Cor
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:27 am

Valdemar wrote:Interesting, I thoughts there were reports stating the car is put into restricted power output mode after a "bootleg" battery is installed, it can be driven but it won't go faster than 30mph or so.

Ah, thanks for the warning, I did not have the vehicle up to speed yet.
Indeed, the car accelerates fine until 25 and then it flattens out and will not reach 30 MPH until it is paired.
It looks like the pairing is simply writing the VIN into the BMS, does anyone know if that can be done by anyone else than Nissan?
No problem to go to the dealer, but I need to do this now on 2 cars, so rather avoid both cost and questions.

Valdemar
Posts: 2598
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:45 am

Dealer is your best bet. Problem is the pairing process is slightly more complicated than you think as it requires a special digital key card that comes with a new battery and after a new pack is installed the card has to be returned to Nissan, They may have to request it from Nissan in a case like this. Unless I missed it there were no confirmed reports so far a dealer helped in such a situation, so you'll be the first to try it and I'm very much interested to learn how it turns out.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

Tonyt
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:36 pm
Delivery Date: 30 May 2011
Location: OC California

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:38 am

Cor wrote:Unrelated but relevant is that Nissan has apparently tried to hide pack capacity loss when they reprogrammed the Leaf,
because the 2011 pack has only 52.68 Ah capacity (was originally 64 Ah) so the SoH is 80% and Hx is only 63%
yet the Leaf displays 11 bars which seems wildly optimistic for a loss of 11.32 / 64 = 17.7% capacity. NOTE that this is more than 1/6 of total battery capacity that is lost, so one would reasonably expect that of 12 bars, at least 2 would have disappeared after more than 1/6th loss as that is more than 2/12th: at least 2 bars out of 12. Hmmmm...
Anyway, this pack is still doing OK for a 2011 pack, apparently not suffered much from heat.


52.6 should be right on the threshold of loosing the second bar. I have a 52.52 aH battery in a 2013 that is waiting to loose it's second bar. Hopeing the 3rd and 4th bars don't hang on so long....
The cars I drive on a regular basis.

2011 Leaf SL, bought as 4 bar looser!
2013 Tesla S85
2015 Fusion Energi, Gas guzzler!
2016 Fiat 500e, Lease is almost over
2016 Spark EV, Lease is almost over

Cor
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:58 am

Valdemar wrote:Dealer is your best bet. Problem is the pairing process is slightly more complicated than you think as it requires a special digital key card that comes with a new battery and after a new pack is installed the card has to be returned to Nissan, They may have to request it from Nissan in a case like this. Unless I missed it there were no confirmed reports so far a dealer helped in such a situation, so you'll be the first to try it and I'm very much interested to learn how it turns out.

OK, we will ask the dealer about this and I will probably end up dropping the pack one more time,
going through the nasty effort of opening it (the 2013+ packs are closed with a sealant all around and only a few bolts, whereas
the 2011-2012 packs have a solid rubber gasket and a bolt every 6 inch to keep the pack closed)
then I will need to swap all contents into an empty 2011 shell (since the gasket will be ruined) and add the original BMS that is already
paired to the car, so it will be recognized and the car will be happy to operate normally again.
Then I will also have my car's BMS back so I can then take that to add to my car's pack and have my salvage Leaf be a little more happy also.

Valdemar
Posts: 2598
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:36 pm

Hopefully this is something your dealer can help with. I spoke to mine some time ago and they said swapping packs between 2 2011 cars is something they can easily do. I didn't follow up so take it with a grain of salt as dealers are known to be not very knowledgeable about Leafs. If the first dealer refuses try another.

Additional thoughts on pack surgery,

1. You will have to be creative with mounting 2015 modules in the 2011 housing as the mechanical design has changed. I heard it's doable but not exactly bolt-on

2. Read somewhere that newer modules charge to higher voltage, so while some capacity might be inaccessible when using 2015 modules + 2011 BMS it should be safe, the reverse can be unsafe, I suggest you research it more before starting using 2011 modules with 2015 BMS, if that is what you plan to do anyway.

