2016 Leaf: How many kWh needed, and at what price?

[Petecomp1]

Very interesting thread, enjoyed reading all comments, thanks to all. What If:
-Petroleum supply disruption (anyone remember 1974?) Suddenly aging Leafs would double in value!
-True battery breakthrough (72+KWh at same package size would be such) -Doesn't appear likely by 2016, unfortunately, in spite of the hype.
I have learned in my 65 years that the future can never be accurately predicted. I am hoping that by the time my lease expires in 2016 that (a) I am still above ground and (b) there's a BEV on sale that is better than the current crop of cars. If not, I will be torn between buying out my lease and just walking away. I don't know if I can go back to ICE now that I have become fairly addicted to my Leaf's charming qualities. Might just keep it and pony up for a replacement battery pack.

 

[jlsoaz]

Very interesting thread, enjoyed reading all comments, thanks to all. What If:
-Petroleum supply disruption (anyone remember 1974?) Suddenly aging Leafs would double in value!
-True battery breakthrough (72+KWh at same package size would be such) -Doesn't appear likely by 2016, unfortunately, in spite of the hype.
I have learned in my 65 years that the future can never be accurately predicted. I am hoping that by the time my lease expires in 2016 that (a) I am still above ground and (b) there's a BEV on sale that is better than the current crop of cars. If not, I will be torn between buying out my lease and just walking away. I don't know if I can go back to ICE now that I have become fairly addicted to my Leaf's charming qualities. Might just keep it and pony up for a replacement battery pack.

Pete, it looks like you got into a 2013, so you've at least got that tiny bit of extra range going for you over my 2012. I understand the question-mark you mention. I think I cut the cord on my trusty and fairly reliable ICEV by selling it a couple of weeks ago in part because it got to be a bit annoying to get in it and drive. I'm not sure if all of that was the EV experience. Part of it I guess was also just it was old, somewhat small, not as inherently safe, etc.

 

[jlsoaz]

Agree. $200 a month SL is very cheap. I would be willing to pay more for more range, but not willing to pay for Tesla. Tesla will have their bluestar out by 2017, so at most 4 years to wait. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_BlueStar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The 2014 Infiniti LE is going to have a bigger battery pack.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infiniti_LE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope you're right. What I see at the top of the Wikipedia page is indication of the same 24 kWh pack as the Leaf.

2014 Nissan Leaf will have option for bigger battery pack also. I remember reading or watching a youtube video interview with Nissan but I don't have that reference now.

This would be fantastic if true, particularly if it is an option (so that those satisfied with 24 kWh and lower pricing can stay at that level). I was unable to dig anything up after I saw you post this, but I will try again some other time.

Actually the infiniti has already been verified to have a bigger battery pack but am not in a position to easily search for a link right now

the thought of the LEAF having battery pack options has been discussed but not aware of any definitive word on that.

Thanks Dave, let's all keep an eye out. I'd like to figure out what might be coming up for 2014 on the Leaf. I'm a little wary though of going through hours of video on youtube if we're not sure the information is there. I did see one snippet referencing "autoexpress" having quoted an "insider" at Nissan about the increased battery size option for 2014 for the Leaf, but I definitely think we can't put too much stock in that sort of third- or fourth-hand rumor, so let's keep an eye out to get more solid information from the company, if possible.

 

[DanCar]

I hope you're right. What I see at the top of the Wikipedia page is indication of the same 24 kWh pack as the Leaf.

Not sure what you are seeing. The wiki says 24 KWh or larger and the supplied reference says has room for 10% more battery space.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infiniti_LE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So best case without battery chemistry tweak is 24 * 1.1 = 26.4 KWh. Also given the lower drag coefficient might be enough to reach 100 miles on the freeway.

 

[jlsoaz]

I hope you're right. What I see at the top of the Wikipedia page is indication of the same 24 kWh pack as the Leaf.

Not sure what you are seeing. The wiki says 24 KWh or larger and the supplied reference says has room for 10% more battery space.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infiniti_LE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So best case without battery chemistry tweak is 24 * 1.1 = 26.4 KWh. Also given the lower drag coefficient might be enough to reach 100 miles on the freeway.

Ah yes, I see now, thanks.

