Range collapse

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Ogen

Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Messages
5
This is my first post so apologies for any breach in protocol. I would like to relate an ongoing experience to see if anyone has had similar issues or if anyone has suggestions.

I've owned my car for about 3.5 years but it has very low mileage -- about 22,000 miles. I pay attention to Nissan's recommendation for optimal battery life, specifically:
- I do not have fast charging (400v) capability
- It is garaged indoors and the temperature here (Silicon Valley) rarely reaches 90 degrees
- It never sits with an empty battery
About a year and a half ago my wife started driving the car. At the time, we had Nissan test it, mostly out of curiosity. It’s behavior was essentially “like new”. The range has been very consistent since it was new, with a slow degradation.

We lost the first bar on the range scale recently, so I should expect a battery capacity drop of 15% to 20.4 KWhr and a range of 69 miles under our typical conditions. In fact, as recently as two months ago, we routinely got a range near 70 miles.

While the expected range does, in fact show about 69 miles, recently, the actual range abruptly dropped from about 70 miles to less than 50 miles. Last week, my wife found herself in a situation where she could not make it home. She found the nearest dealership and I came to pick her up. A service technician at the Dealership drove the car the next day and immediately agreed that it is not behaving properly. However, he needed Nissan to approve any work. A Nissan tech drove it two days later and concluded that it is within specs. I was asked to come pick up the car. On my way home from the dealership I drove on a lightly travelled highway, late at night, averaging 4.3 Miles/KWhr (per the dashboard).

After calling Nissan corporate and escalating the issue, the file was reviewed and it was agreed that something must be done. They told me they would replace one module in the battery. The technician at the dealership agreed with me that this was not likely to make a difference and, sure enough, it did not. I just drove it home this afternoon and, once again was able to barely squeeze 40 miles out of it. I never exceeded 65 MPH and the maximum elevation difference over the entire trip was about 500 feet.

I have a set of pictures taken of the dashboard during the trip. they show the estimated range dropping by about 1.5 to 1.75 mile for each mile that I actually drove, going from 67 miles to 0 while I actually drove 40 miles.

Nissan says that their guarantee relates to the indicated range (e.g. the number of bars lost) but not to the actual range. Seems like a cute exercise in legalese. So now, I have a large paperweight sitting in my garage.
 
Get leafspy and see what it shows for cell voltages. Perhaps they replaced the wrong module or there are more failing.

I'd not give up on it without the additional information.

Other things to consider - did anything else change on the car (new tires, hit a curb and knock alignment out of wack)? Are your temperatures significantly lower lately (seems unlikely given where you live, but I do see quite the drop here with near freezing temps).
 
Slow1 said:
Get leafspy and see what it shows for cell voltages. Perhaps they replaced the wrong module or there are more failing.

I'd not give up on it without the additional information.

Other things to consider - did anything else change on the car (new tires, hit a curb and knock alignment out of wack)? Are your temperatures significantly lower lately (seems unlikely given where you live, but I do see quite the drop here with near freezing temps).


Wouldn't a failed module decrease the capacity but not the ability to get a high mile/kWh?
On your trip where you got 4.3 mile/kWh, what would you expect to have got before driving like that?

I second that other advice, also check your psi in the tires. Stuck calipers maybe (should pull if it's just one side though). Try jacking up each wheel and seeing how well they spin compared to the others. Maybe that electronic parking brake is semi stuck. I'm pretty sure your car has it, my newer one doesn't, and I'm pretty sure it works on all 4 wheels so you wouldn't feel it in the steering.

Does it feel like it's slower as well?
 
Have you been charging to 100% and leaving it that way, especially in warm weather? (Temps in the eighties will suffice for degradation, IIRC.) As for the efficiency, that's essentially a rating of the drivetrain, not the battery, so yes, it could be high even with a low capacity battery.
 
thanks for all the quick responses.

regarding the car itself: it was inspected at the dealership so any low tire pressure, brake, etc... issue was probably addressed

Regarding the 65MPH. Good point, but that was just the highest speed I ever reached. I use a trip tracking app on my iPhone (mostly for hikes and bike rides but it works for car trips too). My average speed was 39.5 MPH which is actually slower than I would usually drive and I was getting 70 miles of range until very recently.

the temperature has indeed dropped here recently but not that dramatically and, in case, the problem started while we were still having t-shirt weather, a bit over a month ago.

If my math is right, a one bar loss should translate to 20.4KWhr of capacity. If I was really getting 4.3 miles/KWhr that should translate to 87 Miles of range. I am not sure I trust the usage rating though. Over a very long period, I have averaged 3.4 miles/KWhr which should translate to 69 miles of range and that is exactly what I had been getting until recently.

There is another odd bit: recently, when I go down a hill the apparent increase in range is extremely optimistic (several mile of added range over the course of less than a minute) Of course it all disappears as soon as I am back on level ground. I am not an electrical engineer but it seems to me that this is what's happening:

Some of the cells are off line or very nearly so. If that is the case than all the activity (both charging and discharging) happens much faster as only some of the cells are charging and only some of the cells are providing juice when I am driving. Does any of this make any sense?
 
