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TonyWilliams
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Re: Chevrolet to Produce Spark EV All-Electric Vehicle

Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:56 pm

So to sum up, the Frankenplug consortium could just do it, and I agree!!! They won't because few of them are really backing EVs, and BMW is the only real wild card from my perspective.

I don't see them having volume of sales to support such a venture like Tesla and Nissan have begun. Oh, yes. I really didn't like my ten years of dreary Fremont!!! After experiencing SoCal weather previously, and the crazy Bay Area traffic of 1980's - 1990's and insane housing prices, yup, I was very exciting to go to San Diego in 1998. I won't likely ever leave here.

I heard they had some new car company come to Fremont?

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Chevrolet to Produce Spark EV All-Electric Vehicle

Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:55 am

GRA wrote:Because most of the 'difficulty' as far as Nissan putting any in themselves was due to when they decided to do it, not technical factors. After all, Tesla has amply demonstrated that it can be done far faster, and with a tiny fraction of the financial resources available to Nissan/Mitsubishi or a single member of the SAE consortium members, let alone a group of them.



wow, this is a great example of a statement that is true if a litany of circumstances prevailed. as we know, Nissan and Tesla couldnt possibly be more different and that includes how they get nearly anything done. Now lets not take my statement to mean that Tesla is doing it right and Nissan is doing it wrong. Both have SOPs in place that are much different.

In Tesla's case. they have no dealers to contend with so all the decisions are made by them. One might not think that is such a big deal but it really makes all the difference. the other thing is placement. no matter who you talk to, there will be plenty on both sides who will think the placement of the chargers is far from ideal or complete.

In Nissan's case. they have to balance their relationship with the dealers along with placement of the chargers. There is a value to having chargers in town where all the people live so arguments that local owners would never use local fast chargers is simply very wrong. Anyone who has local chargers in their area can attest to that.

Now the issue of having chargers in destination areas or outside town is a valid one but Nissan's ability to put one at a remote dealer that has 1/10th the LEAF sales of a much larger one in town is greatly hampered. They simply can t do that no matter how right the decision because they must maintain a relationship with the dealer.

So to say that deploying these chargers is an easy job because Tesla, answering to no one but themselves, has deployed what ??? a half dozen? or maybe its a dozen now? is ridiculous
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GRA
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Re: Chevrolet to Produce Spark EV All-Electric Vehicle

Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:11 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:So to sum up, the Frankenplug consortium could just do it, and I agree!!! They won't because few of them are really backing EVs, and BMW is the only real wild card from my perspective.

I don't see them having volume of sales to support such a venture like Tesla and Nissan have begun. Oh, yes. I really didn't like my ten years of dreary Fremont!!! After experiencing SoCal weather previously, and the crazy Bay Area traffic of 1980's - 1990's and insane housing prices, yup, I was very exciting to go to San Diego in 1998. I won't likely ever leave here.

I heard they had some new car company come to Fremont?

Total agreement on Fremont, although I don't think I ever mentally defined it as dreary. I had friends who used to live there (he worked at OAK Center too, and says he remembers you), and every time I'd go there I felt like I was in one of those endless non-descript L.A. suburbs, where cookie-cutter housing tract is succeeded by cookie-cutter strip mall ad nauseum, and the only way you can tell if you've left one city and entered another is because the city names on the street signs have changed. There's just no sense of uniqueness to it; it needs some funk.
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GRA
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Re: Chevrolet to Produce Spark EV All-Electric Vehicle

Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:42 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
GRA wrote:Because most of the 'difficulty' as far as Nissan putting any in themselves was due to when they decided to do it, not technical factors. After all, Tesla has amply demonstrated that it can be done far faster, and with a tiny fraction of the financial resources available to Nissan/Mitsubishi or a single member of the SAE consortium members, let alone a group of them.

wow, this is a great example of a statement that is true if a litany of circumstances prevailed. as we know, Nissan and Tesla couldnt possibly be more different and that includes how they get nearly anything done. Now lets not take my statement to mean that Tesla is doing it right and Nissan is doing it wrong. Both have SOPs in place that are much different.

In Tesla's case. they have no dealers to contend with so all the decisions are made by them. One might not think that is such a big deal but it really makes all the difference. the other thing is placement. no matter who you talk to, there will be plenty on both sides who will think the placement of the chargers is far from ideal or complete.

In Nissan's case. they have to balance their relationship with the dealers along with placement of the chargers. There is a value to having chargers in town where all the people live so arguments that local owners would never use local fast chargers is simply very wrong. Anyone who has local chargers in their area can attest to that.

Now the issue of having chargers in destination areas or outside town is a valid one but Nissan's ability to put one at a remote dealer that has 1/10th the LEAF sales of a much larger one in town is greatly hampered. They simply can t do that no matter how right the decision because they must maintain a relationship with the dealer.

