I need an under 20KW DC ChaDeMo Quick Charger

Here's the deal. San Diego Gas and Electric, and our enlightened state of California, has a little rule that enables any electrical load over 20kW (say, an EV charger) to pay..... a lot.

So, in my efforts to circumvent this little charge, I've come up with several ideas:

1. Find a DC quick charger that is designed to either operate on less than 20kW, or is adjustable, or can be modified in some way to not exceed 20kW.

2. Some magic box that would fit between the charger and SDGE's meter that can divert any load over 19kW to an alternate power source.

3. Obviously, running a 60KVA generator is an "easy" solution, but even that has its limits in California.

Hi Tony,
Good thinking....There's always the possibility of putting a small battery storage plant on the back end of the charger that could help reduce the demand when charging...It would make the installation more expensive initially, but that could help temper the demand charges.

For your scenario, you'd also need a separate meter to feed the DCFC. That's not always possible, so some of the 20kW may be taken up by existing customer load...

It's real challenge, for sure...

Is that 20kW for the load or 20kW for the site?

Let's see, get the 50 kW fast charger and only connect one of the three phases to a 208V leg and connect the other two to neutral... Ha only one leg of 208V * 100A = touch over 20 kW! If only it would work! (Who knows, maybe it will with one of the QC's!!) :lol: :lol:

SQC - Sort of Quick Charger!!

Really need to work on Nissan to get a 12 - 20 kW onboard charger, possible as an option and then a few well placed, inexpensive 70A or 80A 240V J1772 charger.

TonyWilliams said:

Here's the deal. San Diego Gas and Electric, and our enlightened state of California, has a little rule that enables any electrical load over 20kW (say, an EV charger) to pay..... a lot.

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Are you talking residential or commercial? Up here in PG&E territory I don't see any rule like that for residential, so I think you may be mistaken in blaming the state. PG&E's residential rate includes single-phase and polyphase, and is billed strictly on total kWh, not at all on maximum kW. Their commercial rates are quite another matter.

Ray

planet4ever said:

Are you talking residential or commercial? Up here in PG&E territory I don't see any rule like that for residential, so I think you may be mistaken in blaming the state.

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Commercial from SDGE.

In a nutshell, the rate for under 20kW "A" rate is about 8 -12 cents. That's it! Simple and doable.

Over 20kW is the ALT-TOU rate has an off peak winter rate of 7 cents, and 10 cents at peak summer. Even better!!! Except that pesky infrastructure energy cost. Originally, I thought it was "only" $25 per kWh, but that's for "primary" 4000 volt service. "Secondary" 240/480 volt service has a $60 fee, plus $5, plus another $15, equals...... $80 per kWh, per month, FOREVER.

A peak energy draw of 50kW would equal $4000 every month; plus electricity.

The generator concept has limits as to how many months of continuous use are allowed for STATIONARY generators in California, according to the Air Resources Board (CARB). So, the obvious answer is a truck or trailer mounted generator, and move the thing on a timetable.

Batteries concept:

A battery charger at 19.99999999kW max power draw pumping up a stack of batteries (how big, I don't know), and then a gigantic inverter, to then be converted to DC to pump in the car, seems horribly inefficient. But, for $48,000 per year in SDGE "demand" charges can buy a lot of equipment and inefficient electrical power.

ChaDeMo DC charger: $ 15,000- $30,000 costs the same for any plan

Less than 2 years of the demand charge will buy this:

60 kWh inverter: $35,000 (about the price of a new 60KVA gen-set)
Big Battery pack: $25,000 (total for 100kWh; $1500 per 6kWh Trojan Product ID: IND29-4V)
240 volt charger: $ 5,000 (under 20kW draw charger)
Install, tax, license, and destination charges: $ 20,000-?

Total $85,000, except for the ChaDeMo DC charger.

We've got a couple bucks left over from two years of the SDGE demand charge, so let's throw in $11,000 worth of solar for a nice sun shade.

Here's the link to the SDGE AL-TOU rate: http://www2.sdge.com/tariff/com-elec/ALTOUsecondary.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How are the demand charges calculated between the $14/kW non-coincident charge, $7/kW on-peak summer charge and $5/kW on-peak winter charge?