 

[johnqh]

I hope you're right. What I see at the top of the Wikipedia page is indication of the same 24 kWh pack as the Leaf.

Not sure what you are seeing. The wiki says 24 KWh or larger and the supplied reference says has room for 10% more battery space.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infiniti_LE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So best case without battery chemistry tweak is 24 * 1.1 = 26.4 KWh. Also given the lower drag coefficient might be enough to reach 100 miles on the freeway.

Drag coefficient is not the only factor. Infiniti is bigger and heavier. It is very unlikely that with 10% more battery, it will have better range than Leaf

 

[jlsoaz]

I hope you're right. What I see at the top of the Wikipedia page is indication of the same 24 kWh pack as the Leaf.

Not sure what you are seeing. The wiki says 24 KWh or larger and the supplied reference says has room for 10% more battery space.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infiniti_LE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So best case without battery chemistry tweak is 24 * 1.1 = 26.4 KWh. Also given the lower drag coefficient might be enough to reach 100 miles on the freeway.

Drag coefficient is not the only factor. Infiniti is bigger and heavier. It is very unlikely that with 10% more battery, it will have better range than Leaf

It also uses more power than a Leaf which might lead to higher accelerations and lower range. In 2012 Nissan indicated 24 kWh, but I tried not to take that as set in stone, particularly since it would seem a bit silly in the luxury segment, competing with Tesla, and Tesla's future lower-priced somewhat-lesser offerings.

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2012/_STORY/120405-03-e.html

Infiniti LE Concept Zero Emission Luxury Sedan Makes World Debut at New York International Auto Show
- "Production Intent" Concept Previews Infiniti's Upcoming Luxury Electric Vehicle -

NEW YORK (April 5, 2012)

[...]The Infiniti LE Concept's battery system is a proven laminated 24 kWh lithium-ion (Li-ion) design with a ChaDeMo DC50kW quick charger.

Also, there was this comment:

"A luxury car for a new generation of sustainable luxury buyers must not compromise on performance. Buyers want ‘green,' but won't settle for any aspect of the driving experience being less than that of their current luxury vehicles," said Ghosn.

The source for the quote on Wikipediabut is not dated):

http://www.newcartestdrive.com/sneakpreview.cfm?ReviewID=423

2014 Infiniti LE
By Paul A. Eisenstein
On Sale: Early 2014
Expected Pricing: Low-$40,000s

[...]

One of the details that has yet to be finalized is the size of the Infiniti LE battery pack. The maker has reserved space for almost 10 percent more batteries than the 24 kilowatt-hours of lithium-ion cells on the Nissan Leaf battery-car. What Infiniti ultimately delivers will be a trade-off between range, performance and price. But the maker asserts a goal of getting at least 100 miles per charge.

Assuming some penalties both for weight and higher power, then barring some other improvements (such as highway-speed-oriented gearing), it is hard to see the LE getting much better range than a Leaf *if* Nissan only adds 10% more kWh. I personally think it's not good thinking to offer a "luxury" car that only gets roughly the same range as a present-day Leaf, even if it's at a comparatively low level of luxury ($20k or so less than a low-end Tesla?). I have assumed since I heard about the vehicle that Nissan would either increase the kWh above 30 or 35 kwh, not come out with the car, or come out with the car in this sort of lame (for the luxury segment) mid-20s kwh configuration and not get quite the demand they seem to anticipate - at least not in the US where distances are greater. I suppose it's possible that if quick-chargers really get deployed more quickly than I realize in areas in the US where Nissan will sell the LE, that they could render moot much of the fretting about kWh and at that point a 24 kWh EV with a 50 kW charging capability would look a bit different to many buyers in those areas. I guess I still think 24 kWh is not enough, but I think it would at least be better if those quick-chargers are really all around.

 

[DaveEV]

On the question of a market and product sweet spot, I think there can be more than one desirable product with more than one desirable price and range @45 or @75 mph. So, the focus on 280 or 300 miles @ 75 mph seems worth discussing at times, but I'd also add:

What about 85 miles @ 70 mph?

