Six miles, Low Battery Warning to Turtle (Sans Effect)

LTLFTcomposite said:

The other thing I am wondering is "they" say the battery is most stable at 50% charge, and it's the extremes that shorten its life. Is hanging with the turtles just as bad as 100%?

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I don't have much scientific basis for my opinion, but based on the battery curves I have seen I would say that any driving you do after getting "Very Low Battery" (VLBW) is worse than charging to 100%. I've been to turtle once, and don't expect to go there again.

I'm with abasile. If you charge at LBW, and only to 80%, you are using two thirds of the 24 kWh nominal capacity, and babying the battery just like the Volt does. Going up to 100% is not too bad when you need it, and neither is going down just to VLBW, but stay away from turtle.

Incidentally, for folks like Tony who do often go below VLBW, have you watched the power bubbles? I'm beginning to suspect that the double circles may disappear one by one as you approach turtle.

Ray

TonyWilliams said:

I'm hoping I got some balancing last night, with a stop charging text message at 4:32am, and another at 7:39am.

For guys charging to 100% regularly with the timer set to just before they leave, I think you're missing out on this valuable 3 hours of balancing.

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When I see 'Charging Stopped' that means the charging stopped at 10 bars (80%) and I've not seen any hint of leveling in 6500 miles of charging to 10 bars. About every 2 weeks I will charge to 100% and see a variable rate of charging and finally a message saying 'Charging Completed' but that usually takes about 90 minutes from the 10 bar point.

So did the 3 hours of leveling charge start at 10 bars or 12 bars? Any chance you have a charge log (eg TED data) during this extended post charging time?

Nekota said:

So did the 3 hours of leveling charge start at 10 bars or 12 bars? Any chance you have a charge log (eg TED data) during this extended post charging time?

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I don't think any of us believe that any cell balancing takes places at "10 bars" (80%). I charged to 100%, and that charge ended at 4am-ish. Then, the pack apparently went through about 3 hours of balancing (discharging the highest cells) and recharging to once again to arrive at 100% at 7am-ish.

I have a Blink charger, so naturally it doesn't work al the time. Right now, mine doesn't even show up when I sign in on the Blink Network website. Plus, it has other issues anyway (note; today at Balboa park, 3 out of 10 Blink chargers didn't work.... again). So, I have no data to offer.

Bob Hoover - I've met Bob, and while his aerobatic stuff is nothing compared to Sean Tucker, et al, he did a show that has not been equalled today.

New data today. I received a yellow "master caution", and after consulting the QRH (Quick Reference Handbook), I learned that I got a:

ELECTRIC VEHICLE (EV) SYSTEM WARNING LIGHT
The warning light will illuminate if there is a malfunction in the following systems:
• Traction motor and inverter system
• Charge port or on-board charger
• Li-ion battery system
• Cooling system
• Shift control system
• Emergency shut off system is activated.

If the warning light illuminates, contact a NISSAN certified LEAF dealer.

planet4ever said:

Incidentally, for folks like Tony who do often go below VLBW, have you watched the power bubbles? I'm beginning to suspect that the double circles may disappear one by one as you approach turtle.

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Yes, the power bubbles start contracting as you approach turtle. Note in the next two pictures as the bubbles go from 4 to 2 "power" bubbles in about 100 yards in Turtle.

LTLFTcomposite said:

Is hanging with the turtles just as bad as 100%?

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We just don't know. Nissan isn't telling, if they even know. Lot's of speculation, but the obvious information is that "long life" of the batteries is 80% charge, but no mention of a lower limit to discharge.

In general though, I do think that the longest life will be the folks who keep the range of charging and discharging as close to 50% as is possible. And never let the batteries be exposed to high heat. Or high loads.

TonyWilliams said:

New data today. I received a yellow "master caution"

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More details please, when did this happen?

drees said:

TonyWilliams said:

I'm hoping I got some balancing last night, with a stop charging text message at 4:32am, and another at 7:39am.

For guys charging to 100% regularly with the timer set to just before they leave, I think you're missing out on this valuable 3 hours of balancing.

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Was that charging without a timer?

Going back to a thread from last year it appears that only setting an stop time will also induce a top-off charge when charging to 100%.

Look here: Charging timer: start time based on END time?

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My charge timer is set for:

Start - 12:10am
Stop - 11:50am
100%
Charger has priority over climate control

Herm said:

TonyWilliams said:

New data today. I received a yellow "master caution"

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More details please, when did this happen?

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Today, around noon. I drove to downtown, and was looking for a Car2go to grab (of the two blocking Blink chargers in Balboa Park, neither car would work, and 3 chargers didn't work).

I'll schedule a visit at the dealer.

TonyWilliams said:

Nekota said:

So did the 3 hours of leveling charge start at 10 bars or 12 bars? Any chance you have a charge log (eg TED data) during this extended post charging time?

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I don't think any of us believe that any cell balancing takes places at "10 bars" (80%). I charged to 100%, and that charge ended at 4am-ish. Then, the pack apparently went through about 3 hours of balancing (discharging the highest cells) and recharging to once again to arrive at 100% at 7am-ish.

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Was that using any timer, timer override, or? Did you check your Blink to see if it happened to reboot itself 7am-ish (Check the uptime on the device info page) as that will trigger a top-off as well.

TonyWilliams said:

planet4ever said:

Incidentally, for folks like Tony who do often go below VLBW, have you watched the power bubbles? I'm beginning to suspect that the double circles may disappear one by one as you approach turtle.

