tbleakne
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:39 pm

TickTock wrote:Not sure about the Nissan pack chemistry, but many batteries are endothermic during discharge (will actually absorb heat) and exothermic during charging. I suspect this is the case for the Leaf pack since you saw a large rise in temperature during charging and a very small rise during driving (which typically pulls more power then charging). This could also explain why they limit the regen to 20kW but will let you have 80kW for accelleration.

I believe it is the charge phase that can be partially endothermic, not discharge, based upon this report I first posted in another thread:
http://www.micro-power.com/userfiles/file/mp_tempcharge-1250026530.pdf

As stated in this report, the endothermic chemistry can be dominated by ohmic losses in the copper conductors, explaining the heating we have seen with QC.

In applying the t^.5 dependence for the time-dependent loss component as mentioned by Stoaty on pg 65 and others, taking Sqrt(years) is not necessarily right. It depends upon where the "knee" in the curve occurs, the point at which "t" is one. I have not seen enough data to conclude that the knee is at 6 months, 9 months, 1 year, or even 1.5 years. The higher this value, the more time it will take before this component slows.

I am willing to agree with the consensus that the time-dependent loss is the largest loss component right now, but I still feel perhaps 30% of more of reported loss might be best-fit correlated with charge cycling, if it turns out that temperature amplifies cycling loss as well as shelf-life loss. If the cycling component is non-negligible now, it will gradually become a bigger fraction of the total loss and our total loss will not "level out" as much as many have hoped.

Those of us with Gid meters in more moderate but still warm climates are showing continued loss. I am hopeful that, by keeping the car out of the sun when parked, and cooling the garage at night, I will not experience a loss of a full capacity bar by October, when the warm weather ends.

Daytime 81-85 F
Night-time 65-65 F
Charge begins 4 am
Now limiting charge to 65-72 % range many nights.
Last charge to 100% June 5: 267 Gids (95%)

80% charges:
5-30: 225 Gids (-2.1 %)
6-9: 223 Gids
6-24: 219 Gids (down 12 Gids from Winter high) -4.3%

I believe it is unrealistic to assume I will lose less than another 12 Gids at 80% by October. The corresponding 100% loss will be proportionately higher, perhaps 12% loss, which will feel quite constraining.
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shrink
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:43 pm

Well, another one bites the dust.

Lost a capacity bar about 20 minutes ago.

2011 LEAF, purchased and delivered on 8/6/2011. Lost the capacity bar on 6/21/2012 (10 months and 15 days) at 10,216 miles.

Typical charging - almost always to 80% (including weekends) with 100% charges approximately once every 3-4 weeks. 4 Quick Charges.

I'm going to take it in to the dealer tomorrow. I know the answer I'm going to receive, but I just want to create the paper trail.

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cwerdna
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:16 pm

1. Azdre - Reported bar lost mid April to early May, 2012. 17K miles/14 months ownership. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7,2012. 10.2K/14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas (Reported on GreenAutoBlog)
16. shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K miles/10.5 months. Phoenix

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix
Last edited by cwerdna on Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Stoaty
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:16 pm

shrink wrote:Well, another one bites the dust.

Lost a capacity bar about 20 minutes ago.

2011 LEAF, purchased and delivered on 8/6/2011. Lost the capacity bar on 6/21/2012 (10 months and 15 days) at 10,216 miles.

Sorry to hear that. Just want to let you know that some of us in the cooler parts of the country fully support those of you in Phoenix and related areas that have been affected by this accelerated battery capacity loss. I don't think the "blame the victim" approach some are taking is going to go over well, and don't want to see this issue split the Leaf community.

It looks like about one per day is being reported on the forum here. I think we are at a total of 20 Leafs now.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
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myleaf
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:42 pm

cwerdna wrote:1. Azdre - Reported bar lost mid April to early May, 2012. 17K miles/14 months ownership. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7,2012. 10.2K/14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas (Reported on GreenAutoBlog)
16. shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K miles/10.5 months. Phoenix

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix



Isn't it interesting how the loss of a bar is clustering around the mid june timeframe ??
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JPWhite
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:36 pm

shrink wrote:2011 LEAF, purchased and delivered on 8/6/2011. Lost the capacity bar on 6/21/2012 (10 months and 15 days) at 10,216 miles.

