12% capacity loss in 9 months is "normal"

[vegastar]

I agree that probably your case should be dealt with someone higher in Nissan USA. The dealer may be trying is best to solve the case but I think this is a problem that Nissan Engineers should take a look. Driving two cars with two different drivers and relying in the GOM to check the battery capacity is not a reliable method.

In your logs the gids seem to be increasing significantly from October, do you notice an inprovement in range? Any Turtle to 100% recent kWh at the wall measurement to check if the capacity is really higher?

If I was in your position I would write a letter to Nissan (probabably with the help of a lawyer) describing the problem, and saying that 80% of the capacity 10 months after purchase is not acceptable and implying that you notice this lower than expected range since the beginning (to imply that this is NOT a gradual capacity loss). I would also explain that I would be using all the legal options available to resolve the issue, with all the bad publicity this would give to Nissan. The FUD spreaders would love this story (one broken ICE is bad luck, one defective battery means all batteries are bad), so I hope Nissan ears you.

 

[surfingslovak]

If I was in your position I would write a letter to Nissan (probabably with the help of a lawyer) describing the problem, and saying that 80% of the capacity 10 months after purchase is not acceptable and implying that you notice this lower than expected range since the beginning (to imply that this is NOT a gradual capacity loss).

Good advice. Hopefully, we will see an update from Luke soon, and this issue will be resolved to his satisfaction. I'm beginning to wonder if Nissan had a policy not to warranty capacity at all. I vaguely remember a clause that specifically referred to "power", not "capacity". It's also interesting that although Nissan has publicly advertised 24 kWh battery capacity, they never officially stated how much of it should be available. This could make it difficult to argue the case and seek protection under the lemon law. Note that the technical bulletin issued for the recall contained a range table, which implied 21 kWh of usable battery capacity. Perhaps that could be used as a basis for the claim, especially since the dealer has referred to "estimated range to 1 segment", which likely originated from the TB as well.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

So did you lose one of the capacity bars?
How often do you charge to 100%?
Anything odd about your driving or charging routine?

Still have all 12 capacity bars, charged to 100% about 25 times since I started keeping track in August, charge on a timer starting at midnight in an enclosed garage, park in covered parking at work, and my average speed is ~30mph (very little freeway driving).

WTF!! what is your average temps?? your driving profile is identical to mine. i have 14,000 miles and on last 3 full charges ended with 277, 277, 278 GID. i dont "notice" any range degradation but cant say i can say for sure. with two GOM adjustments to consider. until i got the SOC meter, i had no real idea of the car's capacity anyway other than i have only seen turtle one time

i am changing jobs. going from 12 mile RT commute at 35 mph to 45 miles at 60 mph. i dont expect to have range issues for YEARS and am changing based on that.

your car is not typical

**edit** ok read the rest. i would not sell or trade in your Leaf. granted the degradation at this point is alarming but you need to stick it out. based on your description you are a long way from being an extreme driver. i would hope Nissan would be interested in finding out why your car has performed so far out of anyone elses spec?

 

[klapauzius]

This is definitely bad news. If Nissan does not fix this, it will be even worse.

What was their explanation for the capacity -loss meter not showing anything?
At 20% you should have lost 2 bars?

 

[TonyWilliams]

At 20% you should have lost 2 bars?

No, the first capacity bar is 85% of capacity (15% loss)

 

[klapauzius]

I see....they tweak their meters to suit their needs...
Anyway, at 80% he should have lost one bar.
Based on the 'gids', however, it seems more like 10%, which would not show.

I think there is quite a confusion...maybe this much ado about nothing?
Why does Nissan think he lost 20%? If the gids go to 280, 250s would be well in the 10% range?

Just saw the gids reported by TickTock: 255 out of 281 would be <10%, i.e 9% loss...still much, but seems much more likely that this is some 'normal' variation?
From the other threads regarding gids, it seems that 281 would be actually on the high side.
It seems like 270-280 is the "normal" range ?

If we had the 'gid' histogram across drivers, we could specify more precisely how unusual this
low reading is...

 

[TonyWilliams]

I see....they tweak their meters to suit their needs...

