DC Fast Charging $$$$ Fee Poll

First, let me say that this thread is not for technical "solutions" or political discussions. The only thing I'm interested is how much you would pay for a DC charge.

Assume that chargers are as plentiful as gasoline stations for this poll. That means that I don't want to hear about where they should be located.

The assumption is California, since there are references to issues that may not apply in other parts of the world.

Here are the choices:

A. I will not pay anything for DC fast charging, even if I would need a charge.

B1. I won't pay any more than the cost to operate my Prius or other gasoline car. At 50mpg, and $6 gallon gas, that is 12.5 cents per mile. If I only need 10 miles of additional range, I will only pay $1.25. If a DC charge provides about 60 miles in 30 minutes, I'll pay $7.50. A full charge from zero to 100% would take 50 minutes (48kW max a LEAF can accept) and provide 80 miles would be worth $10 to me.

B2. I will only pay the cost of electricity without any consideration for demand charges (or any other costs). A 24kWh "fill-up" would be about $2-$3, just like at my house for slower L1 or L2 charging.

C. I will pay $2-$3 per charge event, but only rarely or in an emergency.

D. I will pay $4-$5 per charge event regularly (several times per week)

E. I will pay $4-$5 per charge event, but only rarely or in an emergency.

F. I will pay 33 cents per minute, so that many of my DC charger needs would be well below the $7 minimum fee now offered by 350green and in the future NRG / eVgo (by California state agreement). So, a ten minute charge would be $3.30 and a twenty minute charge is $6.60. A full charge from zero to 100% would take 50 minutes (48kW max a LEAF can accept) and cost $16.50.

G. I will pay 33 cents per minute. An additional fee of $5 per charge event is added to pay for utility demand charges. Therefore, a ten minute charge would be $8.30 and a twenty minute charge is $11.60. A full charge from zero to 100% would take 50 minutes (48kW max a LEAF can accept) and cost $21.50.

H. I will pay 50 cents per minute so that a ten minute charge is $5 and a twenty minute charge is $10. A full power 50 minute charge is $25. No additional fees.

I. I will pay 25 cents per minute at a reduced charge speed. Since no demand fee is triggered below 20-30kW, my total costs would be a ten minute charge at $2.50 and a twenty minute charge is $5. The proverbial LBW to 80% that Nissan claims will take 25 minutes will probably take 45 minutes and therefore cost $11.25. A full charge from zero to hero (100%) would take 90 minutes (20kW max rate to LEAF) and cost $22.50.

J. I will pay 25 cents per minute at a reduced charge speed. An additional fee of $5 per charge event is added to pay for utility demand charges. My total costs would be a ten minute charge at $7.50 and a twenty minute charge is $10. LBW to 80% is $17.50, and a full charge from zero to 100% would take 90 minutes (20kW max rate to LEAF) and cost $30.00.

K. Unlimited, non-commercial use for one registered car for one location for $150 per month.

L. Unlimited, non-commercial use for one registered car for multiple locations for $200 per month.

M. I will pay the NRG / eVgo minimum $7 charge, and up to $15 maximum during peak time, for 30 minutes. Presumably, a full charge would require two 30 minute fees, for up to $30.

N. Reserved.

O. Similar to "I", except 33 cents per minute at a reduced charge speed. Since no demand fee is triggered below 20-30kW, my total costs would be a ten minute charge at $3.30 and a twenty minute charge is $6.60. The proverbial LBW to 80% that Nissan claims will take 25 minutes will probably take 45 minutes and therefore cost $14.85. A full charge from zero to hero (100%) would take 90 minutes (20kW max rate to LEAF) and cost $29.70.

Here's a simple spreadsheet of some of the pricing models:

Although I am not in california, I would expect to pay B or F

In all honesty, its a super convience to charge at DC charger, and they do cost alot. $10-$15 is what I would expect to pay, although more like $10-$12 to be honest. To me its worth the cost if you need the charge.