Typical charging - almost always to 80% (including weekends) with 100% charges approximately once every 3-4 weeks. 4 Quick Charges.


I've had mine one week more and 2,000 miles more, charging pattern almost identical. Still holding good here in TN. It's 90 in the garage this evening. Wonder if Tennessee will start reporting later this year once the heat takes it's toll. The problem does seem to be restricted to the hotter states for now.

I see you have 7 temp bars, I've had 6 or less all year. Only saw 7 temp bars once last year after driving fast in heat and charging soon after.
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http://jpwhitenissanleaf.com
Blue SL-e, Res 4/22/10, Ord 3/29/11, Del 7/30/11
110,000 Miles.
Lost 5 Capacity bars
7/18/13 (29,206), 8/25/14 (51,728), 7/12/15 (71.108), 5/12/16 (88,362), 10/17/16 (96,532)
New Battery 12/3/16 (98,956)

Stoaty
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:21 pm

JPWhite wrote:I see you have 7 temp bars, I've had 6 or less all year. Only saw 7 temp bars once last year after driving fast in heat and charging soon after.

I think that 7 temperature bars (= 98.2 degree F. or above) means that your Leaf has a fever. If the fever persists or goes higher, your Leaf is going to have some degree of brain (battery pack) damage. I have never seen 7 bars on my Leaf, it is usually at 5 bars, but spends significant time at 6 bars in the Valley during the summer; my pack appears to be in good shape (around 95-96% on a full charge by Gid-o-meter last I checked). I propose that time spent at 7 bars or above may be a good indication of who is going to have premature aging of the pack (assuming Leaf is not left at high SOC for significant periods of time). This fits well with the information on the Volt chemistry that 90 degrees is a lot worse for the pack (5 year life expectancy if) than 72 degrees (8 year life expectancy). My guess is that higher spikes are even worse, even if few and short-lived.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
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shrink
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:39 pm

Stoaty wrote:
Sorry to hear that. Just want to let you know that some of us in the cooler parts of the country fully support those of you in Phoenix and related areas that have been affected by this accelerated battery capacity loss. I don't think the "blame the victim" approach some are taking is going to go over well, and don't want to see this issue split the Leaf community.


Thanks, Stoaty. Much appreciated.

JPWhite wrote: Wonder if Tennessee will start reporting later this year once the heat takes it's toll.


Hope not, JP. It'll happen to all of us eventually, but I would hope in TN it will be much farther out than 10 months.

Stoaty wrote:I think that 7 temperature bars (= 98.2 degree F. or above) means that your Leaf has a fever. If the fever persists or goes higher, your Leaf is going to have some degree of brain (battery pack) damage. I have never seen 7 bars on my Leaf, it is usually at 5 bars, but spends significant time at 6 bars in the Valley during the summer; my pack appears to be in good shape (around 95-96% on a full charge by Gid-o-meter last I checked). I propose that time spent at 7 bars or above may be a good indication of who is going to have premature aging of the pack (assuming Leaf is not left at high SOC for significant periods of time). This fits well with the information on the Volt chemistry that 90 degrees is a lot worse for the pack (5 year life expectancy if) than 72 degrees (8 year life expectancy). My guess is that higher spikes are even worse, even if few and short-lived.


Yeah, there's been discussion on the regional Phoenix thread. Most of us are getting 6 temp bars in the AM and 7 in the afternoons/evenings. If I recall correctly, temps started entering the 100's in mid May or so. I do wish there was more guidance on this. If I'm remembering the manual correctly, as long as the temp bars are not too low and in the blue or too high and in the red, that is considered within the "normal" range for the battery.

Well, higher temps are obviously having an effect.
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Herm
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:46 pm

Sorry about that shrink, its becoming clearer that charging to 80% wont save you in Phoenix.

GaslessInSeattle
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:11 pm

Maybe with the higher temperature, the higher voltage reaches a threshold that is equivalent to charging to 100%... really wish we knew if maintaining a lower than 80% SOC was worthwhile... I'm erring in that direction now, since I am enjoying somewhat frequent QC's!

Herm wrote:Sorry about that shrink, its becoming clearer that charging to 80% wont save you in Phoenix.
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