LEAF Charging Costs

[garygid]

I suspect that the LEAF's "included" L1 EVSE will be over $200 to replace, perhaps as much as $400.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Consider this, If you are a PG&E customer and charging a leaf, it is not unlikely your bill will be 300% of baseline which is easy to accomplish. That puts the cost per kwh at $.32. Charging only 20 kwh of the pack will cost $6.40 and with a realistic range of freeway and hill driving in the bay area of 60 miles this means if you had a car that got 30 mpg which is not tough at all, you would be paying the equivalent of $3.20 per gallon. Compare this to the realistic specs of the Aptera that would get a solid 120 miles plus on on the same energy and you would be paying half that amount. Weight and aerodynamics are a huge factor and the real cost to charge the Leaf is directly related to its size and very high curb weight. Even with a pack twice the size the Leaf only becomes less efficient as the weigh goes up further. As an EV the Leaf is not very efficient, this is a reality of it's weight. Anyone who has done an EV conversion knows that if you want range you need to shed the weight, this is why the donor cars were always the lightest possible. The Leaf was designed to fill the needs of a broad market, that design gives it more utility but it compromises efficiency which reduces range and increases the cost to operate. This is a fundamental basic premise of an EV that many people do not understand or tend to forget. Not to mention kills the 0-60 time.

Some PG&E customers in SF that have solar where it only reduces their bill on E6 could actually be paying $.80 per kwh in some cases so the cost can be $16 to go 60 miles or so! This could reduced on a dedicated meter, but of course SF bans PG&E customers from having one! BE glad if you are not on Pirate Electric & Gas. Once again, an efficient home reduces this tier cost and those with say 10kw of solar will most likely pay nothing to charge or run their home, the very lucky few that do

 

[DeaneG]

Charging only 20 kwh of the pack will cost $6.40 and with a realistic range of freeway and hill driving in the bay area of 60 miles this means if you had a car that got 30 mpg which is not tough at all, you would be paying the equivalent of $3.20 per gallon.

Glad I'm not the only one blowing this horn. Seems like California's TOU rate structures must change to make EVs attractive rather than just possible.

I saw the CPUC basically has control over CA utilities' TOU rates. Might be worth asking them what their plans are.

 

[evnow]

Glad I'm not the only one blowing this horn. Seems like California's TOU rate structures must change to make EVs attractive rather than just possible.

I saw the CPUC basically has control over CA utilities' TOU rates. Might be worth asking them what their plans are.

In CA I think PV would make a lot of sense, in that case. It is opposite to what we have in Seattle, average electricity rates (10 cents, all the time) and little Sun.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Glad I'm not the only one blowing this horn. Seems like California's TOU rate structures must change to make EVs attractive rather than just possible.

I saw the CPUC basically has control over CA utilities' TOU rates. Might be worth asking them what their plans are.

In CA I think PV would make a lot of sense, in that case. It is opposite to what we have in Seattle, average electricity rates (10 cents, all the time) and little Sun.

You don't produce at the high rate of $.80 but if you consume more than you produce you get billed at that rate based on the tiers. You would need to produce at peak 300% of baseline. And the eve rates are very high. $.10 is a great deal!

 

[johnr]

In case it's helpful to anyone, here are the EV tariffs for SCE (Southern California Edison) customers.

Schedule TOU-D-EV (a single meter for both vehicle and house): http://www.sce.com/NR/sc3/tm2/pdf/CE324.pdf
Schedule TOU-EV-1 (vehicle on its own separate meter): http://www.sce.com/NR/sc3/tm2/pdf/ce114-12.pdf

Now I have absolutely no idea how to decipher these charts...

 

[planet4ever]

In CA I think PV would make a lot of sense, in that case. It is opposite to what we have in Seattle, average electricity rates (10 cents, all the time) and little Sun.

You don't produce at the high rate of $.80 but if you consume more than you produce you get billed at that rate based on the tiers. You would need to produce at peak 300% of baseline. And the eve rates are very high. $.10 is a great deal!

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Yes, anything beyond 300% does put you into tier 5, and that is very expensive, though not $0.80 where I live. Roughly:
$0.66 summer weekdays, 2PM to 9PM
$0.25 midnight to 7AM weekdays, and all but 5PM to 9PM weekends
$0.47 the rest of the time

But you certainly shouldn't have to have 10kW of solar panels to keep you below 300%. If you can stay below 200% of baseline (say by producing 1/3 to 1/2 of what you use) you can drop those rates quite dramatically. For me, again roughly:
$0.30 summer weekdays, 2PM to 9PM
$0.06 midnight to 7AM weekdays, and all but 5PM to 9PM weekends
$0.11 the rest of the time

And the rate for what you produce does match the rate for what you would consume at that same time of day/week. So while I will only get $0.06/kWh most of the day on weekends, and $0.11 much of the rest of the time, I will get $0.30 most(*) of the afternoon on summer weekdays. And this applies to everything I produce, not just what gets fed back into PG&E's lines, since every kW I produce is a kW I don't buy from them.

