LEAF Charging Costs

Here is an interesting article from plugincars called "Plug-in Car Economics".

http://www.plugincars.com/plug-economics.html

It sites the U.S. average rate of residential electricity as 11.7 cents per kWh. There is a chart showing the differences in prices of fully charging a Volt and a LEAF every day for a month. Washington LEAF owners, you have the distinction of having the cheapest power in the U.S.

There is also information about utilities charging different rates at different times of day, "time of use" pricing. My cost in Tucson now is 11.3 cents per kWh, but if I go to time of use pricing and charge during off-peak times, that drops to 5.8 cents a kWh. So a full charge would only cost $1.40. I imagine I won't be doing full charges very often so a daily charge would be less than that. I'm switching to this plan now as it takes about 4 to 6 weeks for our electric company to come out to change the meter for time of use.

Some surprising info about charging at charging stations:

Employers, government buildings, and some retailers such as movie theaters will allow vehicles to plug-in for free. Parking garages and charging stations along highways are expected to charge either flat fees per charge, or for the time parked. Some utilities are expected to set up "roaming" plans that will enable you to pay the same rate you pay at home at charging stations around town and have it show up on your home utility bill. A few "rapid charging" stations will charge vehicles in under an hour for a premium that is likely to be in the 10s of dollars.

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I don't like the idea of "rapid charging" costing "10s of dollars". I'm not sure where they got that info though.

I went to a Solar 101 seminar on Tuesday night and the rep from ECOtality in Arizona said they are in discussions with Walmart to put in chargers that would be free. He did not say if these would be Level 1 or 2, I imagine Level 1. He also said that all sites with chargers for the EV Project would have at least a pair of chargers. His company will be releasing info and photos of the EV Project chargers on July 26. They are being built now and will be installed in September and October.

Azrich said:

... ECOtality in Arizona said they are in discussions with Walmart to put in chargers that would be free. He did not say if these would be Level 1 or 2, I imagine Level 1.

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Level 1 (120V) would make no sense. 240V is easily available, and yes the total energy (& cost) consumed by the customer will be double during their shopping stay, but it's still negligible when viewed in terms of the competitive advantage. The cost savings (if any) of providing Level 1 versus 2 should also be relatively small -- UNLESS Walmart is planning only on providing 120V/12A outlets where you bring your own portable EVSE (cable). But if that is the case, the benefit provided is far outweiged by the inconvenience of BYOC ... imagine loading up the cargo space with all your shopping bags and having to stuff the cable in there too; or having to dig the cable out from under other shopping bags before stopping at Walmart! (Now imagine inclement weather conditions ...)

They might be using the Coulomb units, they are commercial and they have both a Level 1 only, a Level 2 only, and a combined unit with both. FYI, the cheapest one (L1) is $7,000

Interesting concept about how some pay-chargers may be put out there. I've read some of their pricing models, and most of them turn me off. I'm not interested in paying $20-30 for a quick charge, and I'm not interested in paying a monthly access fee whether I use the chargers or not and then more fees on top of that for what I use.

I'm hoping that there will be plenty of free charging spots available once things roll out, but even if that doesn't happen, home is where the juice will be for me...I'm not expecting to take many longer-distance trips...

mitch672 said:

They might be using the Coulomb units, they are commercial and they have both a Level 1 only, a Level 2 only, and a combined unit with both. FYI, the cheapest one (L1) is $7,000

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Ok ... thanks for that. Not sure where you get the pricing. Let's assume you're talking CT1000 = $7k (level 1, BYOC). Then how much would the CT2000 be ? But would it not make more sense for them to use CT2100 (Commerical with DUAL outlet) ? I will assume there'd be some economies of scale there, being DUAL. How much for that unit ? (Let's keep it apples-2apples, i.e. Wall/Pole/Bollard style.)

LEAFer said:

Azrich said:

... ECOtality in Arizona said they are in discussions with Walmart to put in chargers that would be free. He did not say if these would be Level 1 or 2, I imagine Level 1.

