12% capacity loss in 9 months is "normal"

[vegastar]

The wallmeter test is legit, so I think he can use that value and the low range claim to fill a warranty issue with Nissan.

 

[edatoakrun]

Luke, if you wanted to do a range test, you will see some variability, that's for sure. I have done it twice, in similar weather conditions and using the same route. The first result returned 21 kWh, and the second result returned 20.3 kWh of usable battery capacity...

What method of calculating battery capacity did you use? How did you eliminate all variables in those calculations, and what are the significant uncertainties, in those 21 kWh 20.3 kWh numbers?

Isn't a 3-4% uncertainty, in available battery capacity, as determined by a range test, less than you have now, by the other methods you are attempting?

Take a drive!

You might even enjoy it.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The wallmeter test is legit, so I think he can use that value and the low range claim to fill a warranty issue with Nissan.

You can't file a warranty claim when there is no warranty on capacity. Unless part of the pack is defined as defective by Nissans terms there in no coverage and the latter has no implied coverage for capacity.

 

[davewill]

You can't file a warranty claim when there is no warranty on capacity. Unless part of the pack is defined as defective by Nissans terms there in no coverage and the latter has no implied coverage for capacity.

It's becoming more and more obvious that the car either had a capacity deficiency when new, or has developed it way too quickly. I'd file a warranty claim in a heartbeat, and use whatever dirty tricks were necessary to convince Nissan that they should honor it.

 

[vegastar]

You can't file a warranty claim when there is no warranty on capacity. Unless part of the pack is defined as defective by Nissans terms there in no coverage and the latter has no implied coverage for capacity.

It's becoming more and more obvious that the car either had a capacity deficiency when new, or has developed it way too quickly. I'd file a warranty claim in a heartbeat, and use whatever dirty tricks were necessary to convince Nissan that they should honor it.

+1

 

[Herm]

It could also be a normal variation in manufacturing.. no two cells are exactly the same. Tick may have a better chance once he losses his first bar of battery capacity... plus proper documentation.

 

[edatoakrun]

It could also be a normal variation in manufacturing.. no two cells are exactly the same. Tick may have a better chance once he losses his first bar of battery capacity... plus proper documentation.

I don't buy this definition of "normal".

All other LEAF drivers seem to have had very similar range experience from new (that's why a range chart has some validity) based on similar new, and as yet, in cars with far more miles, unreduced battery capacity.

The Catch-22 here is the lack of documentation, from Nissan, a year ago, of what now appears likely to have been a "manufacturing defect" at the time of delivery.

Seems to me, Nissan has just made an an error in not addressing the unusual circumstances, adequately.

Someone, somewhere, at some level, at Nissan USA is looking at a chart of when battery degradation "over time" becomes excessive and "sudden", is seeing 8% (?) over the first year, and saying this problem is not big enough to address as "unexpected", under the warranty.

As I suggested earlier, If it were my Leaf, I would first, try to insist that Nissan address this issue, at a higher level.

They'd have be idiots, to not want to know, exactly what is going on here, and act to prevent a source of inspiration for LEAF "battery failure" FUD, where no significant cause for concern, actually seems to exist.

 

[DaveL]

When Toyota introduce the Prius, they stood behind early adopters fixing issues quickly and without any hassles. They notified owners of free upgrades or fixes to problems for many years, all done without cost.

I had my 2001 Prius for 6 years when the accelerator pedal controller failed. Toyota replaced the pedal for free without my asking. Last year I sold the car to my son. It had 135,000 miles on it and still ran like new. Best car I've ever owned.

If Nissan wants the Leaf to be as successful in the EV market as the Prius has been in the hybrid market, they had better step up and start providing better support and service to all 2011/2012 Leaf owners.

It shouldn't be up to TickTock to definitely prove that there is a problem with his Leaf's battery pack. Rather, Nissan should either replace the weak battery modules or prove to the owners satisfaction that there isn't a problem here. After all, they are the ones with all the test equipment and detailed knowledge.

While my Leaf has not experienced this problem (yet), I hope someone in Nissan is listening to this thread and takes appropriate action quickly.

 

[DaveEV]

TickTock,

Please reconsider the suggestion made by myself, and several similar ones by others, many pages of comments back:

IMO, the most accurate and comprehensive calculation of battery capacity, can (presently) be accomplished by range tests, from 100% charge, to the lowest level your situation allows...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8331&start=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Did you post results of a capacity test, that I missed?

