DC Fast Charging $$$$ Fee Poll

[waitingforaleaf]

If a QC session costs 60% or more than the cost of gas in my 25mpg, only takes premium, ICE - then I'm probably going to drive my ICE and pay for gas....

Interesting. You're the first that I've heard that it had to be cheaper than "the Prius".

Don't think you read that response correctly. I believe he says that he's willing to pay for a QC session that is up to 59% more than the cost of driving the Prius."

edit: Nevermind, I read the details further down and it looks like you're right. $12 bucks DC charge instead of the $22.50 to run "the Prius."

 

[EricBayArea]

If a QC session costs 60% or more than the cost of gas in my 25mpg, only takes premium, ICE - then I'm probably going to drive my ICE and pay for gas....

Interesting. You're the first that I've heard that it had to be cheaper than "the Prius".

I obviously don't have a Prius. I have never owned a hybrid. I think assuming a 50mpg Prius is everyone else's "other" car may be a bit misguided.

For me it's not only the cost of fuel. If I need to spend an extra 20-30 minutes (assuming there's no one else there before me) on a trip to QC and an additional 15-30 minutes in transit time because I'm going slower, it should carry some cost benefits - and no, I don't take into account cost benefits of wear and tear on my other car for the one-off trips where I might be able to make it in the LEAF. Don't get me wrong, I love that my LEAF is smooth and quiet, but I also love my turbocharged AWD Subaru too because it's fun, fast and and has a sunroof. Granted we hardly use the Subaru on a regular basis, but I don't hesitate to take it if I would otherwise need to charge to get home (or the trip borders is 80+ highway miles)... unless there's an obvious savings plus I trust the L2/L3 infrastructure to be working and enough choices where I can find an open EVSE without having to wait 30-60 minutes for one to open up. But again, that's just me.

 

[DougMarker]

B or F $10 to $15 or so

 

[DANandNAN]

I'm not a Leaf owner yet, but plan to trade our SUV when/if the 2013 has the 6.6. I'm a Volt owner though so I've experienced range anxiety (though Volt owners call it gas anxiety since we hate to burn gas).

For us the DC Fast Charge pricing depends on gasoline's cost. We get about 40mpg in the Volt using CS mode. Gas is about $4/gallon so going 80 miles using the on-board generator for 40 miles would be $5 (including the original charge) or 16 miles/dollar (.06/mi). To avoid burning gas I'd be willing to pay more than that, but how much more is the problem. If I was cruising in the Leaf and something came up and I needed to go further I'd pay "F"

(F. I will pay 33 cents per minute, so that many of my DC charger needs would be well below the $7 minimum fee now offered by 350green and in the future NRG / eVgo (by California state agreement). So, a ten minute charge would be $3.30 and a twenty minute charge is $6.60. A full charge from zero to 100% would take 50 minutes (48kW max a LEAF can accept) and cost $16.50. )

But I'd only buy what was necessary to get home. If I really needed the charge for an emergency I'd be forced to pay more. To make it something I'd use every weekend (instead of the Leaf's 6.6) it would need to be per minute based and level F or less.

20MPHC with the 6.6 is nice, but 65-70MPHC with the DC Fast Charge would be great if the price was right. I hate the demand charge but someone has to pay it which is why I'd prefer L2 and doing something "constructive" or else I'd just take the Volt.

 

[KeiJidosha]

Whatever the cost is at the charger where I am when I need it, if less than a flat tow.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I hate the demand charge but someone has to pay it which is why I'd prefer L2 and doing something "constructive" or else I'd just take the Volt.

Hey, the Prius has some competition!!!

 

[UkrainianKozak]

I think the answer choices are kind of wondering into multiple questions... Some tie the cost to gasoline, some speak about emergency use and some about fixed fees while others don't...
I think it really should be 3-4 separate questions

To me B1 sounds as the most fair and reasonable for longer trips, and I would use it occasionally.
For emergencies, I would pay an arm and a leg, up to lets say $50, but I haven't had a charge emergency yet, after 1 year of leafing, so that would be a rare event.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Whatever the cost is at the charger where I am when I need it, if less than a flat tow.