3. It'll take some time for the BMS to learn the new modules, so the GOM will be off. You may want to see a dealer after anyway to perform BMS reset.


Edit:
4. Hopefully the restricted power mode is not sticky, that is once you put the original BMS everything will be back to normal.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

Cor
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:05 pm

Valdemar wrote:Hopefully this is something your dealer can help with. I spoke to mine some time ago and they said swapping packs between 2 2011 cars is something they can easily do. I didn't follow up so take it with a grain of salt as dealers are known to be not very knowledgeable about Leafs. If the first dealer refuses try another.

Additional thoughts on pack surgery,

1. You will have to be creative with mounting 2015 modules in the 2011 housing as the mechanical design has changed. I heard it's doable but not exactly bolt-on

2. Read somewhere that newer modules charge to higher voltage, so while some capacity might be inaccessible when using 2015 modules + 2011 BMS it should be safe, the reverse can be unsafe, I suggest you research it more before starting using 2011 modules with 2015 BMS, if that is what you plan to do anyway.

3. It'll take some time for the BMS to learn the new modules, so the GOM will be off. You may want to see a dealer after anyway to perform BMS reset.

Edit:
4. Hopefully the restricted power mode is not sticky, that is once you put the original BMS everything will be back to normal.

Hi Valdemar,
I am happy to report that after putting the original (2011) BMS from my neighbor's car with the Lizard cells into the old 2011 shell (the 2015 shell gets destroyed when you open it, since it is glued shut, good that I had another complete 2011 pack in shell sitting around) that the power restriction was gone, no errors were reported and the car responded normally again. Obviously the old BMS still reported the old Ah capacity, it has to re-learn the new capacity. Interestingly it immediately showed 10 bars whereas the old pack was down to 9 bars...
The neighbors were overjoyed when I gave them their 2011 back, knowing that they will soon again see 12 bars and 66 Ah capacity!

The mounting of the cells (brackets) is identical between 2011 and 2015, the same bolt holes for the brackets. What is *not* identical is the wiring or the wiring routing. Even the bus bars are routed slightly different on the horizontal stacks - instead of going left to right across the 4-high stack 4 times, the bus bars follow the module stacks and only jump across on the top and the bottom. The result is that the mounting of the connections is at slightly different locations, also the contactors have a different layout, the wiring is routed in a more logical way around the battery box and there have been several other component and weight saving changes.
So, in order to play it safe, I removed the 2015 wiring completely from the Lizard pack,
moved the lizard pack into the 2011 shell as bare modules, then added the original 2011 wiring, service disconnect, contactors and front plugs and finally the original 2011 BMS. The only thing I had to modify were the power connections on the 24 vertical modules, since the relayouted mechanics interfered with the positioning of the contacts from the 2011 pack, so I used the 2015 contacts and I will have to be
creative to use the 2011 power contacts with the 2015 wiring in my own Leaf, so that I can re-use the 2015 BMS that is paired to my car.
But that is a concern for another day, I am happy that I was able to put the lizard modules into a 2011 shell and swap wiring without
any problems.
I will have to be careful to charge only to 80% when I used the 2015 BMS on the 2011 pack in my own Leaf.
To complicate things (but make logistics much simpler) this was not a simple swap between 2 Leafs, but a 3-way exchange,
I had already bought a Leaf pack from Washington state (cool, so it still has decent capacity) which I mounted in my own Leaf
after I dropped its 2015 pack, so that my Leaf could move and not sit disabled in the garage, otherwise I would not have place to put the neighbor's Leaf in there also *and* work on 2 battery packs, since I have a 2-car garage. With my own Leaf out of the garage, the neighbor's Leaf and 2 battery packs were manageable.
Since the neighbor's pack was down to 75% (48Ah) I removed those cells from the shell (they expanded quite a bit when releasing the compression bolts - it would not be possible to simply bolt it together again, I would need clamps to compress those cells again, so much internal pressure was present in those cells) and I re-used the empty shell to put the Lizard modules in after destroying the 2015 shell.