Pipcecil said:

Although I am not in california, I would expect to pay B or F

In all honesty, its a super convience to charge at DC charger, and they do cost alot. $10-$15 is what I would expect to pay, although more like $10-$12 to be honest. To me its worth the cost if you need the charge.

Click to expand...

Where are you?

33 cents per minute with a 10 minute minimum at 20kW or above seems fair.

However, for the convenience of saving time or not renting an ICE, I would be willing to pay much more!

Behaviorly I would likely be an E, but would prefer something between F/I (i.e. the charge was 25 cents per minute at full speed).

To be honest, a charge per kwh used (plus slight surcharge, less than $5, would be slightly better in my mind set). IMO, CA needs to rework their demand fee structure if they really want DC chargers to take off.

1st choice: F
2nd choice: B
3rd Choice: I

The main reason for choosing the per minute choices is because I almost feel "taken" if I chose a flat rate fee and I'm not at or below 25% (random figure I chose)... It almost discourages me to want to QC when I have to pay a flat rate and I'm only consuming a small amount of the possible QC kW.

I'd rather drive somewhere and pay for a 15 min QC and be on my way vs free L2 (which will take much longer). However, if that 15-minute QC session costs me an arm and a leg, I'll probably just take my ICE.

EricBayArea said:

if that 15-minute QC session costs me an arm and a leg, I'll probably just take my ICE.

Click to expand...

How would anybody know what an "arm and a leg" is worth to you? Could you please quantify your answers.

waitingforaleaf said:

To be honest, a charge per kwh used (plus slight surcharge, less than $5, would be slightly better in my mind set). IMO, CA needs to rework their demand fee structure if they really want DC chargers to take off.

Click to expand...

Cost per kilowatt doesn't exist because the only people offering that are public utilities. Obviously, there are no California certified end user "per kilowatt" dispensers. The same is true of hydrogen, by the way.

Weights and measures will no doubt address both some day. Demand fee falls into the political arena. It exists, and therefore our choices are limited to reality today.

BTW, the calculation for B looks off. Prius at 50 mpg and $4 gas is $0.08 per mile, not $0.125. So 10 miles would be $0.80; 60 miles would be $4.80; 80 miles would be $6.40.

waitingforaleaf said:

BTW, the calculation for B looks off. Prius at 50 mpg and $4 gas is $0.08 per mile, not $0.125. So 10 miles would be $0.80; 60 miles would be $4.80; 80 miles would be $6.40.

Click to expand...

Ok, I just changed it to $6 gallon. But the premise remains; if any segment of any trip is more than the cost of a gas burner, then "I'll-Just-Drive-My-Prius(TM)"

E. I will pay $4-$5 per charge event, but only rarely or in an emergency.

in Seattle.

FYI - You have two "B" choices in the list.

My choice would be "B. I won't pay any more than the cost to operate my Prius or other gasoline car..."
I would be willing to pay a small surcharge <= $5.00.

Leaf
Central Alabama

Honestly, E-J would work for me, although I consider "F" unrealistic for obvious (demand charge) reasons. My need for DC usage is so sporadic, I am willing to 'pay up', so to speak for the occasional convenience.

Real-life example: I have to pick my daughter up at LAX tonight at 10pm and drop her at home in HB, then return to my home - Google says this is a 95-mile trip (nearly all freeways), so I have no hope of completing it on a single charge. My choices today are:

1) Pray that I find empty L2 at LAX and arrive early to 'top off', and/or stop at Mitsubishi Cypress QC on the way home to top off (after 60 freeway miles plus 16+ street miles, meaning I have to drive cautiously on the freeways) - if Mitsubishi is unavailabe for any reason, I'm toast ;
2) Drive the Murano (ICE - 20 mpg).

The problem is I need to work in the morning, so any L2 charging after picking her up will get me home well past midnight. I'd also have to drive below 65 on all freeway miles, lengthening the trip, to make it home. Almost any of Tony's scenarios below (QCs with gas-station ubiquitousness) would solve my problem nicely:

1) Murano gas for trip (97miles/20mpg*$4.20/gal) is $20.37, plus LAX parking; vs.
2) Leaf fuel for trip is a full off-peak charge ~$3.50, plus Tony's hypothetical fill-up, which would be cost-effective even at $17 (or more, if we include the avoided LAX parking tab for the Murano, and a potential free L2 top-off there).