Just like the GoM that defaults to some inflated range, and the temperature gauge that has huge differences in temperature per bar:

LEAF Batt Temp
Segments Degrees C (F)
12 60. (140)
11 57.5 (135.5)
10 55 (131)
9 52.5 (126.5)
8 50 (122)
7 36.8 (98.2)
6 23.5 (74.3)
5 10.3 (50.5)
4 -3 (26.6)
3 -6 (21.2
2 -9 (15.8)
1 -12 (10.4)
0 -15 (5)

 

[yoyofella]

Very interesting thread... I picked up my car around end of May also (not sure why my serial number is lower than TICKTOCK and SLOVAK, but I get the feeling that I'm not going as far as I use to.

Seems like we need to start collecting data within the Leaf community so we can know the distribution of GID@max charge for a larger sample size.

Instead of having everyone build/buy a SOC meter, perhaps during the next BayLEAF meeting (and SOCAL meeting) a member can bring their SOC meter and the rest of us an all try to charge to full and measure how many GID each of pack can store. that should be a quick way to get a larger sample size.

 

[Nubo]

Is there a document of all of the cell-pair voltages? Hard to imagine that the entire pack is weak. I would really push for that documentation to find out what the weaker module(s) look like and get them replaced despite Nissan's prognosis. Their statement that you are experiencing "normal" 6-mo degradation flies in the face of every experience I've read here, and they seem to be ignoring the fact that you MEASURED this effect last fall. I would definitely start chewing my way up their food chain and be making noises about publication.

The fact that your GIDs are increasing is interesting though. Has that effect leveled off yet?

 

[gbarry42]

What Nubo said. Given all the foregoing, I would insist on the cell-pair tests and results. That would tell if one module is causing the problem.

Also, you stated in another thread that at 80% it was pretty close to normal. This makes me wonder about the charger. Maybe it does not finish charging properly...you're not really getting to 100%?

 

[Volt3939]

Having worked for a well known Japanese company for decades, it does not surprise me that Nissan seems to have a "You bought it, You live with it" mindset. I spent years having my reports being edited by our in house Japanese "liaison", who's main purpose seemed to be making sure that quality problems did NOT get reported to the home office.

In following the Volt discussions, there have been several reports of battery error codes as simple as a bad temp sensor resulting in warranty replacement of the complete battery assembly. It makes sense if you want to quickly find a solution and prevent future problems to swap out any outliers and research the heck out of them, but that approach is something the American branch of the company I was at continually had to do on their own. The home office always took the approach of blaming the messenger, and would just issue new (lower) specs to cover what they were in fact producing. (Individually, of course, the engineering staff would use back channels to try and figure things out and find remedies, but this was not an official policy, just hard working people that took pride in their work. Once they had identified a problem in production they would face internal barriers again in trying to get solutions implemented. More often than not, they failed to effect any change in the status quo.)

Recently read the experiences of an engineer that had spent considerable time at both GM and a rival Japanese company. He described the slow, careful approach to design changes at the Japanese company, the unwillingness to abandon a tried and true design that sells, vs the GM approach of tossing out ideas and even successful designs in favor of the new, untried idea, just to follow it as far as it would take them. (Make what you will of that, I don't think it applies to management...)

I believe it is this innovative thinking that is missing in the middle and upper levels of a lot of Japanese companies that allows the very sort of marketing blunders that not immediately replacing a suspect battery is.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Bottom line in the end is a Lemon law will not help as nothing is broken ad being repeatedly fixed. Unless modules keep failing over and over. Contrary to what some people think, deny, or hope, there is no capacity warranty for the pack of any kind. There is no explicit written warranty for any capacity guarantee even if you loose 50% in the first six months as long as the power of the pack is there. If Nissan was truly as confident about the pack as they imply at times there would have been some capacity warranty of some kind but there is none affording them the latitude to negotiate and mitigate as needed or not at all. No surprise though.

 

[surfingslovak]

Interesting insights! Here is a quote from the Arizona lemon law FAQ I posted earlier in the thread. Didn't have to deal with this type of thing before, but I've heard that my friend's VW was bought back by the manufacturer couple of years ago. Not sure what the problem was, but it does happen.

PROBLEMS COVERED

The lemon law covers any defect or condition that substantially impairs the use and
value of the motor vehicle to the consumer. This is referred to as a nonconformity. The
lemon law provides manufacturers with an affirmative defense if it can be shown that
the nonconformity is the result of abuse, neglect, or unauthorized modifications or
alterations of the motor vehicle.

 

[LEAFer]

The Arizona heat ( I don't see this mentioned yet above ) will have a negative effect. Still, this case is unusual ... and gets me back to recommending a BASELINE battery health report at vehicle delivery.