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Level 1 (120V) would make no sense. 240V is easily available, and yes the total energy (& cost) consumed by the customer will be double during their shopping stay, but it's still negligible when viewed in terms of the competitive advantage. The cost savings (if any) of providing Level 1 versus 2 should also be relatively small -- UNLESS Walmart is planning only on providing 120V/12A outlets where you bring your own portable EVSE (cable). But if that is the case, the benefit provided is far outweiged by the inconvenience of BYOC ... imagine loading up the cargo space with all your shopping bags and having to stuff the cable in there too; or having to dig the cable out from under other shopping bags before stopping at Walmart! (Now imagine inclement weather conditions ...)

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Opportunity charging on 120V while shopping is pointless unless you shop for 8 hours, I'm sure some do but they are most likely driving Range Rovers.. To really take advantage of opportunity charging you need the full level II at 6.6kw.

Azrich said:

There is also information about utilities charging different rates at different times of day, "time of use" pricing. My cost in Tucson now is 11.3 cents per kWh, but if I go to time of use pricing and charge during off-peak times, that drops to 5.8 cents a kWh. So a full charge would only cost $1.40.

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Wow - I just checked what would happen if I went to a time of use pricing plan.

My current rate is about 11.5 cents per kWh. If I go to time of use at night that rate drops to 8 cents to KWh, but from 1pm to 6pm during the summer (peak demand time) the price increases to 46 cents per kWh! I'd never be able to surf the forums in the afternoon.

Wonder if they would run two meters to my house so that I'd have a dedicated meter for the Leaf - about the only way time of use would make sense for me.

You'd need to contact your local utility, their clean-air helpline if they have one. My utility wants me to pay for the second meter, which is too expensive to be practical in my situation, but it sounds like at least one other's utility will do the work for free.

I wonder, if I use my Level 1 charge interface in public ...
would it still be there when I got back?

How much would it cost me to replace it?

Azrich said:

My cost in Tucson now is 11.3 cents per kWh, but if I go to time of use pricing and charge during off-peak times, that drops to 5.8 cents a kWh. So a full charge would only cost $1.40.

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Watch out if your house is on the same meter as your EV charging, and you switch to a time-of-use rate. Your household air conditioner will be running at peak time during the summer and could be very expensive. It would add about $500 to my yearly bill, for example.

garygid said:

I wonder, if I use my Level 1 charge interface in public ...
would it still be there when I got back?

How much would it cost me to replace it?

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I worry about that too. I suspect that the wand will be quite expensive to replace until we get some third party availability of them.

For the Level 1 wand - it sure would be nice if there was a little locking mechanism that would secure the thing to the car to help discourage it from being "borrowed"

I guess a long-U bicycle-type padlock (and possibly a short cable through the frame) might work.

Define "in public". If you mean a public charging station with level 1 access, you won''t be using your own cord; you'll be using one permanently attached to the charging station. If you mean stealing electricity that someone else is paying for (like we all do with our laptops at airports), well, yes, you're on your own.

Charging at work with your manager's approval is a bit different. There you are presumably going to be in a private parking lot, so it's not really "in public", but it might not be all that well patrolled, so there could be a problem.

Actually, LakeLeaf has a good point. The J1772 connectors all seem to have a trigger mechanism that latches them to the car. It should be trivial to provide a padlock hole in the trigger so that they can't be unlatched without removing the padlock first.

The level 1 ChargePoint chargers that are already installed at stores near me have a little door that opens with the swipe of the ChargePoint card (costs $9.95). Inside is a level 1 cord to plug into your LEAF. ChargePoint can charge your credit card for the charge. However, the stores with the chargers near me are paid for by the stores where they are located. Free Level 1 charging. I'll use it when I'm there. EVDRIVER, you don't have to use a Level 1 charger:

Opportunity charging on 120V while shopping is pointless unless you shop for 8 hours,

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but some of us will, if we are there.

