Aerovironment free charger/install questions

[tinaCA]

Hi all,

Just leased a Leaf last week and got on the list for the "free" Aerovironment L2 charger and standard install. We are trickle charging for now, but it would be convenient to have a charger, even if just to avoid the packing an unpacking of the charger. I expect to hear from them this week about an evaluation appointment. Although I have always been an avid DIY'er I have never messed with electric (and don't plan to - but I want to understand more about how this all works, forgive any incorrect terminology regrding panels/ circuits etc.

However I would like to know what to expect first, if it's too expensive we will just stick with the trickle charging.

Is it possible/more economical to run the line from the main meter panel rather than from the interior sub panel?

Does anyone know, if we decide the upgrade is too expensive right now do we still get to have the free charger so we can install in future when we have budgeted to upgrade our electric panel?

Are there any additional CA/Fed tax incentives or rebates etc for the costs related to installing an EV charger that are not included in Aerovironment's standard install?

 

[cwerdna]

Please stop using the wrong terminology. You're getting an EVSE installed, NOT a charger. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14728&p=332668#p332668" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I haven't read your situation carefully (need to run right now).

My saga with http://evsolutions.avinc.com/products/cec/cec_program_overview" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ended with http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8264#p8264" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I don't need L2 charging at home anyway and certainly wasn't going to pay $5K for something I didn't need. I get free L2 charging at work my commute is short, only ~12 miles each way.

 

[RonDawg]

1. Most definitely.
2. If you use the AeroVironment one, that is a 30 amp EVSE which would require a 40 amp circuit. Whether your current main panel and feed can support another 40 amp load is to be determined by an electrician. If the dryer circuit is no longer being used (i.e. you are using gas now) you might not have to have the panel upgraded. If you need, or still want, an upgraded panel I believe 200 amp should be sufficient, but an electrician will advise.
3. I believe the answer is no.
4. Right now the Federal government allows you to take a 30% tax credit on an EVSE purchase and installation. I don't know how it works if the state is already paying for part of the costs through a special program. This tax credit expires at the end of this month AFAIK.

 

[tinaCA]

cwerdna no need to be snippy I SAID I may use wrong terminology but clearly you understood - and everyone else involved is calling it a charger or charging station so big deal. Good for you that you didn't need L2 at home - I don't "need" it either but it would be convenient if cost is not too high. My employer has L2 charging but it costs $1/hour so I will use for occasional use only, lucky you that your employer offers it free.

RonDawg, Nope we still need the dryer it is not gas and the gas line does not run up to our second floor where laundry is. I will of course have an electrician out but I like to be familiar with what I'm asking for (in part so I don't get ripped off).

 

[RonDawg]

Nope we still need the dryer it is not gas and the gas line does not run up to our second floor where laundry is. I will of course have an electrician out but I like to be familiar with what I'm asking for (in part so I don't get ripped off).

If installing the AeroVironment will turn out to be too expensive, ask your electrician if you have enough capacity for a 30 or even 20 amp circuit without a major upgrade. A 30 amp circuit will allow you to install a 20 amp EVSE like the Clipper Creek LCS-25 ($495) and a 20 amp one will allow a 16 amp EVSE like the Bosch PowerMax 16A/12 ($450). You can also go the EVSE Upgrade route for about $300. These solutions may be cheaper than the install costs of a 30 amp EVSE.

An EVSE of less than 30 amps won't charge a 6.6kW Leaf at "full speed" but if you plan to charge overnight like most Leafers then it won't matter. For a fully discharged battery, we're talking 8 hours vs. 5.

 

[tinaCA]

I will ask about the 30/20A circuit capacity if the panel is not able to handle 40A. However if the costs are covered partly by a rebate like the federal tax 30% credit it might make it worthwhile to upgrade the panel.

One reason I may not want to stick with trickle charge is that we'll likely change over the EVA rates from PGE which means charging 11pm-7am would be most economical, but that is not enough time to full charge on trickle.

 

[cwerdna]

cwerdna no need to be snippy I SAID I may use wrong terminology but clearly you understood - and everyone else involved is calling it a charger or charging station so big deal. Good for you that you didn't need L2 at home - I don't "need" it either but it would be convenient if cost is not too high. My employer has L2 charging but it costs $1/hour so I will use for occasional use only, lucky you that your employer offers it free.

Sorry if I came across as snippy. I'm not correcting people just for the heck for it or because I'm a stickler for details. The issue is exactly what I stated. Often, the people who are confused and or use the wrong terminology are new and might end up making the wrong decision that comes back to bite them, due to lack of understanding.

Charging station is an ok term to use. Just don't call them chargers. And, folks really should have an understanding of on-board charger vs. EVSE/charging station and charging speed being influenced by a # of factors such as max input/output of OBC, max output of EVSE, max amperage of circuit, line voltage, etc.

