes. Otherwise, no.



That is a subjective assumption not a fact. I happen to know of a Whole Foods that does not mark for customers and if you ask they will tell you they are ONLY for customers. You are assuming this is everyone's marking strategy, this is an assumption that may or may not be true but is is just an assumption.

There is no grey area with charging on public property. Unless it is clearly marked for public use (or stated elsewhere) then it should always be assumed it is for private use or for customers only. There is no unspoken or documented EV charging code that gets to override the rules of private property or common sense and respect based on ones own views, values, assumptions, rationalizations, justifications, wishes, etc.


So if there is a grocery store with produce on the curb side and plastic bag rolls for holding items and it is not marked "for customers only" I can just take all the bags I want? I mean, if it's not marked then why not?

You can't rely on assumptions. If they want it to be for customer use only they have to have a sign. Otherwise it is open to interpretation. The fruit example is over the top. Everyone would know that is stealing.

Really? I see people do that all the time and think they are justified, you just made an assumption based on your value system that may not be the same as others. My more contrasted point was used to exemplify what is not always clear. No business needs to have a sign saying something is only for customer use, these are values and interpretations we set and they are not fact or requirement. Please show me any city ordinance the requires this. We can all make reasonable or unreasonable assumptions but the fact remains that the use of parking, charging, water from the hose, etc does not require the owner to disclose what is public and what is not. The assumption should default to it is not since it is PRIVATE property. There is no difference between taking power from someones home outlet or business outlet/EVSE other than the assumption it is ok because it is a business, this is simply a convenient assumption to justify not asking.

I can tell you I am fully guilty of charging in situations like this in the past but I know and recognize this is not a right nor do I have any justification to assume it so.

The difference between a business and a private residence is quite distinct. One is inviting people to come and visit it the other is not. If I put an EVSE in a designated parking spot in front of my house I would expect that people could come and use it even if they were not invited to my house. It isn't and so on on plugshare it says to text me first. You see people steal fruit all the time because it is in front of the store instead of inside it? I have never seen this.

 

[apvbguy]

it appears the most Tesla owners get it right

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/33474-Road-trip-question-Bugs-on-windshield-how-to-clean" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[klapauzius]

wow! can't believe this thread is still alive. lets keep it going!

the weather is expected to rise into the upper 90's in the Great Pacific Northwest which means inversion layers and higher levels of pollution which also means one should reduce their driving to vital needs only OR if like us, offer someone a ride!!

I have the feeling this topic will become much more important as the number of EVs grows and they become common place.

I can imagine though that if the parking lot had e.g. a spot with a non-pay-per-use gasoline dispenser, which would give out a few ounces of gasoline every hour, the situation might be judged quite differently...