Every scenario Tony outlined (except for the "full" charges under G-H-I, which would not apply to this trip) would make the Leaf more cost-effective for the overall trip.

Not to mention more fun

The beauty of a QC on every corner is competition will limit pricing.
In the mean time I would pay in the $5 to $15 zone and not worry too much. I would appreciate a time based charge rather than flat fee. For a daily commute I would expect a discount.

Truth is I have no QC port so good luck. The key will be getting on the Leaf navigation or otherwise making sure everyone knows the place exists. QC is so rare now we hardly expect to even see one. I would price it a little high until there was some competition.

If you include in the "cost to operate my Prius or other gasoline car" The annual depreciation, prop tax, insurance, maint. + gas etc.

That divided by roughly the number of QC's I'd want in a year

That might be more like $10-15.

I'd pay that amount per QC. and have 1 car the Leaf.

TonyWilliams said:

EricBayArea said:

if that 15-minute QC session costs me an arm and a leg, I'll probably just take my ICE.

Click to expand...

How would anybody know what an "arm and a leg" is worth to you? Could you please quantify your answers.

Click to expand...

Sorry Tony, point taken... I really do hate it when I use an idioms haphazardly :lol:

If a QC session costs 60% or more than the cost of gas in my 25mpg, only takes premium, ICE - then I'm probably going to drive my ICE and pay for gas because I can get there and back quicker (both driving time and QC'ing time) with less concentration on power bubbles and DTE.

Example: I want to drive from my house in Walnut Creek to Palo Alto to visit a friend, go to lunch, and drive home. Trip will be approximately 125 miles, 95% freeway speeds with some elevation changes. Assuming 25mpg and $4.50/gal (premium), this would cost me (without bridge tolls - no carpool benefits on the weekend) $22.50 in gas. Assuming I charge my LEAF at home to 100% overnight from dead @ about $2.00, drive down to Palo Alto and go out to lunch, I'm now at about 15 miles remaining. A 30-min QC to bring me back up 80-90% to get me home should cost me less than $12 ($0.40/min). Otherwise I'll probably take the ICE.

Barbouri said:

FYI - You have two "B" choices in the list.

My choice would be "B. I won't pay any more than the cost to operate my Prius or other gasoline car..."
I would be willing to pay a small surcharge <= $5.00.

Leaf
Central Alabama

Click to expand...

Ok, thanks. I changed them to B1 and B2. I don't understand how you won't pay more the the Prius, but will pay $5 extra? That's more than the Prius.

harryjpowell said:

If you include in the "cost to operate my Prius or other gasoline car" The annual depreciation, prop tax, insurance, maint. + gas etc.

Click to expand...

I get the sense that few consider these costs. The Prius quip is a frequent answer to why folks won't pay for DC charging, but I have yet to hear a single Prius person even mention all those other costs you rightly bring up. I sold my 2003 mini-van because I didn't want to keep paying insurance, plates, oil changes and maintenance, and further depreciation. It makes a $50 infrequent DC charge a bargain to me so that I wouldn't have to keep a standby car.

EricBayArea said:

If a QC session costs 60% or more than the cost of gas in my 25mpg, only takes premium, ICE - then I'm probably going to drive my ICE and pay for gas....

Click to expand...

Interesting. You're the first that I've heard that it had to be cheaper than "the Prius".

smkettner said:

The beauty of a QC on every corner is competition will limit pricing.

Click to expand...

No, the completion will be the Prius for a LONG, LONG time. As you can already see from responses, if the Prius cost $5, and DC charger A cost $6, and across the street, DC charger B cost $5.99, they are not going to use either DC charger. Read up a few posts, and one suggests it has to cost $3 (60% of gas) to be considered.

DC to DC competition ain't it.