For example: If you draw 20 kW for 15 minutes on-peak in the summer - what's the demand charge? What if you draw 20 kW off-peak and 10 kW on-peak summer?

The rest is pretty straight forward.

Edit: Figured it out thanks to this document: http://www.sdge.com/documents/forms/understand_tou.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you draw 20 kW off-peak and no power any other time, your demand charge is $14*20 = $280.
If you draw 20 kW on-peak summer, your demand charge is $14*20 + $7*20 = $420.

So on-peak summer 50 kW DC quick charging will ring up a cost of $1050/month - on top of the ~$0.09 / kWh summer electricity costs.

Edit 2: Oh wait - I see that there's an additional $5 on-peak summer commodity demand charge. Adjust the numbers above accordingly.

You really need to use that quick chargers as much as possible to lessen the hit on the demand charge. Worst case scenario you only charge once a month on-peak summer for 30 minutes. You're going to pay $50 / kWh! But if you can put that charger in use 24/7, the cost will be about $0.13 / kWh - not bad! You definitely want a way to buffer the quick charger from the grid to minimize cost if possible.

This one is 20KW output.

mitch672 said:

Small 20KW and 30KW Chademo charger developed by Japanese company, this looks like it could be deployed in European homes with 3 phase... of course "small and light" are all relative, its still 150 or 170 KG

http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/new/new113.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Credit for the find: "Transport Evolved" podcast, and Nikki Gordon Bloomfield

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Still, even with Only ONE 19.9 kW Charger, that does NOT solve the problem, unless each charging station is a separate "business".

Any other usage (lights on, etc.) or multiple charging stations would result in over 20kW usage peaks.

The real solution is for the PUC to edict that electrical usage for "Vehicle Charging Stations" is NOT subject to "demand" charges, and must have a reasonable rate structure.

In the meantime, it appears that QC will suffer, and be delayed, just as some "forces" would like to have happen.

Because, with economical and well-deployed QC, the EV becomes a REAL competitor to the ICE and OIL usage!

TonyWilliams said:

Except that pesky infrastructure energy cost. Originally, I thought it was "only" $25 per kWh, but that's for "primary" 4000 volt service. "Secondary" 240/480 volt service has a $60 fee, plus $5, plus another $15, equals...... $80 per kWh, per month, FOREVER.

Click to expand...

So what is the price of an adequately sized 4000/208 transformer?

Cheers, Wayne

TonyWilliams said:

Batteries concept:

A battery charger at 19.99999999kW max power draw pumping up a stack of batteries (how big, I don't know), and then a gigantic inverter, to then be converted to DC to pump in the car, seems horribly inefficient. But, for $48,000 per year in SDGE "demand" charges can buy a lot of equipment and inefficient electrical power.

ChaDeMo DC charger: $ 15,000- $30,000 costs the same for any plan

Less than 2 years of the demand charge will buy this:

60 kWh inverter: $35,000 (about the price of a new 60KVA gen-set)
Big Battery pack: $25,000 (total for 100kWh; $1500 per 6kWh Trojan Product ID: IND29-4V)
240 volt charger: $ 5,000 (under 20kW draw charger)
Install, tax, license, and destination charges: $ 20,000-?

Total $85,000, except for the ChaDeMo DC charger.

We've got a couple bucks left over from two years of the SDGE demand charge, so let's throw in $11,000 worth of solar for a nice sun shade.

Click to expand...

I think your planned setup is inefficient. Why take DC from the batteries, go to AC, then back to DC? Eliminate the inverter. The Batteries charge at ~48kW for less than 20 minutes, then switch to a lower charge rate. If you use the 20kw from the grid feeding in additionally, you would only need around 15kWh of batteries-- eliminate 85% of the batteries. Modifications to quick charger circuit should be able to handle charging those batteries also- eliminate the charger. Installation wouldn't be that much. And quick chargers developed by Nissan cost less than $10k with the promise to reduce those costs further. A properly engineered, mass produced battery-buffered quick charger should cost around $25k.