My electric company's Peak Time is from 2pm to 6pm, only 4 hours. I'm not home so AC is turned up when I'm gone. There is an option to have Off Peak rates all weekend at $ 0.063 per kWh. This is when I do most of my laundry, want the AC cool, and usually cook more.

Also, I'm having 27 Sunpower panels installed soon. This will generate about 860 kWh each month. The first 500 kWh of power that I buy from the electric company are at the lowest rates. I will not have a separate meter for EV charging. I will be able to get that information by connecting to my home charger via the web. If I always charge during the Off-Peak times, I'll know how much I'm spending to charge my LEAF.

6.3 cents??? how is it we in WA State have the cheapest electricity?? i pay 9.3 cents per KWH... that is total cost, connect charge, taxes, etc.

here we dont have peak rates, its based on consumption and you pretty much have to live in a cave to not use tier 2 rates. on mine, tier one covers up to around 500 KWH a month or so.

now we used to have real cheap rates because we were getting a kickback from the Bonneville Power admin. they were subsidizing our rates at a 1½ cents per... that was nice.

as far as plugging into 110 volt, i am fine with u not doing it but as for me, i do it every chance i get and frequently for no more than 20 mins. i dont care if i only get a ½ mile out of it. its still free, takes less than a minute to plug in, etc. plus i do it so others can see me do it. (i get accused of driving a Smart Car all the time... HATE THAT!! i mean i have a large lime green ELECTRIC on BOTH sides... can u not read??)

as far as pay stations; trust me, someone will market it. be it Better Place or someone else. u would probably pay a monthly maintenance fee and then a kwh rate probably equal to the peak rate or over for power used. either way, it would still be cheaper and more convenient than getting gas.

on my Prius, i get gas about once a month. on my SO's Prius, its once a week and its a pain just to have to go there. as far as being a hassle to carry a cord around to plug in, only someone who DOES NOT have an EV would say that

Azrich said:

Here is an interesting article from plugincars called "Plug-in Car Economics".

http://www.plugincars.com/plug-economics.html

It sites the U.S. average rate of residential electricity as 11.7 cents per kWh. There is a chart showing the differences in prices of fully charging a Volt and a LEAF every day for a month. Washington LEAF owners, you have the distinction of having the cheapest power in the U.S.

Click to expand...

Using the average rate is deceptive, you should use the incremental rate - what is the cost of the next kWhr - to determine what it will cost you to charge your EV (or what it will cost you to add any new electrical household load). It used to be that virtually all utilities had a declining rate schedule - the more you used the less the next block of kWhrs would cost. Not necessarily true any more, especially in the summer months.

For me, in 2009, I paid an average of $0.077 per kWhr (total of my bills divided by my total usage for the year), but my incremental rate averaged $0.096.

With SDG&E the rates go WAY UP with more usage, about 13¢ per kWh for the first 300 (or so) kWh (tier 1), and about 34¢ per kWh for over about 600 kWh (tier 4).

planet4ever said:

Define "in public". If you mean a public charging station with level 1 access, you won''t be using your own cord; you'll be using one permanently attached to the charging station.

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nope. L1 charging will only provide a standard 120V-20A AC outlet, you supply your own "power cord" because there are/where different cords for different vehicles... The Coulomb Level 1 charger has a sliding door that opens and reveals a standard 120V 20A AC outet, you plug your own cord into it.

L2 charging would provide a J-1772 connector on a cable..

http://www.coulombtech.com/products-charging-stations.php

So, if one uses their "included" plug-in L1 EVSE to connect in public places, how will one keep their L1 EVSE from "going missing"?

garygid said:

So, if one uses their "included" plug-in L1 EVSE to connect in public places, how will one keep their L1 EVSE from "going missing"?

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For the Coulomb boxes, the little door that opens has a small notch for the cord to protrude from, but that won't stop someone from cutting the cord and just replacing the 120V plug... The only real way to stop someone is to include the charging cord on every EV, and by doing that they will become so inexpensive, it wouldn't be worth "stealing" someone else's cord, because they are dirt cheap...