Hello,
Because the batteries are in series (each battery having 4 cells series/parallel) any one cell will limit the entire pack capacity. The system is designed not to let any cell go below a certain voltage so when one cell depletes the car goes turtle even though there is capacity left in the other cells. It's a "weakest link" type of power system meant to protect the pack from over charge or over discharge. Running a lithium cell dead usually kills it off or brick's it in common vernacular.
 
Yes, I was imagining something like that. As I recall, Tesla's most precious patent has to do with how they configure the batteries so that they are not subject to this weakest link syndrome.

The thing is, Nissan did replace one module and there is no difference whatsoever. I assume they checked the tire pressure brakes steering etc...

This weekend I will be able to run Leaf Spy so I will be able to report further.
 
Ogen said:
thanks for all the quick responses.

regarding the car itself: it was inspected at the dealership so any low tire pressure, brake, etc... issue was probably addressed



If my math is right, a one bar loss should translate to 20.4KWhr of capacity. If I was really getting 4.3 miles/KWhr that should translate to 87 Miles of range. I am not sure I trust the usage rating though. Over a very long period, I have averaged 3.4 miles/KWhr which should translate to 69 miles of range and that is exactly what I had been getting until recently.

There is another odd bit: recently, when I go down a hill the apparent increase in range is extremely optimistic (several mile of added range over the course of less than a minute) Of course it all disappears as soon as I am back on level ground. I am not an electrical engineer but it seems to me that this is what's happening:

quote]

I wouldn't be so sure about the dealership getting the PSI right. I got my leaf delivered and the cold tire pressure was 30psi. It's very important to set the pressure cold, most dealerships will not bother to ever do this, it takes too much time. I worked at a dealership for a few years. To properly set tire pressure it should be first thing in the morning, the sun should not be on them yet and they shouldn't be driven at all. Almost all techs would pick up a car for pdi, or repair (especially if it was about something that complained about how it drove) take it around the block for some hot laps before brining it in. They can't turn out as many cars if the bring it in cold, check the pressures then go out driving. That's how they do 3hr service jobs in under 45min.

Anyways it's an easy fix to see if low pressure is any of your problem. No matter what the condition of the tires, hot/cold, driven/parked fill it up to 48psi. Park it over night then first thing in the am set the pressure. 38 is normal for the leaf, also many dealerships won't check specs but fill to "normal car" 30-32. You can safely run 44 and even higher in the winter and it will make a big difference in range.

Regarding your second point, the guess o meter. It's useless. You've quoted it far too many times. When going downhill with a tail wind it will start to assume you are always going downhill with a tail wind. It will use a very short avg, not the avg you have reset for your economy meter to guess at it. So even though you might be doing 4.3 mile/kWh if for the last short bit you were at 3.3 it will give you a guess o meter number based on that.

My commute for example is 90miles round trip with a charge at work. On my way to work it's mostly downhill and the wind is usually at my back. I live on top of an escarpment. I will always drive to work and the guess o meter will assume I'll keep driving that way, it will show me 90 to 130 when I'm done charging at work. After driving home 45 miles and having that escarpment right at the end after I fully charge at home it will show me 70 to 106. So the trip that assumes I have 106 (at home to work) actually is better and more efficient. The miles will come off at a slower rate and the trip that assumes I have 130 is less efficient and the miles will come off at a faster rate. In bad weather I have used over 85% to get home and I'd be shocked to use over 70% to get to work. You can only get an idea of how the car is by driving the same route to the same place over and over and eliminating the days that are out of the ordinary, high winds, super cold and comparing the similar days.

If you want to be for sure if you live close to a leaf hypermiller meet up and get them to drive your car and you drive there's. In tee shirt weather I wouldn't expect to get anything under 4.6 miles/kWh.
 
The OP has owned the car for awhile, but I always tell folks (who ask) there are *2* things that kill range on a Leaf:
1) Speed (high)
2) Temperature (cold)

My interpretation is you experienced BOTH of these factors around the same time and--combined with known capacity degradation--got surprised. In my experience, the range drops tend to happen in "chunks" (probably due to the BMS re-adjusting for degradation), after which you see stable range again (until the next "chunk"). Assuming you have verified no bad cells, etc., this is part of the Leaf aging process, and why many of us who are eagerly awaiting a (warranty) replacement battery pack. As has been said, the GOM is useless, and the older the battery pack gets the more useful (necessary?) some sort of LeafSpy/LeafDD is.
 
Makes me wonder . . . When they dropped the 80% charge option, was it just for the milage rating, or, after collecting data from all of our cars for so long, have they decided that going to 100% and keeping the pack balanced is best? Maybe an unbalanced state contributes to cell bricking?

Ogen did you mostly do 80%?