I disagree with this. Such a test adds more random variables to the measurement (wind, tire pressure, grade, condition of the road, driving style, etc.).

Sure - but I think most agree that a couple drives from "Full" to VLBW at least while making note of the dash mi/kWh reading will be very consistent. Getting another LEAF to do the drive with you (similar to the dealer, but needs to be done to a much lower SOC) will help verify the results - for example you can make sure the dash mi/kWh reading is within 0.1 mi/kWh of each other.

There is some variability given the granularity of the dash mi/kWh meter, but a few such tests will easily give you the confidence in the numbers.

You've already spent a lot of time digging into this - what's another couple hours of driving? Give yourself a scenic destination at the half-way point to make it more interesting.

 

[EVDRIVER]

You can't file a warranty claim when there is no warranty on capacity. Unless part of the pack is defined as defective by Nissans terms there in no coverage and the latter has no implied coverage for capacity.

It's becoming more and more obvious that the car either had a capacity deficiency when new, or has developed it way too quickly. I'd file a warranty claim in a heartbeat, and use whatever dirty tricks were necessary to convince Nissan that they should honor it.

+1

You can file a claim and make noise, my point it that there is no warranty coverage though. Filing a claim against something that has no coverage in the warranty is not going to change the warranty. Until he contacts a factory rep it will go in circles.

 

[surfingslovak]

You can file a claim and make noise, my point it that there is no warranty coverage though. Filing a claim against something that has no coverage in the warranty is not going to change the warranty. Until he contacts a factory rep it will go in circles.

You are absolutely right, and I would recommend approaching this from the lemon law angle. This would be independent from individual manufacturer policies. It may be harder to argue, but if Luke can prove and document loss of use (i.e. loss of range), and that this condition was present from day one, he may have a case. There is also the possibility that Nissan will decide to resolve the situation in customer's favor.

Here is a quote from the Arizona lemon law FAQ I posted earlier in the thread as well:

PROBLEMS COVERED

The lemon law covers any defect or condition that substantially impairs the use and
value of the motor vehicle to the consumer. This is referred to as a nonconformity. The
lemon law provides manufacturers with an affirmative defense if it can be shown that
the nonconformity is the result of abuse, neglect, or unauthorized modifications or
alterations of the motor vehicle.

 

[edatoakrun]

Nissan should either replace the weak battery modules or prove to the owners satisfaction that there isn't a problem here. ...

OK, I think there is a real problem with the LEAF in question, and Nissan should address it.

But have you considered the consequences, for Nissan and the success of all it's BEV programs, of adopting a battery warranty policy, for all LEAF owners, following that suggestion?

 

[davewill]

You can file a claim and make noise, my point it that there is no warranty coverage though. ...

Your opinion...not one I share. This, to me, does not qualify as "gradual loss of capacity" so I think it plainly DOES fall under the battery warranty. It also sounds like it's going to take a lot of noise to get Nissan to do the right thing.

 

[SanDust]

This, to me, does not qualify as "gradual loss of capacity" so I think it plainly DOES fall under the battery warranty.

I agree. Either the car as delivered had a defective battery OR there has been a dramatic and sudden loss of capacity. Either way and Nissan needs to fix it. Point of sale representations will always trump any written documentation, and there were lots of announcements of what "gradual loss of capacity" would be. So 20% after years would qualify but in less than a year? I don't think so.

Very puzzling why Nissan would let this fester.

 

[EVDRIVER]

You can file a claim and make noise, my point it that there is no warranty coverage though. ...

Your opinion...not one I share. This, to me, does not qualify as "gradual loss of capacity" so I think it plainly DOES fall under the battery warranty. It also sounds like it's going to take a lot of noise to get Nissan to do the right thing.

Please define gradual. Nissan never specifically defined gradual loss which could be 1% per month, year, etc. The fact is that Nissan may decide at their will to cover this "under warranty" but they are not obligated to do so, the warranty is very clear and has no specific terms about loss, that was clear. If you can find a definition in the warranty of gradual or acceptable loss please post it here. You can certainly disagree on what is fair but the terms of the warranty are clear and also non-specific to loss and even defect. Warranties are written like this for a reason and carefully written as well. If Nissan specifically said the pack will not have more than a 20% loss in five years (they didn't) then there is still no grounds for replacement if it has an 18% loss the second day. Good luck also proving that happened day one months after delivery . One can take the steps I have already mentioned but Nissan was clear up front that this could and will happen and I mentioned before the car was released that there would be much complaining and cries of unfairness and denial about what was clearly in writing.