Good thing is that I now also have my BMS back, so I can make my Leaf happy by putting the BMS + wiring onto the Washington state pack.

Main reason I did the swap myself (which cost me 2 full days of slaving on cutting the 2015 pack open, undoing all bolts from every module and every part, also undoing every bolt in the old 2011 pack, moving those modules, putting the 2015 modules into that shell, re-thinking the wiring options, removing the sensing wiring from the 24-module stack and swapping it with the old bus bars, redoing every single bolt in the pack, double-checking all voltages in the pack and finally plugging in the original BMS - the main reason for this was that the dealer said that he was not sure if they could re-program a used battery, they had only requested keys for new packs from Nissan, never for an existing pack that was swapped. Only Dealers can do this BTW, I asked two independent shops and it requires access to official Nissan (corporate?) servers, which nobody has except the dealers.
Also the dealer wanted $700 for the pack mounting and $300 for the (attempt) to reprogram the BMS.
Since I knew I could guarantee that it would work by swapping BMS, I took that route and saved money (just spent time).

BTW, anyone considering opening a battery pack: be aware that inside the shell you find 400 Volts of lethal potential, so if you do not know how to operate a Volt Meter and have no experience working on high voltage and are very aware of how to work safely on High Voltage, please do not open the pack.
As long as the pack is closed and the CAN plug not connected, there is no chance to get any power outside so you can safely work on the car and handle the battery shell. But know what you are doing when you open the shell!
And high voltage gloves alone do not make you safe, since it is easy to hurt yourself when accidentally shorting the pack or cause other accidents. Or when you are safe, but someone else comes by and touches high voltage.
In fact, I do not have high voltage gloves, I work on the pack with bare hands and steel tools. But I do know exactly what I am doing and I use a digital voltmeter almost every day.

Valdemar
Posts: 2598
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:03 am

Wow, congrats on getting out more or less cleanly out of this mess! Hopefully one day someone will figure out how to swap packs as a unit.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

User avatar
SalisburySam
Gold Member
Posts: 303
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 24 Feb 2012
Leaf Number: 018156
Location: Salisbury, NC

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:46 am

Cor: respect.
Nissan 2012 LEAF SL, 13,500 miles, 9 bars, 70.4% SOH, 46.19 Ahr

Tesla Model 3: Long Range | Extended AutoPilot | Full Self-Driving
Delivered: July, 2018 | 7,800 miles
Get 1000 miles free Supercharging when you buy: https://ts.la/john70942

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
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Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:38 am

Great work, and I hope you or someone else can swap my pack (hopefully, without all the labor of disassembly/reassembly) if I eventually decide I want to replace my OE pack.

But by doing all that extra work, I believe you made important observations of how the BMS/Lithium Battery Controller estimates and reports battery capacity.

Cor wrote:... I am happy to report that after putting the original (2011) BMS from my neighbor's car with the Lizard cells into the old 2011 shell (the 2015 shell gets destroyed when you open it, since it is glued shut, good that I had another complete 2011 pack in shell sitting around) that the power restriction was gone, no errors were reported and the car responded normally again. Obviously the old BMS still reported the old Ah capacity, it has to re-learn the new capacity. Interestingly it immediately showed 10 bars whereas the old pack was down to 9 bars...
The neighbors were overjoyed when I gave them their 2011 back, knowing that they will soon again see 12 bars and 66 Ah capacity!...

Please report back if that happens, or whatever else the BMS/LBC reports.

Nissan apparently changed the way the BMS/LBC (and the dash capacity bar display?) estimates battery pack capacity loss at least once, in early 2013.