 

[planet4ever]

What I don't see in your photos is the main circuit breaker. That will actually be a pair of breakers, likely with a capacity af between 100A and 200A. It is undoubtedly hiding under the metal sheet to the right of your meter. The capacity of those breakers will determine whether you can add another circuit, and how big it can be. It's not just additive, but an electrician will know how to calculate it.

The fact that your main breaker is at the meter does give you another option, if there is enough power coming in to the meter. You should be able to install a relatively small panel near there, feeding your distribution panel in the house and also the wiring for the EVSE.

I'd like to caution you that you are unlikely to get the 30% EVSE tax credit at this date. The requirement is that the EVSE must be installed and operational by December 31. That includes pulling city permits and getting a city inspection, together with at least two, and probably three, electrician visits. There is a very slim chance the credit might be reincarnated again. It originally died at the end of 2011, and was slipped into last year's "fiscal cliff" pork barrel. The Electric Auto Association will try to come up with another miracle if Congress gets stuck the same way this January.

If you can get the AeroVironment free, or nearly free (meaning no electrical upgrade needed), that may be the way to go. Otherwise you may want, as RonDawg suggests, to look at an inexpensive option. The EVSE Upgrade is a fantastic piece of equipment. It will let you charge at RV campgrounds, friends' dryer outlets, ordinary 120v outlets, you name it. And it can be your home charging workhorse. I don't know of any other EVSE that you can tune yourself to a dozen or more different power levels, depending on what is available. It's the only EVSE I, and literally thousands of other LEAFers here, ever use.

If your electrician tells you you can put in a 20A line for $500, but a 40A line would cost $3000 (which it might), the EVSE Upgrade will still charge your car within the PG&E Off-peak rate period on the 20A line.

Ray

 

[tinaCA]

I didn't want to touch that panel to look for the main breaker myself, I am hoping there is room. I have thought about the upgrade/dryer outlet install but if I'm going to install equipment I think I'd prefer the convenience of keeping my trickle charger in the car and having a station hanging on the wall permanently...

 

[planet4ever]

I didn't want to touch that panel to look for the main breaker myself, I am hoping there is room. I have thought about the upgrade/dryer outlet install but if I'm going to install equipment I think I'd prefer the convenience of keeping my trickle charger in the car and having a station hanging on the wall permanently...

There's nothing dangerous directly behind that cover plate; it's just to keep the rain out. It swings up, and you will see another plate behind it with the breaker switches sticking out through it, just like the breakers in the distribution panel. Although it is a large area, it is not built to handle more than the one pair of breakers. Your electrician would have to install a second panel beside it if he says it's OK to do what I suggested. (I am not an electrician, but I know that is what was done by an electrician when he installed my solar system.)

Your thought about about keeping the trickle charging cord in the car is exactly what I thought when I first got a LEAF more than 2½ years ago. It turns out I have used 120v charging three times in the past 31+ months, and none of them were necessary. Twice it was just an excuse to get a better parking space at an airport. If you had a daily need to charge at work from a simple wall outlet, that would be inconvenient, indeed. But the chances are you will know before you leave home if there is any likelihood you might need the cord that day, and the chances are you won't need to worry about it very often. In another post somewhere a while back I compared lugging around that big bag everywhere you go to a child hanging on to their "blankie" when they're ready to start school. So, OK, I'll admit that was a little over the top, but you get the idea. There are lots of L2 stations in the Bay Area, and not a few QC stations. You are very unlikely to need to use L1 unless you go way off the beaten track, and you'll know if you are going to do that.

Ray

 

[tinaCA]

Well, my workplace is putting in more EV spaces that will have free 120V outlets (in addition to Blink L2 stations at $1/hour now) which is an incentive, but my main consideration is that this is a carport it is open and visible from the street so the charger cable could be stolen if left out. Since I'd have to lock it up in a cabinet it's easier just to keep it in the car unless I wanted to bolt it to the wall or something.

 

[LeftieBiker]

A few thoughts, after skimming the posts...

The top two breakers might, if linked together, be the "main breaker." If so, the panel, while it has spaces for more breakers, is at or over capacity. If there is a separate main breaker, it needs to be 150 amps (it won't be 200) for you to have extra capacity for a 40A charging setup, or even a 30 amp.

You could, if you don't use your dryer constantly, have it "share" its breaker with the car's charging station. Ideally you'd want an either/or switch to prevent an overload and breaker trip, but as long as you remembered not to use both devices at once, you'd be ok.

The charging device that comes with your car is called an "EVSE", an awkward acronym at best. You can call it a "charging cable." The point that cwerdna was trying to make is that it can't charge anything, it is just a smart power routing cable that supplies the charger built into your car. The charging station you want to have installed is actually the same thing, in stationary form.