I think for some of us (how many is hard to quantify) Nissan did not quite get it right with 24 kWh and about 3.5 miles per kWh or more at slower speeds. They came close enough for many of our purposes, but to speak up about my future purchasing so Nissan knows what I'd like, I suspect that when my Leaf lease is up, my next BEV will have about 35 to 45 kWh (as much as I can afford) and that there will be more competition for my dollars than there was in October 2012.

Well, there's a lot of variables there, and how big of a battery you need ultimately depends on how far/fast you want to get somewhere, QC capabilities of the car and QC station availability on the route you want to take.

If I look at my personal driving, most of it falls into one of these patterns in this frequency of occurrence:

1. 10-15 mile trips with 1h+ stop before return. If charging were available, could easily recoup the range used even on 16A L2 and most of the time L1.
2. 25-35 mile trips with 1h+ stop before return. If charging were available, could easily recoup at least half the range used even on 16A L2 and all the range on 30A L2.
3. 80-110 mile trips with either no stops or 1 30m lunch/dinner stop. At freeway speeds, not going to make that trip in a LEAF without hypermiling. But with a 30 min stop and a QC station or two in the right spot, the trip is fine on the LEAF battery.
4. 200-300 mile trip with 2-3 15-30 min stops. LEAF is not going to cut it on this trip. Even if it could sustain multiple QCs/day without overheating, that's 3-5 30 min QC stops. You really need almost double the battery so you can go 75+ miles between 30 min QCs. 40+ kWh should be sufficient.
5. 400-500 mile trip with 3-4 15-30 min stops. 40 kWh battery is barely sufficient here, you'll need to make extra stops. 60 kWh battery is good, or about 150 miles between charges.

For me, anything farther than 25 miles/trip is really rare. Obviously the short trips are done daily, the 25-35 mile out and back maybe once/twice a week, 80-110 mile trips every couple months and 200+ mile trips a couple times a year.

But you can easily see that everything below 110 mile trips is pretty easily done in the LEAF without much compromise IF there is sufficient and suitable charging infrastructure. Anything more than that and you want significantly more battery capacity, to the point where you probably want 40, 60 or even more.

You can also see that Tesla largely got the battery sizes right - 60 kWh is pretty much the minimum I would need for a "no compromise" car provided there is sufficient charging infrastructure.

I suspect that my driving patterns are fairly typical, but who knows - everyone probably feels that way!

 

[jlsoaz]

On the question of a market and product sweet spot, I think there can be more than one desirable product with more than one desirable price and range @45 or @75 mph. So, the focus on 280 or 300 miles @ 75 mph seems worth discussing at times, but I'd also add:

What about 85 miles @ 70 mph?

I think for some of us (how many is hard to quantify) Nissan did not quite get it right with 24 kWh and about 3.5 miles per kWh or more at slower speeds. They came close enough for many of our purposes, but to speak up about my future purchasing so Nissan knows what I'd like, I suspect that when my Leaf lease is up, my next BEV will have about 35 to 45 kWh (as much as I can afford) and that there will be more competition for my dollars than there was in October 2012.

Well, there's a lot of variables there, and how big of a battery you need ultimately depends on how far/fast you want to get somewhere, QC capabilities of the car and QC station availability on the route you want to take.

If I look at my personal driving, most of it falls into one of these patterns in this frequency of occurrence:

1. 10-15 mile trips with 1h+ stop before return. If charging were available, could easily recoup the range used even on 16A L2 and most of the time L1.
2. 25-35 mile trips with 1h+ stop before return. If charging were available, could easily recoup at least half the range used even on 16A L2 and all the range on 30A L2.
3. 80-110 mile trips with either no stops or 1 30m lunch/dinner stop. At freeway speeds, not going to make that trip in a LEAF without hypermiling. But with a 30 min stop and a QC station or two in the right spot, the trip is fine on the LEAF battery.
4. 200-300 mile trip with 2-3 15-30 min stops. LEAF is not going to cut it on this trip. Even if it could sustain multiple QCs/day without overheating, that's 3-5 30 min QC stops. You really need almost double the battery so you can go 75+ miles between 30 min QCs. 40+ kWh should be sufficient.
5. 400-500 mile trip with 3-4 15-30 min stops. 40 kWh battery is barely sufficient here, you'll need to make extra stops. 60 kWh battery is good, or about 150 miles between charges.