So to say that deploying these chargers is an easy job because Tesla, answering to no one but themselves, has deployed what ??? a half dozen? or maybe its a dozen now? is ridiculous

Dave, I fail to see how Nissan's relationship with its dealers enters into this at all. Most of the dealers don't want the chargers, so they have no reason to complain if Nissan puts them elsewhere. It's not going to take any business from them; they want to sell cars, not electricity. Quite frankly, I think putting free chargers in at dealers when they're only going to be available during business hours is a huge mistake, and IMO it makes far more sense to locate pay chargers in better locations with 24/7 access, even though the siting costs more. I'm in full agreement with Tony that free QCs are a major error if you want to grow the infrastructure. And for heaven's sake, don't be like Blink and only put in a single charger in each location.

There's nothing other than money stopping Nissan or any/all members of the consortium from either forming a subsidiary to do this, or joining with one of the already existing networks and just paying for the units. It's a matter of choice, not feasibility. We know that the three biggest handicaps to BEV adoption are price, range and infrastructure. The range and price are more or less fixed at any given time, so adding infrastructure is about the only way to immediately enhance the real and perceived utility of BEVs (boosting sales and affecting the price/range through economies of scale). The question is which companies are smart enough to see this. We know Tesla is, Nissan has belatedly reached that conclusion, and we'll see on the SAE companies.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

scottf200
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Re: Chevrolet to Produce Spark EV All-Electric Vehicle

Wed May 01, 2013 10:32 pm

http://insideevs.com/2014-chevy-spark-e ... -combined/

Peter Savagian
May 1, 2013 at 12:21 pm
I am the general director for Electric Drives and Electrification Systems Engineering at General Motors. I need to disabuse you of the mistaken notion that this motor has less than 400 ftlb of Torque. The Spark EV motor is designed and manufactured by GM.
This motor makes 540 Nm (402 ftlbf) of Torque at stall and out to about 2000 rpm. This is not gear- multiplied axle torque, but actual motor shaft torque.

The very high torque is motor performance that we are very proud of, and customers will notice the difference: (It has a gear reduction of 3.18 to 1, so the axle torque is the product of these two). This is a very low numerical reduction ratio, which has several great benefits – 1) Feels much better to drive. 3.18:1 is less than half of the reduction of all other EVs. This makes for extraordinarly low driveline inertia, less than 1/5 of the driveline inertia of the Nissan Leaf and 1/4 that of the Fiat 500 EV. Their cars feel like you are driving around in second gear all day long; ours feels like fourth gear. 2) Lower gear mesh, spinning losses, and lower high speed electromagnetic losses mean very high drive unit efficiency. The Spark EV efficiency from DC current to delivered Wheel torque is 85% averaged over the city driving schedule and 92% when averaged over the highway schedule. This is the highest in the industry, and that is one of the reasons why the Spark EV sets the benchmark for most efficient car.


Google search turned up:
Peter Savagian (suh vah’ jhin) - General Motors
http://www.sae.org/servlets/techSession ... ve+Quality
OEM Reports: The Chevrolet Spark EV 1ET35 Drive Unit - Performance, Efficiency, and Drive Quality
Pete serves as Engineering Director of GM’s Electrification Architecture and Electric Motor Release Center. For the past 12 years, in various roles, he has managed product development and advanced engineering for GM’s hybrid systems, including hybrid architecture development, electric drive component development, systems engineering, systems analysis, and control algorithm development. Pete has worked on electric vehicle systems since 1990. Prior to his current assignment, Pete was Chief Engineer for GM’s EV1 Electric Vehicle Drive Unit and Power Electronics at General Motors and at Delco Electronics. In the past, he has worked at Hughes Aircraft Company and Sundstrand Aviation in various engineering roles.
Pete holds a BS in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Wisconsin, a MS in Operations Research Engineering from the University of Southern California, and an MBA from Duke University.

Image
Last edited by scottf200 on Thu May 02, 2013 10:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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KeiJidosha
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Re: Chevrolet to Produce Spark EV All-Electric Vehicle

Thu May 02, 2013 10:17 am

scottf200 wrote:http://insideevs.com/2014-chevy-spark-ev-gets-epa-range-rating-of-82-miles-119-mpge-combined/

Peter Savagian
May 1, 2013 at 12:21 pm
I am the general director for Electric Drives and Electrification Systems Engineering at General Motors. I need to disabuse you of the mistaken notion that this motor has less than 400 ftlb of Torque. The Spark EV motor is designed and manufactured by GM.
This motor makes 540 Nm (402 ftlbf) of Torque at stall and out to about 2000 rpm. This is not gear- multiplied axle torque, but actual motor shaft torque.