The tow is free from Nissan. So, you'd pay nothing? (Choice A)

 

[Nubo]

H.

The vast majority of my charging will be done at home. I would be willing to pay 50 cents per minute for those rare occasions where I needed a QC to facilitate a longer trip. The cost on a yearly basis would be fairly small.

However I do think that any proprietor is going to have to take into account the cost of electricity and the fact that different cars and different charge lengths will take varying amounts of power. Thus, I'd expect a per-minute fee along with a total kWH fee. You want to discourage "camping" and fairly bill for power.

Personally I don't want to know or care about the demand charge. Let the proprietor recover that cost from the base per-minute rate. I don't want to know about their property taxes, rent, or advertising costs either.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I think the answer choices are kind of wondering into multiple questions... Some tie the cost to gasoline, some speak about emergency use and some about fixed fees while others don't...

Which is the point exactly. Which thing is important to you. I didn't put what's important to me, which would be paying a price that would ensure that there would be a viable DC charger infrastructure. Obviously, that is not linked in any way to the price of gasoline, but instead to electricity costs.

To me B1 sounds as the most fair and reasonable for longer trips

The Prius is out in front !!! :ugeek:

 

[TonyWilliams]

However I do think that any proprietor is going to have to take into account the cost of electricity and the fact that different cars and different charge lengths will take varying amounts of power. Thus, I'd expect a per-minute fee along with a total kWH fee. You want to discourage "camping" and fairly bill for power.

Interesting, per minute and kWh. Like I said above, most states do not even allow a non-electric utility from selling electricity at all. California does, specifically for vehicle use, but there is no standard on how that would be administered. You don't buy gasoline or apples without a scale that is approved by the state.

Personally I don't want to know or care about the demand charge. Let the proprietor recover that cost from the base per-minute rate. I don't want to know about their property taxes, rent, or advertising costs either.

Ok. However, even airlines throw out a fuel surcharge, and I don't care much about the price of jet fuel.

 

[smkettner]

The beauty of a QC on every corner is competition will limit pricing.

No, the completion will be the Prius for a LONG, LONG time. As you can already see from responses, if the Prius cost $5, and DC charger A cost $6, and across the street, DC charger B cost $5.99, they are not going to use either DC charger. Read up a few posts, and one suggests it has to cost $3 (60% of gas) to be considered.

DC to DC competition ain't it.

I think most prefer driving Leaf than the Prius... they will pay.
Your biggest competition is overnight electric costs. The premium is for longer than usual travel days and tourism.
I can't see a commuter QC to get to work then again to get home. If this is required they don't own the Leaf.
Just my random thoughts.

 

[DANandNAN]

Tony,
I just saw your post that you're getting the $20K Andromeda Power portable DC fast charger. Did I just discover why you've started this thread on what to fees to charge? :lol:
:?

 

[gbshaun]

F
B1
I


The vast majority of my charging is going to be at home, at night.
Being able to quick-charge will extend the range of places I could visit, eg SNA is 61 miles from here.
Half of that journey would still be at 6c/kWh, so the entire journey is still a lot cheaper than with my ICE option.

The reason i prefer a per-minute option, rather than per-charge, is that the L3 station may not be at my destination and I'd have to hit it for a short time on the way up, and on the way back.
If it was at Dana Pt. I'd have to charge for 15 minutes in both directions.

Shaun

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony,
I just saw your post that you're getting the $20K Andromeda Power portable DC fast charger. Did I just discover why you've started this thread on what to fees to charge? :lol:
:?

Yes, I've been working on developing a DC infrastructure since last October. I will operate "several". Andromeda is my contracted partner, and will provide chargers to my specifications. I think the list price is $25k, though.

But, I've spent a great deal of effort on the technical hurdles, and little effort on customer preferences. None of the price structures that I've presented are guaranteed to be viable to the DC charging provider, which is the whole point. I've considered that it won't make money, but only because we're waiting for more LEAFs to hit the road.