 

[TickTock]

Is there a document of all of the cell-pair voltages? Hard to imagine that the entire pack is weak. I would really push for that documentation to find out what the weaker module(s) look like and get them replaced despite Nissan's prognosis. Their statement that you are experiencing "normal" 6-mo degradation flies in the face of every experience I've read here, and they seem to be ignoring the fact that you MEASURED this effect last fall. I would definitely start chewing my way up their food chain and be making noises about publication.

The fact that your GIDs are increasing is interesting though. Has that effect leveled off yet?

We did do the cell pair test. He actually let me watch as he paged through all the cell pairs and we found the lowest cell (25) at 3670mV and the highest was 3730mV (I rounded off the last digit - do not recall if it was 3668 or 3666 and he wouldn't let me take pictures but the delta was 60 mV). I appears he ran it again since in the email I received (beginning of this thread), he indicated different numbers.

The ramp does appear to be leveling off. Here is my 80% and 100% charge levels starting mid September:

 

[kubel]

This sounds like material for an article on autobloggreen or by Chelsea Sexton. I think your best weapon against Nissan is the threat of negative publicity. I would even go so far as to alert Nissan USA (e.g., Mark Perry) that this is what you plan to do if you don't get satisfaction. Your car is clearly an outlier, and Nissan is trying to keep from doing any kind of repair of marginal battery packs, even when the problem occurs in the first year. While you don't want to hurt the Leaf, facts is facts. Nissan needs to put up or shut up.

I completely agree. There are EV haters in the news just waiting to gobble up this story.

I knew that Nissan wasn't going to warranty the car from normal capacity loss (that's completely understandable), but if 20% capacity loss in 9 months is "normal" according to Nissan, and thus won't be covered, I will not take delivery of my LEAF and will simply wait for a competitors product.

 

[mkjayakumar]

I am reading this thread with total disappointment. Not necessarily at the battery problem the original poster is seeing, but on Nissans response. They have a wonderful car here, a real winner, and they shouldn't blow it away thru some stupid posturing.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I am reading this thread with total disappointment. Not necessarily at the battery problem the original poster is seeing, but on Nissans response. They have a wonderful car here, a real winner, and they shouldn't blow it away thru some stupid posturing.

since i am not part of the process i have to say i might not be the best to speak on this but i think we have gone waaaay to far to the possibility of "ass'ing" ourselves on this subject.

i prefer to think that Nissan is taking a bit of "wait and see" but is probably monitoring the car very closely. now Tick Tock has not said whether he participates in Carwings or not. i do know a lot of people do not for whatever reason and if he isnt, this might be a mistake because it is only ammunition for his cause.

i "have" to think that Nissan would not let an early adopter flounder. it is still "under" 80 % in less than 5 years.

keep in mind the options for Nissan's response;

1) its a problem this requires immediate action on their part to replace the part. a part that is in very short supply. a part that will be manufactured in excess of demand in 10 months.

2) Lets wait and see how things progress. you have no range issues yet. you are still able to do the driving you bought the Leaf for now this allows them to monitor the progress, see if the rate of degradation continues and whether its the pack, the environment or a support system issue. either way, if it continues, replace the pack with a US version from TN.

as others have stated, it would be beyond foolish for them to do anything else

 

[klapauzius]

Its not clear from the gids for 100% charge, that there is a 20% loss or am I misreading the posted curve? It looks like it goes up into 250s-260s?

 

[Stoaty]

After re-reading this thread, I am going to change my stance a bit:

1) It appears that you Gid count was low from the start, though oddly has risen with time. I would say that your car has a 9.3% loss (255/281) over 9 months, which I would consider high. Mine is at 269 Gids (4.3% loss) after a full charge after 9 months of use (but I have fewer miles). From what I have seen on the forum so far, I would say my Gid count is at the lower end of "normal" for the Leaf.

2) I don't think you can use the miles remaining on the GOM to conclude anything, especially since the demo Leaf may have the updated GOM estimates.

3) As I found out when testing my Leaf, you have to drive the Leaf through a very large part of its range in order to get true capacity. In that regard, how many miles is your commute, what is the miles/kWh for your commute (on the dash), and what is your typical starting and ending Gid count? My guess is that you will still be an outlier, but I doubt this will show a 20% loss.