But more than likely Nissan will use its government partnerships to fix the problems regarding installing quick chargers before it ever comes to that. Try talking to the management of your utility before you do anything drastic.

Above, many posts appear to be quite misleading, saying $25 or $80 (etc.) per kWatt-HOUR (kWh), when the charge it is just per peak power kWatt (not energy usage kWatt-hour), right?

I guess if your peak use is more than 20 kW, you might just as well do it all day, every day.

What are the TOU intervals for commercial, and does having substantial PV help, or does one cloudy, dark day kill that possible benefit?

Do other PUs throughout CA have the same (or similar) monthly "peak-demand" charges?

garygid said:

Above, many posts appear to be quite misleading, saying $25 or $80 (etc.) per kWatt-HOUR (kWh), when the charge it is just per peak power kWatt (not energy usage kWatt-hour), right?

I guess if your peak use is more than 20 kW, you might just as well do it all day, every day.

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Yes, if you go over 20kW for one second, you get popped for the full charge for kilo-watts (not hours, of course).

So, it doesn't matter how many or how much energy is used after that for the month (within that peak kW load that triggered the charge.

ht2 said:

This one is 20KW output.

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That is EXACTLY what I was looking for !!!!

Makes all the other problems go away.

:mrgreen:

garygid said:

Still, even with Only ONE 19.9 kW Charger, that does NOT solve the problem, unless each charging station is a separate "business".

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For a rudimentary infrastructure, it's probably smarter to spread out the extremely limited chargers, than worry about how many to install at one location.

Way down the road when there may be more than one at a location, the charges from the electrical utility for EV recharging may be significantly different.

Any other usage (lights on, etc.) or multiple charging stations would result in over 20kW usage peaks.

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Of course. The beauty is that it's simple math. Just like Apollo 13, where they have to power the LEM, and not go over a certain electrical load. That's what we need.

Lights, and other low demand features could be battery powered, and charged when the 20kW load isn't operating.

The real solution is for the PUC to edict that electrical usage for "Vehicle Charging Stations" is NOT subject to "demand" charges, and must have a reasonable rate structure.

Click to expand...

But, those aren't the cards we're handed today.

wwhitney said:

So what is the price of an adequately sized 4000/208 transformer?

Cheers, Wayne

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Well, we still have the $25/kW charge, even with this. But, an excellent question. I'll have to call them back and ask.

lne937s said:

I think your planned setup is inefficient. Why take DC from the batteries, go to AC, then back to DC?

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We're on the same page... here's what I said in that same post >>>> "then a gigantic inverter, to then be converted to DC to pump in the car, seems horribly inefficient."

Eliminate the inverter. The Batteries charge at ~48kW for less than 20 minutes, then switch to a lower charge rate. If you use the 20kw from the grid feeding in additionally, you would only need around 15kWh of batteries-- eliminate 85% of the batteries.

Click to expand...

What is the input to the DC quick charger? I'm guessing 480 3 phase AC? How do you get the batteries of the charging station to power that without an inverter?

Modifications to quick charger circuit should be able to handle charging those batteries also- eliminate the charger. Installation wouldn't be that much. And quick chargers developed by Nissan cost less than $10k with the promise to reduce those costs further. A properly engineered, mass produced battery-buffered quick charger should cost around $25k.

Click to expand...

That Nissan charger isn't here yet. How much would it cost to make all these modifications? Installation includes the outlandish permit fees in San Diego.

Overall, my technique for guessimating the overall cost is not to lowball each cost, and then add it all up. I've built enough things in my life to know that never works out.

But, of course, once a reasonable strategy can be found, and frankly, yours sound best so far, then some accurate cost estimates can be made.

But more than likely Nissan will use its government partnerships to fix the problems regarding installing quick chargers before it ever comes to that. Try talking to the management of your utility before you do anything drastic.

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The California Utilities Commission recently met, and they don't meet again for some time. The fees are their requirement, although it looks like SDGE inflates the costs over other utilities.

The utility is unlikely to do anything, frankly. That's wishful thinking.