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Yes, the power bubbles start contracting as you approach turtle. Note in the next two pictures as the bubbles go from 4 to 2 "power" bubbles in about 100 yards in Turtle.

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I thought it was obvious that you would have very few power bubbles once you were in turtle. My question was whether they started disappearing before you got to turtle, and if so, how much before. I'm looking for a non-binary warning of impending doom. If the answer is that you lose one every ten feet, that would not be useful. If you start losing them halfway through the period from VLBW to Turtle, and each one you lose ticks off another 10% of your time between VLBW and Turtle, that would be quite useful. I expect the answer will be less deterministic than that, assuming it happens at all.

It is interesting, though, to see that bubbles can keep disappearing while you are in turtle.

Ray

TonyWilliams said:

...Or high loads.

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Does that mean ix-na on flooring it for the benefit of friends on test drives/rides? Or were you thinking more like long climbs?

LTLFTcomposite said:

TonyWilliams said:

...Or high loads.

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Does that mean ix-na on flooring it for the benefit of friends on test drives/rides? Or were you thinking more like long climbs?

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Floored going up a long hill with heater blaring and high beams on...

planet4ever said:

My question was whether they started disappearing before you got to turtle, and if so, how much before........

It is interesting, though, to see that bubbles can keep disappearing while you are in turtle.

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I believe they do, but don't have concrete evidence to prove that.

TonyWilliams said:

I believe they do, but don't have concrete evidence to prove that.

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I paid close attention to it last time, and I did not see this effect. That's sample size of one, and hardly representative, but I believe that you can't use disappearing power bubbles to predict the onset of turtle mode.

A headwind might account for the decreased range that night. Three days ago I got low m/kwh numbers on my way home and the ambient temp was normal but there was about a 15 mph headwind.

Navin said:

A headwind might account for the decreased range that night. Three days ago I got low m/kwh numbers on my way home and the ambient temp was normal but there was about a 15 mph headwind.

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No headwind (by the way, headwind is accounted for in the range chart), no significant temperature issues (in the 60F's). Remember, it did the same thing on Friday and on Sunday over a known "course" that I've done 22 miles, LBW to Turtle. I got the same 6-ish miles. The car did not have enough time to balance the cells throughout the whole 323 mile weekend.

After the 3 hour balancing on Monday, it appears my car is back to normal. Yesterday, I drove 9 miles into LBW before getting VLB, and then drove 2 additional miles home (all at about 4 m/kWh). No Turtle and very much in harmony with the range chart.

It appears it went through another round of balancing last night, with a 4:34am stop charging, and another at 6:18am. I don't know if that's an improvement, that it took less than 2 hours (as opposed to three earlier), but it seems that at least one of the 96 measured cell-pair voltages is causing a bit of a problem.

Fortunately, it looks like the automation is fixing it, but the fundamental issue remains. My simple advice. before pushing the limits of range, first charge to 100%, and leave at least 3 hours after the charge to have the highest likelihood that *if* the cells need balancing, it has an opportunity to do so.

Then, you should have a highest chance of meeting your range predictions.

TonyWilliams said:

It appears it went through another round of balancing last night, with a 4:34am stop charging, and another at 6:18am. I don't know if that's an improvement, that it took less than 2 hours (as opposed to three earlier), but it seems that at least one of the 96 measured cell-pair voltages is causing a bit of a problem.

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Did you have any timers set for your charge last night when you got your 2nd end-of-charge message?

TonyWilliams said:

My simple advice. before pushing the limits of range, first charge to 100%, and leave at least 3 hours after the charge to have the highest likelihood that *if* the cells need balancing, it has an opportunity to do so.

Then, you should have a highest chance of meeting your range predictions.

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Right - but not only should you wait 3 hours, but it has to be plugged in and ready to charge. And you should receive a 2nd "charging stopped" message through carwings. I'd bet that if you can't wait for the car to automatically top off on it's own, you can at least manually start charging again and squeeze a bit more into the pack before it's fully equalized all the cells to squeeze a few more miles into the pack.

drees said:

TonyWilliams said:

Nekota said:

So did the 3 hours of leveling charge start at 10 bars or 12 bars? Any chance you have a charge log (eg TED data) during this extended post charging time?

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\

what does leveling the battery do and accomplish?

Think of 96 pairs of water glasses (192 water glasses total), and lay them out in a pattern roughly the size of the battery, approximately 3 feet by 6 feet square.

Now, take a garden hose and fill them to the top, where each glass holds 4.1 units of water each. That's probably going to be hard to get every single one exactly full from that big hose. When you're done with the hose, now take some water out of the full glasses so that they all equal the lowest filled glass. Two or three hours later (because it took you that long to carefully lower the other glasses), fill all the glasses carefully back up to top of the 4.1 units of water.

Now, hopefully all the glasses are full, and you have the most water the glasses in total can hold.

drees said:

Did you have any timers set for your charge last night ....

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Same timer: 12:10am-11:50am, 100%, charger has priority.

Right - but not only should you wait 3 hours, but it has to be plugged in and ready to charge. And you should receive a 2nd "charging stopped" message through carwings. I'd bet that if you can't wait for the car to automatically top off on it's own, you can at least manually start charging again and squeeze a bit more into the pack before it's fully equalized all the cells to squeeze a few more miles into the pack.

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Yes, of course, good points.