Nissan stated this was to correct the overestimation of capacity loss The BMS/LBC showed in 2011 to (early) 2013 LEAFs, reflected by the premature (and overly "pessimistic") loss of battery capacity bars on the dash.

Therefore, IMO it would not be surprising if the Ah reports and dash display using a 2011 BMC/LBC never match those you got for the same modules installed by Nissan in another 2011 LEAF, using another BMS/LBC.

So, from your work, we now know the same modules from a pack replaced by Nissan in 2015, in a 2011 LEAF:

Showed 12 capacity bars (and had the Ah reports as quoted below) when still installed in that 2015 replacement pack, using its 2015 replacement BMS/LBC, in your donor 2011 LEAF.

Showed 11 capacity bars (and had the Ah reports as quoted below) when installed in another 2011 LEAF, still using the BMS/LBC Nissan replaced in 2015.

And showed 10 capacity bars (so far) when installed in that same LEAF, using its original equipment 2011 BMS/LBC.

Is all that right?

=edatoakrun
="Cor"
...Unrelated but relevant is that Nissan has apparently tried to hide pack capacity loss when they reprogrammed the Leaf,
because the 2011 pack has only 52.68 Ah capacity (was originally 64 Ah) so the SoH is 80% and Hx is only 63%
yet the Leaf displays 11 bars which seems wildly optimistic for a loss of 11.32 / 64 = 17.7% capacity. NOTE that this is more than 1/6 of total battery capacity that is lost, so one would reasonably expect that of 12 bars, at least 2 would have disappeared after more than 1/6th loss as that is more than 2/12th: at least 2 bars out of 12. Hmmmm...
Anyway, this pack is still doing OK for a 2011 pack, apparently not suffered much from heat

Do I understand you correctly, that the 2015 replacement pack displayed 66.14 Ah when in the totaled LEAF, and displayed only 52.58 Ah and 11 capacity bars on the dash, after you installed it in your neighbor's 2011?...
no condition is permanent

Cor
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:43 pm

edatoakrun wrote:So, from your work, we now know the same modules from a pack replaced by Nissan in 2015, in a 2011 LEAF:

Showed 12 capacity bars (and had the Ah reports as quoted below) when still installed in that 2015 replacement pack, using its 2015 replacement BMS/LBC, in your donor 2011 LEAF.

Showed 11 capacity bars (and had the Ah reports as quoted below) when installed in another 2011 LEAF, still using the BMS/LBC Nissan replaced in 2015.

And showed 10 capacity bars (so far) when installed in that same LEAF, using its original equipment 2011 BMS/LBC.

Is all that right?

I am afraid that I forgot to correct earlier confusion in this thread when someone quoted my reporting 11 bars in my 2011 Leaf, that was *not* the 66Ah 2015 pack, but the (in my opinion overly *optimistic*) display of the 52.68Ah remaining in the "Washington State" original 2011 pack.
I calculated that 52.68 out of 64Ah should be 9 or 10 bars depending on rounding, but obviously Nissan did want to show as positive as possible results, that is why they probably base the newer software bar display on some "guaranteed new battery minimum capacity" instead of the supposed nominal 64 Ah capacity.

Anyway, the 2015 pack with 2015 BMS showed 66 Ah and the same cells with an original 2011 BMS that was trained to see a 48Ah pack and 9 bars, still showed 48Ah (because it still needs to learn the new capacity) but displayed 10 bars immediately without any charging or driving,
just disconnect from its own pack, reconnect to the new pack and turn the car on and run LeafSpy.
I am indeed interested to see how quickly it will re-learn its capacity.
I noticed this morning that my neighbors have taken the Leaf out today, so I will ask them in a couple days what they see the car report. Luckily they are enough nerds to also run LeafSpy, in fact I did not need to plug my ELM 327 into their car, they have their dongle connected permanently, I only needed to pair it to my Android phone.

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