 

[sunil]

Aaargh - cannot get permitted for my "free CA EVSE". Only 125 amp capacity in my panel. Electrician says I would be okay as long as I did not run the car charger at same time as the dryer, but San Jose will not issue a permit for that - and the "free" EVSE must be permitted. SO instead of getting a free EVSE, I am out $75 for the electrician's house call, and no EVSE at home. Panel upgrade to 200 amps will run > 3K, so out of the question for a 3-year lease.

On the bright side, I do not need it - my commute is only 40 miles roundtrip and I can trickle charge at work if I get in early enough to find a spot, so I can live with trickle charging at home as well. But it calls into question what I do 3 years down the road, without home EVSE. Of course I could go the "unpermitted" route, but luckily I do not need to right now.

Anyway - for those of you waiting for your EVSE in CA, make sure you have the panel capacity before you call in the state-sponsored electrician...

 

[RonDawg]

You may not have enough capacity for a 30 amp EVSE (meaning a 40 amp circuit) but did the electrician say anything about a smaller one? I have a 125 amp panel, and have central A/C (but gas heat/cooking/clothes drying) but I was able to have a 30 amp circuit installed.

Unless that electrician specifically said you absolutely could not, you might be able to go with a 30 amp circuit (for a 20 amp EVSE like the Clipper Creek LCS-25, or the EVSE Upgrade for 2013+ Leafs) or even a 20 amp one for a 16 amp EVSE like the Bosch PowerMax 16A/12.

Since you mentioned having an electric dryer, if it's in the garage, and you don't mind doing some plugging/unplugging, is to do the EVSE Upgrade for your Leaf and use the dryer outlet.

With a 40 mile round trip commute, if you don't charge while at work, the car is trickle charging pretty much from the moment you get home to the moment you leave for work, especially in the colder winter months.

 

[sunil]

I think I can get an "unpermitted" charger any tine I want. But the "free" CA charger is out (it requires the 40am circuit per my electrician).

SO far I find if I charge at work for 9 hours, it gets me just exactly enough for my commute (20 miles each way, 40 roundtrip). All last week I managed this way and never even plugged in at home. SO I guess I will live with the home trickle charge (if work charging gets too crowded, I might have to reconsider...).

You may not have enough capacity for a 30 amp EVSE (meaning a 40 amp circuit) but did the electrician say anything about a smaller one? I have a 125 amp panel, and have central A/C (but gas heat/cooking/clothes drying) but I was able to have a 30 amp circuit installed.

Unless that electrician specifically said you absolutely could not, you might be able to go with a 30 amp circuit (for a 20 amp EVSE like the Clipper Creek LCS-25, or the EVSE Upgrade for 2013+ Leafs) or even a 20 amp one for a 16 amp EVSE like the Bosch PowerMax 16A/12.

Since you mentioned having an electric dryer, if it's in the garage, and you don't mind doing some plugging/unplugging, is to do the EVSE Upgrade for your Leaf and use the dryer outlet.

With a 40 mile round trip commute, if you don't charge while at work, the car is trickle charging pretty much from the moment you get home to the moment you leave for work, especially in the colder winter months.

 

[RonDawg]

The reason the "free" EVSE requires a 40 amp circuit is because the particular model chosen for the program is a 30 amp model. Electrical code requires that the circuit not be continuously loaded to more than 80% of its rated capacity, so a 30 amp anything requires a circuit of at least 37.5 amps.

But if you get a less powerful EVSE, particularly a 16 amp model, you might be able to have it installed for far less than the price of the supposedly-free one, and still get it permitted. Mine was $1500 installed to include the EVSE, and that was on the high side due to requirements imposed by my municipality. Yours may be far less.

A 16 amp EVSE won't charge a 6.6 kW-charger-equipped Leaf at full speed, but it's far faster than using 120 volt charging...8 hours vs. 20 for a fully depleted battery.

My daily commute is half yours, and I lived with trickle charging for the first 9 months. Having a 240 volt EVSE made having an electric car MUCH easier. I'm not forced to make decisions about whether to use the car on an extended journey tonight or being able to do so tomorrow morning...the 240 volt EVSE allows me to do both.

 

[tinaCA]

I just got the estimate for our install - $2200. Our carport is 40' from the panel even including going up through the attic. They quoted us for 100' of wiring, but the technician who visited spend about 5 minutes at our home and didn't measure anything so not sure where he got that number. I would have been willing to pay a few extra hundred or if our panel needed upgrading or something but this is just labor and wire - outrageous.

I am pretty annoyed by this whole situation- government program going to private industry that can charge whatever they want for "non standard" but Nissan and others can promote this as a "free" charging station.