Naturally I will set the Leaf to start charging at midnight on weekdays, 9PM on weekends, so I expect to do most if not all of my charging at about 6 cents/kWh!

* Due to DST, peak sunlight is at 1PM. By "most of the afternoon" I mean most of the time after peak sunlight.

 

[evnow]

And the rate for what you produce does match the rate for what you would consume at that same time of day/week. So while I will only get $0.06/kWh most of the day on weekends, and $0.11 much of the rest of the time, I will get $0.30 most(*) of the afternoon on summer weekdays. And this applies to everything I produce, not just what gets fed back into PG&E's lines, since every kW I produce is a kW I don't buy from them.

Exactly - avoidance of expense is as good as getting paid.

BTW, at 6 cents, you pay less than what we pay.

 

[Gonewild]

I live in AZ with SRP as my provider. I Am on the TOU plan and weekdays it is (Summer) on peak 1 PM-8 PM and off peak from 8 PM Friday to 1 PM Monday weekend rate.

 

[EVDRIVER]

In CA I think PV would make a lot of sense, in that case. It is opposite to what we have in Seattle, average electricity rates (10 cents, all the time) and little Sun.

You don't produce at the high rate of $.80 but if you consume more than you produce you get billed at that rate based on the tiers. You would need to produce at peak 300% of baseline. And the eve rates are very high. $.10 is a great deal!

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Yes, anything beyond 300% does put you into tier 5, and that is very expensive, though not $0.80 where I live. Roughly:
$0.66 summer weekdays, 2PM to 9PM
$0.25 midnight to 7AM weekdays, and all but 5PM to 9PM weekends
$0.47 the rest of the time

But you certainly shouldn't have to have 10kW of solar panels to keep you below 300%. If you can stay below 200% of baseline (say by producing 1/3 to 1/2 of what you use) you can drop those rates quite dramatically. For me, again roughly:
$0.30 summer weekdays, 2PM to 9PM
$0.06 midnight to 7AM weekdays, and all but 5PM to 9PM weekends
$0.11 the rest of the time

And the rate for what you produce does match the rate for what you would consume at that same time of day/week. So while I will only get $0.06/kWh most of the day on weekends, and $0.11 much of the rest of the time, I will get $0.30 most(*) of the afternoon on summer weekdays. And this applies to everything I produce, not just what gets fed back into PG&E's lines, since every kW I produce is a kW I don't buy from them.

Naturally I will set the Leaf to start charging at midnight on weekdays, 9PM on weekends, so I expect to do most if not all of my charging at about 6 cents/kWh!

* Due to DST, peak sunlight is at 1PM. By "most of the afternoon" I mean most of the time after peak sunlight.

Are you on E6? Do you have large loads, this applies to solar customers with large homes on PGE. I have customers with 600 amp services that if they put solar on every roof surface of their home it would not pull them out of 300%. The TOU rates on E6 are brutal compared to those without solar. I personally have no electric bill and generate a bit more than I use but that will change with an EV.

 

[LakeLeaf]

Define "in public". If you mean a public charging station with level 1 access, you won''t be using your own cord; you'll be using one permanently attached to the charging station. If you mean stealing electricity that someone else is paying for (like we all do with our laptops at airports), well, yes, you're on your own.

There are places - such as airport parking garages - where it would be very convenient to be able to plug in a Level 1 charger. I've asked our local airport if they might simply designate a couple of spaces near an existing 110V outlet as "Electric Vehicle Only" parking spots. Here you just would plug your own wand in. I've said I'd even be happy to put some cash in an envelope and drop it in a paybox.

I've also showed them where they can get information about installing charging stations and collecting revenue on them, however doing the math it's pretty clear that for the foreseeable future just allowing the few electric vehicles to recharge for free or on the honor pay system is a far more economical way to support the cause. A sign and a little paint plus the few dollars in power used vs. thousands dollars for a pay-for-charge charger install and all of the person time in figuring out all of the details.

At some point in the future when there are lots and lots of EV's out there, then maybe it's time to rethink, but for now it would be great just to get a designated spot near an outlet and let us use the 110V wands that come with the car.

I think this is quite a reasonable request.

 

[planet4ever]

Are you on E6? Do you have large loads, this applies to solar customers with large homes on PGE. I have customers with 600 amp services that if they put solar on every roof surface of their home it would not pull them out of 300%. The TOU rates on E6 are brutal compared to those without solar. I personally have no electric bill and generate a bit more than I use but that will change with an EV.