What Nissan chooses to do is unknown but creating your own definition of what you think is gradual is not in the warranty as far as I have seen. You are entitled to your opinion but not a new set of facts. Even when there is a defect warranty and there is a real issue it can get sticky. This is more of an issue of proving the real loss and how one handles it with Nissan but I suspect that this is not the first time this happens. This is so typical with some first time EV owners to deny, ignore, disagree, or refute what is in clear up front because they wish to believe otherwise regardless of what they are told up front. I suspect Nissan manages this event very tightly and positive outcome is not going to come from language in the warranty to back the case for action. If I had this issue I would keep it off the forum to increase the chance of a positive outcome.

Consider this. What is the exact percentage of loss that is warrantable or acceptable? What is the time frame, miles, conditions? Where is that written so every LEAF owner is not at the dealer asking for a repair? What is the number? It does not exist for this even reason.

 

[davewill]

You can file a claim and make noise, my point it that there is no warranty coverage though. ...

Your opinion...not one I share. This, to me, does not qualify as "gradual loss of capacity" so I think it plainly DOES fall under the battery warranty. It also sounds like it's going to take a lot of noise to get Nissan to do the right thing.

Please define gradual.

It's their fault they were vague. Starting at day one doesn't sound like "gradual" and I'd be happy to see a judge decide the issue if that were the only way...but the court of public opinion is cheaper.

Consider this. What is the exact percentage of loss that is warrantable or acceptable? What is the time frame, miles, conditions? Where is that written so every LEAF owner is not at the dealer asking for a repair? What is the number? It does not exist for this even reason.

Once again, their fault. By being vague, owners have no choice but to make noise, probably over smaller amounts of degradation than they could have set by being specific. I'm sure that a public relations boondoggle would cost them more than they thought they were saving by being vague.

 

[Nubo]

... Nissan never specifically defined gradual loss which could be 1% per month, year, etc. The fact is that Nissan may decide at their will to cover this "under warranty" but they are not obligated to do so...

More of a PR problem than warranty at this point.

Seems to me it would be much more effective to find a positive outcome for a single customer than to try to explain to an already skeptical public that this kind of battery shortfall is something "normal" and to be expected.

 

[EVDRIVER]

"It's their fault". Sounds like a good opening argument for arbitration. "It's Nissan's fault they were vague and did not offer a warranty so there must be one" Very entertaining defense but not very effective or valid.

 

[Stoaty]

Consider this. What is the exact percentage of loss that is warrantable or acceptable? What is the time frame, miles, conditions? Where is that written so every LEAF owner is not at the dealer asking for a repair? What is the number? It does not exist for this even reason.

The number does not exist, but in this case we don't need to find the exact number. The loss (12.5% at last report when full charge was 246 gids) is obviously so low that if it isn't covered who would want to buy a Leaf? I'm not talking about legal definitions or a court case, but whether Nissan wants to continue to own the EV market in the future. Not covering this sort of capacity loss could end up seriously undermining public confidence in the Leaf.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Consider this. What is the exact percentage of loss that is warrantable or acceptable? What is the time frame, miles, conditions? Where is that written so every LEAF owner is not at the dealer asking for a repair? What is the number? It does not exist for this even reason.

The number does not exist, but in this case we don't need to find the exact number. The loss (12.5% at last report when full charge was 246 gids) is obviously so low that if it isn't covered who would want to buy a Leaf? I'm not talking about legal definitions or a court case, but whether Nissan wants to continue to own the EV market in the future. Not covering this sort of capacity loss could end up seriously undermining public confidence in the Leaf.

You guys can keep debating what they should or might do or what you think is fair but I am not debating that in any way. I'm simply attempting to point out the facts of the warranty and that it is very clear. Interpreting what it should be is completely irrelevant to what Nissan is obligated to do under the terms of the warranty. One can ask for anything, complain, sue, yell and more but it will not change what is covered under the warranty. One may get what they want through that process but it is not a condition of the warranty and implying or having the opinion that capacity is covered is simple nonsense. Show me where there is anything that states even 20% loss is not acceptable in year one or may not or can't be considered "gradual".
Just stating the facts not what I think it should be which is irrelevant.

Here is the exact wording from Nissan cut and pasted:

"The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under the Nissan New Vehicle Limited Warranty."..


Energy output is covered but that is not going to help your range unfortunately.