For me, anything farther than 25 miles/trip is really rare. Obviously the short trips are done daily, the 25-35 mile out and back maybe once/twice a week, 80-110 mile trips every couple months and 200+ mile trips a couple times a year.

But you can easily see that everything below 110 mile trips is pretty easily done in the LEAF without much compromise IF there is sufficient and suitable charging infrastructure. Anything more than that and you want significantly more battery capacity, to the point where you probably want 40, 60 or even more.

You can also see that Tesla largely got the battery sizes right - 60 kWh is pretty much the minimum I would need for a "no compromise" car provided there is sufficient charging infrastructure.

I suspect that my driving patterns are fairly typical, but who knows - everyone probably feels that way!

It seems like a useful summary, but what I have thought for some years that many were missing, and I still think so (perhaps moreso) now that I'm a driver, is the issue of flexibility/optionality. Not all trips are planned in detail. I am definitely in the minority on a lot of fronts (no QC nearby, closest public L2 is 40 miles) but in any event I think it's clear that not all travel is planned as rigorously as all that. In my case, I have had to change my around-the-county travel thinking. Just as a minor example, if I go North to visit a friend, but then decide I want to double back to the south to go to the retail store before I return home, generally, for now, I can't do that, especially if I have stuck to 80% charging before leaving the house, or I can probably get it done without red-bar-stress if I have charged to 100% and if I started the first leg of the trip at very low speeds, but I may have to do it with an extra 30-45 minutes of driving on the new planned second leg and overall maybe about 60 minutes of extra driving for the whole trip.

 

[DaveEV]

Well, part of the point of my post was that with sufficient charging infrastructure, even those situations today which are a a pain are possible. In your example L2 at your friend's (especially 30A) probably would be sufficient or a 5-10 min QC along your route is enough is a lot of cases to give you 20-30 mi more.

 

[jlsoaz]

Well, part of the point of my post was that with sufficient charging infrastructure, even those situations today which are a a pain are possible. In your example L2 at your friend's (especially 30A) probably would be sufficient or a 5-10 min QC along your route is enough is a lot of cases to give you 20-30 mi more.

Yes, you're right, I think I am projecting a bit and not fully appreciating how an infrastructure of QC's would change the landscape from a driving and convenience point of view. In my defense, I have been busy asking for one (1) L2 charger in the county accessible to the public, so far with no success, so it is sometimes hard to imagine what life will be like (some years down the road I guess) when sufficient accessible-to-the-public charging is ubiquitous. [I have been thinking that if I want one accessible-to-the-public L2 installed, I may have to volunteer as an investor.... an interesting way to buy a substitute for a range extender... or possibly collaborate with a friend to get a plug installed that is compatible with evseupgrade.com and then get my cord upgraded.]

For the sake of discussion, if sufficient L2 and QC were ubiquitous on my regular driving routes and extending out into my occasional ones, I'd estimate that such widespread infrastructure would, depending on my exact budget ($30k/$40k/$50k, probably on a lease, but maybe on a loan?) reduce but not eliminate my desire for added range at faster speeds of travel between charges. I'm not personally up into luxury territory, but the standard I'd measure against is that my driving experience with a luxury purchase is that an expensive EV should measure up to an ICEV luxury driving experience, with few compromises, and of course lots of great positives. Even if we are talking mid-level vehicles such as the present Leaf, it's a bit hard for me to gauge just as an initial armchair projected equation, but I think I'd still spend $5k-$10k more (as mentioned, if Toyota's pricing on the RAV4 EV had been in October where it is now, I would have probably leased that despite the outside-of-California issue).

Still, I"ll have to try to think through a bit more, .... it seems like a matter of degree to me... how really good infrastructure in my community would change my perception of these matters and my marginal utility equation (sorry if I am mis-using that term, my formal Econ classes were long ago), for my budget.

 

[johnqh]

Chicken and egg.

More EV on the road will encourage more charging stations. More charging stations will enable more people to use EV.

I would like to see more charging stations at:

1. Highway resting stops. QC needed.
2. Rental car customer long term parking. If you take a long weekend trip, better rent.