We work with the cards dealt us today, and mitigate the impact to the best of our ability. Everything else is sitting on our hands; waiting, wishing , and hoping.

TonyWilliams said:

..
1. Find a DC quick charger that is designed to either operate on less than 20kW, or is adjustable, or can be modified in some way to not exceed 20kW.
..

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A couple of other possibilities:

Takasago TQVC200M1 (20kW)
Look at bottom of this page for specs in the far right column
http://www.takasago-ss.co.jp/products/power_electronics/sp/tqvc/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hasetec used to make a model# BC03-3P3W (12kW)
I can't, however, find a current listing for it:
http://www.hasetec.co.jp/product/batterycharger/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How about flywheel energy storage as an alternative to a battery-buffered system? Forget about all the AC->DC->AC->DC conversion, and save yourself from having to replace the batteries when they'll inevitably lose effectiveness in a few years. It could even double as a rotary phase converter for QC installation where 3-phase power is not readily available.

richard said:

TonyWilliams said:

..
1. Find a DC quick charger that is designed to either operate on less than 20kW, or is adjustable, or can be modified in some way to not exceed 20kW.
..

Click to expand...

A couple of other possibilities:

Takasago TQVC200M1 (20kW)
Look at bottom of this page for specs in the far right column
http://www.takasago-ss.co.jp/products/power_electronics/sp/tqvc/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hasetec used to make a model# BC03-3P3W (12kW)
I can't, however, find a current listing for it:
http://www.hasetec.co.jp/product/batterycharger/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click to expand...

Interesting... We're looking at rated charging power which makes sense for how to rate and name the units, but we need to also look at input power since that's what's subject to the demand charge and the input power is a little more than the output power. For the Takasago TQVC200M1 (20kW), the input power is 22kW.

We need to locate a QC with 15 to 18 kW output, so the input is under 20 kW, presuming under 20 kW for a single load and not the site is enough to avoid demand charges. Or back further down to 12 or 15kW which would be 14 -16 kW input power, leaving 4 - 6 kW for other loads at the site, while keeping the entire site under 20 kW.

Aker Wade shows a 36 kW unit with integrated energy storage. Not enough details in the "spec sheet" but this must mean batteries integrated into the unit to reduce peak utility demand kW: http://akerwade.indigofiles.com/AkerWade_EVFC_Specsheet.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Takasago TQVC200M1 (20kW) Googled to english

Hasetec Quick Chargers Googled to english

Nichicon's 20 kW unit: http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/new/new113.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I also ran into the ChaDEMO web site, with Quick Charger listings and other goodies: http://chademo.com/02_CHAdeMO_Chargers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They only have AeroVironment with a UL listing, though as I recall AV is at the high end of the QC prices.

And an international Quick Charger locator map: http://chademo.com/04_maps.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; So many Google pins marking locations in Japan, you can't even see the land mass! (at the zoomed out view of course)

Plug In America charging hardware listing, including QC. Don't use the charge level filter - it's not working right and filters out most of the Quick Chargers. http://www.pluginamerica.org/accessories" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TonyWilliams said:

Yes, if you go over 20kW for one second, you get popped for the full charge for kilo-watts (not hours, of course).

Click to expand...

I believe that demand charges are calculated over 15 minute intervals, not over seconds.

You could use 50 kW for 6 min and you would only get hit by a 20 kW demand charge. Heck, if you time it right (spanning over 2 different 15 min intervals) you can effectively reduce your demand charge to 10 kW thanks to creating scheduling.

TonyWilliams said:

So, it doesn't matter how many or how much energy is used after that for the month (within that peak kW load that triggered the charge.

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Well, any additional usage within the same demand won't increase the demand charge, but it sure will increase your energy charge.

FWIW - I looked up my largest 15 min usage from the last couple months since I got my EVSE installed - looks like 1.8 kWh over 15 minutes which would be a 7.2 kW demand charge. My minimum was -0.6 kWh meaning my peak export to the grid was 2.4 kW. That was during peak times - does that mean I would get credited for that.

I imagine it's a lot of fun trying to calculate the effects of installing a PV system on a commercial utility bill...