The very high torque is motor performance that we are very proud of, and customers will notice the difference: (It has a gear reduction of 3.18 to 1, so the axle torque is the product of these two).

Spark EV - 402FtLb torque thru 3.18:1 drive = 1,278FtLbs axle torque
Fit EV - 189FtLb torque thru 8.05:1 drive = 1,521FtLbs axle torque
LEAF - 207FtLb torque thru 7.94:1 drive – 1,643FtLbs axle torque

Torque is flat to 2,000 rpm which is 41 mph on the Spark EV.
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scottf200
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Re: Chevrolet to Produce Spark EV All-Electric Vehicle

Thu May 02, 2013 10:50 am

KeiJidosha wrote:Spark_EV - 402FtLb torque thru 3.18:1 drive = 1,278FtLbs axle torque
Fit_EV - 189FtLb torque thru 8.05:1 drive = 1,521FtLbs axle torque
LEAF - 207FtLb torque thru 7.94:1 drive – 1,643FtLbs axle torque

Torque is flat to 2,000 rpm which is 41 mph on the Spark_EV.

The more interesting piece is the reason they did it that way which he described:
scottf200 wrote:Peter Savagian
May 1, 2013 at 12:21 pm
<snip>This is a very low numerical reduction ratio, which has several great benefits – 1) Feels much better to drive. 3.18:1 is less than half of the reduction of all other EVs. This makes for extraordinarly low driveline inertia, less than 1/5 of the driveline inertia of the Nissan Leaf and 1/4 that of the Fiat 500 EV. Their cars feel like you are driving around in second gear all day long; ours feels like fourth gear. 2) Lower gear mesh, spinning losses, and lower high speed electromagnetic losses mean very high drive unit efficiency. The Spark EV efficiency from DC current to delivered Wheel torque is 85% averaged over the city driving schedule and 92% when averaged over the highway schedule. This is the highest in the industry, and that is one of the reasons why the Spark EV sets the benchmark for most efficient car.
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Volt = 53+ mile BEV up to 100 MPH, then 40 MPG hybrid with a 9 gal gas tank
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hyperlexis
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Re: Chevrolet to Produce Spark EV All-Electric Vehicle

Thu May 02, 2013 11:12 am

Honestly, getting into a war over the SAE Frankenplug is so counterproductive -- some makers will pick it (GM) and some will not, at least not initially. (Nissan, Mitsubishi, Tesla).

What the real call for action should be would be for EV owners to demand either equal access (One charger, with two QC plugs mandated -- SAE and Chademo), or owners should be demanding the manufacturers at least provide adaptors.

Tesla has various plug adaptors for its vehicles, including for Chademo stations, so if they can engineer it, then there is no reason that Nissan can't devise a Frankenplug adaptor, or GM devise a Chademo adaptor.

The Spark looks like a great little EV and a good start for GM. Hopefully they will come up with a way it can use existing Chademo chargers.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Chevrolet to Produce Spark EV All-Electric Vehicle

Fri May 03, 2013 11:28 am

hyperlexis wrote:Tesla has various plug adaptors for its vehicles, including for Chademo stations, so if they can engineer it, then there is no reason that Nissan can't devise a Frankenplug adaptor, or GM devise a Chademo adaptor.

The Spark looks like a great little EV and a good start for GM. Hopefully they will come up with a way it can use existing Chademo chargers.


I seriously doubt GM went through all this effort to alienate Nissan as the world leader in EV's to then build an adapter to use the CHAdeMO used by Nissan. Sorry, that's not in the cards.

Tesla does not yet have a CHAdeMO adapter, and so far have only mentioned availability in Japan anyway. Make no mistake, Tesla is an SAE member and were intimately involved with the Frankenplug brains. They just didn't adapt the gigantic plug.

But, yes, folks will build and sell adapters should enough EV's materialize. For the Tesla folks, obviously a Tesla car to Frankenplug adapter is simple, with no electronics needed. The Tesla to CHAdeMO, however, will require a way to decode the PLC from Frankenplug, and encode that into CAN messages for CHAdeMO.

There are currently many 10,000's of Tesla and CHAdeMO cars driving around, so that market is already there. How many Frankenplugs are actually delivered is unknown, but is currently zero.

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Re: Chevrolet to Produce Spark EV All-Electric Vehicle

Sat May 04, 2013 7:11 am

You have to wonder if GM really does have any cohesive strategy. On one hand it looks like all they care about is some meets min compliance play then you have this guy with outstanding credentials leading a team that comes up with this state of the art motor drive thingy. Pretty typical for a large bureaucracy, there are internal factions with different agendas.
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