 

[DaveEV]

I have been thinking that if I want one accessible-to-the-public L2 installed, I may have to volunteer as an investor.... an interesting way to buy a substitute for a range extender...

For sure, this is definitely one option. For example, owners in the Tesla community have a history of funding 70-80A L2 stations.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I have been thinking that if I want one accessible-to-the-public L2 installed, I may have to volunteer as an investor.... an interesting way to buy a substitute for a range extender...

For sure, this is definitely one option. For example, owners in the Tesla community have a history of funding 70-80A L2 stations.

Too bad you were not in the "famous" Douglas county, WA (reputedly has lowest electrical rates in the country) where they are putting in 80 KW AC chargers. Click on the "Jack Anderson" link for details.

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-make-dollar-in-ev-charging.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[N952JL]

Or have a second ICE to fit your other driving requirements and that is not something the adverage person wants.

Really?

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2012_fotw727.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This graph seems to indicate that more American households have two or more cars than have less than two.

So since "having a second ICE" is something the average person already *has*, I would say that's not much of a real stumbling block to the average person.

Not quite true. You should have said "having a second ICE is something the average FAMILY (NOT PERSON) already has." The average family might have more than one car, but the average person still only has one car. And more and more people are remaining single longer.

 

[N952JL]

So since "having a second ICE" is something the average person

Nope. The numbers you referenced were in relation to average households, not average persons.

I'm trying to understanding your point. A single person is a household. A couple is a household. The Duggar's are a household.

depends on where they get their numbers. IRS shows a single person but not household. For the IRS, to be a "household" you must be the sole support for someone else, IE a minor child. Then you are "head of household". Till then you file as Single.

Now if they go to the IRS to determine the number of household, (because that is not part of DMV records) they will not be counting singles.

 

[N952JL]

On the question of a market and product sweet spot, I think there can be more than one desirable product with more than one desirable price and range @45 or @75 mph. So, the focus on 280 or 300 miles @ 75 mph seems worth discussing at times, but I'd also add:

What about 85 miles @ 70 mph?

I think for some of us (how many is hard to quantify) Nissan did not quite get it right with 24 kWh and about 3.5 miles per kWh or more at slower speeds. They came close enough for many of our purposes, but to speak up about my future purchasing so Nissan knows what I'd like, I suspect that when my Leaf lease is up, my next BEV will have about 35 to 45 kWh (as much as I can afford) and that there will be more competition for my dollars than there was in October 2012.

Well, there's a lot of variables there, and how big of a battery you need ultimately depends on how far/fast you want to get somewhere, QC capabilities of the car and QC station availability on the route you want to take.

If I look at my personal driving, most of it falls into one of these patterns in this frequency of occurrence:

1. 10-15 mile trips with 1h+ stop before return. If charging were available, could easily recoup the range used even on 16A L2 and most of the time L1.
2. 25-35 mile trips with 1h+ stop before return. If charging were available, could easily recoup at least half the range used even on 16A L2 and all the range on 30A L2.
3. 80-110 mile trips with either no stops or 1 30m lunch/dinner stop. At freeway speeds, not going to make that trip in a LEAF without hypermiling. But with a 30 min stop and a QC station or two in the right spot, the trip is fine on the LEAF battery.
4. 200-300 mile trip with 2-3 15-30 min stops. LEAF is not going to cut it on this trip. Even if it could sustain multiple QCs/day without overheating, that's 3-5 30 min QC stops. You really need almost double the battery so you can go 75+ miles between 30 min QCs. 40+ kWh should be sufficient.
5. 400-500 mile trip with 3-4 15-30 min stops. 40 kWh battery is barely sufficient here, you'll need to make extra stops. 60 kWh battery is good, or about 150 miles between charges.

For me, anything farther than 25 miles/trip is really rare. Obviously the short trips are done daily, the 25-35 mile out and back maybe once/twice a week, 80-110 mile trips every couple months and 200+ mile trips a couple times a year.

But you can easily see that everything below 110 mile trips is pretty easily done in the LEAF without much compromise IF there is sufficient and suitable charging infrastructure. Anything more than that and you want significantly more battery capacity, to the point where you probably want 40, 60 or even more.