The numbers I was quoting were for the E9-A schedule (whole house with an EV) that I expect to be using when I get my Volt.

Yes, I am currently on E6. We have a fairly large house with 5 bedrooms and two full kitchens. We are an extended family, currently 5 adults and a teenager, though we have had up to 8 living here. We used to hit tier 5 quite regularly. Since installing a 7 Kw solar system three and a half years ago we have exceeded tier 3 only three months, and all three were when we had an infant in the house in a poorly heated room during the winter. (Tier 3 is up to 200% of baseline, and since PG&E treats us as a single-family residence, our baseline is the same as that for an elderly couple.)

In my opinion, people who cannot pull their rates down to tier 3 by adding solar panels (assuming they have a place to put them) need to look seriously at conserving.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Are you on E6? Do you have large loads, this applies to solar customers with large homes on PGE. I have customers with 600 amp services that if they put solar on every roof surface of their home it would not pull them out of 300%. The TOU rates on E6 are brutal compared to those without solar. I personally have no electric bill and generate a bit more than I use but that will change with an EV.

The numbers I was quoting were for the E9-A schedule (whole house with an EV) that I expect to be using when I get my Volt.

Yes, I am currently on E6. We have a fairly large house with 5 bedrooms and two full kitchens. We are an extended family, currently 5 adults and a teenager, though we have had up to 8 living here. We used to hit tier 5 quite regularly. Since installing a 7 Kw solar system three and a half years ago we have exceeded tier 3 only three months, and all three were when we had an infant in the house in a poorly heated room during the winter. (Tier 3 is up to 200% of baseline, and since PG&E treats us as a single-family residence, our baseline is the same as that for an elderly couple.)

In my opinion, people who cannot pull their rates down to tier 3 by adding solar panels (assuming they have a place to put them) need to look seriously at conserving.

Or getting now homes, I have half the solar you do and I have no bill. Remember, many wealthy people have large homes with high parasitic loads form central light panels, control systems, etc. etc,. In fact I know people that draw over 3000 watts with everything shut off.

 

[Kataphn]

Los Angeles city Department of Water and Power will offer a rate of 2.5 cents per kWh for nighttime and weekend charging of EV using TOU meter. We plan to have this second meter installed for charging our Leaf. We do not want TOU for our whole house. I will post more info about DWP and EVs as I get it under "utilities" forum in the local area discussion.

 

[LEAFer]

2.5 cents per kWh

INSANE ! Excellent ! :mrgreen:

 

[mwalsh]

Los Angeles city Department of Water and Power will offer a rate of 2.5 cents per kWh for nighttime and weekend charging of EV using TOU meter. We plan to have this second meter installed for charging our Leaf. We do not want TOU for our whole house. I will post more info about DWP and EVs as I get it under "utilities" forum in the local area discussion.

But then how much for the second meter install?

 

[Kataphn]

But then how much for the second meter install?

We don't know yet. I am still hoping we will be a part of EV Project. Last I heard LA DWP was not going to use the dual meter adapator on the existing meter which would be the cheaper way to go because it was "not UL approved" even though they have been using them for years prior to this. So far, all I have been able to do so far without the home assessment is to have the DWP field guy come to the house and make a drawing of where the second meter should be placed.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

2½ Cents is unreal. that really shows a major motivation on their part. what is the normal off peak rates?

 

[tbleakne]

You'd need to contact your local utility, their clean-air helpline if they have one. My utility wants me to pay for the second meter, which is too expensive to be practical in my situation, but it sounds like at least one other's utility will do the work for free.

SCE (Southern California Edison) has a program for second meter dedicated to car charging port. This is one advantage of having a special charging port - the utility can give you a special rate for the car alone. You can keep your house on your regular rate tariff. The second meter has a TOU (Time-of-Use) tariff. Off-peak is Midnight to 6 AM. Off-peak price was 8 cents/kwh, but they just raised it to 6 cents/kwh distribution + generation (4-6 cents/kwh), total up to 12 cents/kwh. For folks in other areas, this probably sounds high, but SCE normal rate is tiered, and if you use A/C in afternoon on hottest months, like I do, I fall into tier 3 for several months per year, which is about 24 cents/kwh. There appears to be no charge (except installation) for the second meter, and there is a 50% tax credit for the installation. I have had the Edison Service Planner at my house, but he told me the second-meter option was a different department.

Has anyone else contracted to install the second meter ?

 

[evnow]

... if you use A/C in afternoon on hottest months, like I do, I fall into tier 3 for several months per year, which is about 24 cents/kwh.

A/C in the afternoon would be the ideal load for a PV. The generation & load would be well matched.