The more recent realization is that LEAF drivers really aren't that interested in paying to use a viable, sustainable model, but instead it gets down to what is cheapest or most convenient to them. That, of course, will result in a what we currently have... almost no DC chargers.

So, now I have to consider if anything related to ChadeMo cars is worthwhile, and if it's more logical to service only Tesla and SAE BMW cars with DC charging. I suspect that, unlike LEAF drivers, they aren't likely to leave the $100,000 Tesla at home because it's cheaper to drive the Prius/Volt.

 

[KJD]

I. I will pay 25 cents per minute at a reduced charge speed. Since no demand fee is triggered below 20-30kW, my total costs would be a ten minute charge at $2.50 and a twenty minute charge is $5. A full charge from zero to 100% would take 90 minutes (20kW max rate to LEAF) and cost $22.50.

This option seems the most desirable to me. IMHO demand charges are price gouging by the local utilities and should be avoided no mater what. This option would send more of my money to the station owner instead of the utility company and that is a good thing. It would be a bit slower than full throttle, but so be it.

If there was a large solar canopy over the quick charge station, then I would be willing to pay 50 cents per minute.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I think most prefer driving Leaf than the Prius... they will pay.
Your biggest competition is overnight electric costs. The premium is for longer than usual travel days and tourism.

So far, I don't see the Prius folks paying one penny more. DC chargers at your enroute or destination stop will NEVER cost the same as charging at home at 1/10 the speed.

Tourism is WAY off in EVs, both for expense and impracticality.

I can't see a commuter QC to get to work then again to get home. If this is required they don't own the Leaf.

How about:

K. Unlimited, non-commercial use for one registered car for one location for $150 per month.

L. Unlimited, non-commercial use for one registered car for multiple locations for $200 per month.

 

[DANandNAN]

Tony,
I just saw your post that you're getting the $20K Andromeda Power portable DC fast charger. Did I just discover why you've started this thread on what to fees to charge? :lol:
:?

Yes, I've been working on developing a DC infrastructure since last October. I will operate "several". Andromeda is my contracted partner, and will provide chargers to my specifications. I think the list price is $25k, though.

But, I've spent a great deal of effort on the technical hurdles, and little effort on customer preferences. None of the price structures that I've presented are guaranteed to be viable to the DC charging provider, which is the whole point. I've considered that it won't make money, but only because we're waiting for more LEAFs to hit the road.

The more recent realization is that LEAF drivers really aren't that interested in paying to use a viable, sustainable model, but instead it gets down to what is cheapest or most convenient to them. That, of course, will result in a what we currently have... almost no DC chargers.

So, now I have to consider if anything related to ChadeMo cars is worthwhile, and if it's more logical to service only Tesla and SAE BMW cars with DC charging. I suspect that, unlike LEAF drivers, they aren't likely to leave the $100,000 Tesla at home because it's cheaper to drive the Prius/Volt.

That's kind of what I figured. I wish you luck with your DC stations.

The more users is better is a realization that some folks can't make on the L2 stations.

I think the start-up costs of DC are the biggest hurdle right now. Hopefully they drop substantially.

Good luck

 

[GRA]

B1, F or I, depending on the circumstances. For example, 'I' would be fine at sit down restaurants or similar. I want to pay for what I've used, not be locked in to paying a flat fee, and it's got to be less than I can buy gas for or I will 'take the Forester'.

 

[smkettner]

How about:

K. Unlimited, non-commercial use for one registered car for one location for $150 per month.

L. Unlimited, non-commercial use for one registered car for multiple locations for $200 per month.

It is both time and money. At home it is just $50 per month and zero time waiting. Compare to 22 days, twice a day $10 is only $220... I would think only 50% to 75% or $100-$150 max. First couple months half that again to get the person in a routine.

On tourism I am talking about LA/OC people that visit SD. I would go if I had L2 at my destination such as Zoo, Sea World, Soak City, beach etc. Or if I knew I could hit a QC at one or two points along the journey.

Have you seen the mass of traffic going down Sat morning and returning Sun night. It is a big market although currently difficult for Leaf due to range.