You can also see that Tesla largely got the battery sizes right - 60 kWh is pretty much the minimum I would need for a "no compromise" car provided there is sufficient charging infrastructure.

I suspect that my driving patterns are fairly typical, but who knows - everyone probably feels that way!

The way I answer the question of my Leaf and range is: The leaf is fine for 98% of my trips but only about 65 to 70% of my yearly mileage.

 

[N952JL]

Well, part of the point of my post was that with sufficient charging infrastructure, even those situations today which are a a pain are possible. In your example L2 at your friend's (especially 30A) probably would be sufficient or a 5-10 min QC along your route is enough is a lot of cases to give you 20-30 mi more.

Middle GA now has a grand total of 2 L2 in Macon. No QC at all and no L2 where you would want to stop. One at the court house down town, one at the college. None at any shopping centers or mails. None in any other town. So 99% or all charging must be done at home. Oh if during business hours you can stop at the Nissan dealer for L2.

 

[johnqh]

On the question of a market and product sweet spot, I think there can be more than one desirable product with more than one desirable price and range @45 or @75 mph. So, the focus on 280 or 300 miles @ 75 mph seems worth discussing at times, but I'd also add:

What about 85 miles @ 70 mph?

I think for some of us (how many is hard to quantify) Nissan did not quite get it right with 24 kWh and about 3.5 miles per kWh or more at slower speeds. They came close enough for many of our purposes, but to speak up about my future purchasing so Nissan knows what I'd like, I suspect that when my Leaf lease is up, my next BEV will have about 35 to 45 kWh (as much as I can afford) and that there will be more competition for my dollars than there was in October 2012.

Well, there's a lot of variables there, and how big of a battery you need ultimately depends on how far/fast you want to get somewhere, QC capabilities of the car and QC station availability on the route you want to take.

If I look at my personal driving, most of it falls into one of these patterns in this frequency of occurrence:

1. 10-15 mile trips with 1h+ stop before return. If charging were available, could easily recoup the range used even on 16A L2 and most of the time L1.
2. 25-35 mile trips with 1h+ stop before return. If charging were available, could easily recoup at least half the range used even on 16A L2 and all the range on 30A L2.
3. 80-110 mile trips with either no stops or 1 30m lunch/dinner stop. At freeway speeds, not going to make that trip in a LEAF without hypermiling. But with a 30 min stop and a QC station or two in the right spot, the trip is fine on the LEAF battery.
4. 200-300 mile trip with 2-3 15-30 min stops. LEAF is not going to cut it on this trip. Even if it could sustain multiple QCs/day without overheating, that's 3-5 30 min QC stops. You really need almost double the battery so you can go 75+ miles between 30 min QCs. 40+ kWh should be sufficient.
5. 400-500 mile trip with 3-4 15-30 min stops. 40 kWh battery is barely sufficient here, you'll need to make extra stops. 60 kWh battery is good, or about 150 miles between charges.

For me, anything farther than 25 miles/trip is really rare. Obviously the short trips are done daily, the 25-35 mile out and back maybe once/twice a week, 80-110 mile trips every couple months and 200+ mile trips a couple times a year.

But you can easily see that everything below 110 mile trips is pretty easily done in the LEAF without much compromise IF there is sufficient and suitable charging infrastructure. Anything more than that and you want significantly more battery capacity, to the point where you probably want 40, 60 or even more.

You can also see that Tesla largely got the battery sizes right - 60 kWh is pretty much the minimum I would need for a "no compromise" car provided there is sufficient charging infrastructure.

I suspect that my driving patterns are fairly typical, but who knows - everyone probably feels that way!

The way I answer the question of my Leaf and range is: The leaf is fine for 98% of my trips but only about 65 to 70% of my yearly mileage.

Rent a car when you take long trips.

Even if you own ICE, you should do that.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Rent a car when you take long trips.

Even if you own ICE, you should do that.

I've often thought about doing that. Definitely tempting to take a rental on my 2200 mile trip in a few weeks as opposed to my eighteen year old (but only 107,000 miles) ICE car. But the ICE car gets used little enough as it is.

If I lived where it was more convenient to get rentals I could get rid of the ICE car entirely. Those who live within pick-up/drop-off distance of rental or car sharing companies might be able to do that.