If you search under "bad cell" , you'll find a few threads like this: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16087" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As they age, this could be more of a problem than heat degradation.
 
Ogen said:
... A service technician at the Dealership drove the car the next day and immediately agreed that it is not behaving properly. However, he needed Nissan to approve any work. A Nissan tech drove it two days later and concluded that it is within specs. ...

After calling Nissan corporate and escalating the issue, the file was reviewed and it was agreed that something must be done. They told me they would replace one module in the battery. The technician at the dealership agreed with me that this was not likely to make a difference and, sure enough, it did not. ...
It would be more helpful if your dealer gave you more real information on what tests they did, what they found, what they replaced, and why. They should share the test results with the customer.

They likely did Cell Voltage Loss Inspection (CVLI) and replaced a module.

But surprised it would only be one module.
LEAF Spy Pro CVLI test on my battery of similar age and miles shows eight weak cells.

The LEAF battery software takes a long time to adjust to changes.
Bit surprised they didn't reset it to force it to relearn the battery situation with the replaced module.
But in either case it could take weeks to see any change in range capability.

But also possible they needed to replace a lot more modules.

I would use LEAF Spy Pro to see what the CVLI currently shows, start with where it first works and go down to very low battery warning or maybe turtle. Ask for dealer test results and see how they compare.

But as some others said you may have just finally hit the point where you recognize the range loss and that change may have been fairly abrupt with loss of the first capacity bar.
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
Makes me wonder . . . When they dropped the 80% charge option, was it just for the milage rating, or, after collecting data from all of our cars for so long, have they decided that going to 100% and keeping the pack balanced is best? Maybe an unbalanced state contributes to cell bricking?

Well, the recommendation was dropped for Model Year 2014 and 2015. We don't know if this applies to earlier model years because NISSAN WON'T TELL US.
 
Ogen said:
thanks for all the quick responses.

regarding the car itself: it was inspected at the dealership so any low tire pressure, brake, etc... issue was probably addressed

WRONG!!! the dealer recommended setting WILL cause a range loss. Recommend 44 PSI for longer range AND longer tire life. if the max makes you uncomfortable and it shouldn't then, I recommend no lower than 42.

on the average speed; its BS and you know it. sitting at a stop light IS NOT GOING TO INCREASE your efficiency. so slow it down.

depending on traffic, weather ,wind conditions and your driving skills, your car very well could be within normal ranges for your level of degradation. you need to get a battery monitoring device to really know for sure.

I have tracked every trip I have in EVs since Nov 2007 and I can tell you its very possible to see a 25% difference in performance based on outside conditions. The other day, I drove 58 miles in my LEAF (estimated degradation about 3-4%) and it was a struggle when normally I would breeze 80 miles with room to spare.

but then again that 40 mph headwind might have affected it a bit....
 
The summary of the work from the dealer says that cell 87 was low by 100mv and was replaced.

I just checked the tires and confirmed that all four were at 38 PSI. I understand from several posters that higher may be better but it certainly not as if I've been driving a LOW tires.

On the average speed, the information I gave is actually real. I did not hit a single stop light and driving conditions were pretty close to ideal: highway driving with light traffic. When I say the maximum speed was 65MPH that was just while passing. I was driving about 50MPH most of the time. In any case, the car was reporting an average of about 4.2 to 4.3 miles per KWhr.

Again, keep in mind: A couple of months ago, we were able to drive 70 miles. Nothing external has happened to the car since then and the weather here in Northern California has been good.

My charging pattern is to charge after every medium to long trip (e.g. all but very short trips) and I charge to 100%.

I have a .gpx file with the trip and a word document showing successive pictures of the dashboard. I have had the car for 3.5 years and it is obvious that there has been a very dramatic change very recently.
 
Ogen said:
The summary of the work from the dealer says that cell 87 was low by 100mv and was replaced.

I just checked the tires and confirmed that all four were at 38 PSI. I understand from several posters that higher may be better but it certainly not as if I've been driving a LOW tires.

On the average speed, the information I gave is actually real. I did not hit a single stop light and driving conditions were pretty close to ideal: highway driving with light traffic. When I say the maximum speed was 65MPH that was just while passing. I was driving about 50MPH most of the time. In any case, the car was reporting an average of about 4.2 to 4.3 miles per KWhr.

Again, keep in mind: A couple of months ago, we were able to drive 70 miles. Nothing external has happened to the car since then and the weather here in Northern California has been good.

My charging pattern is to charge after every medium to long trip (e.g. all but very short trips) and I charge to 100%.

I have a .gpx file with the trip and a word document showing successive pictures of the dashboard. I have had the car for 3.5 years and it is obvious that there has been a very dramatic change very recently.


ok, then keep in mind a 10 º drop in air temp equates to roughly a one degree drop in tire pressure and your tires need to be set when they are COLD. if your driving is true, then there is another issue at stake. your performance if mostly a steady drive at 40-50 mph should have been higher so you either had hills you dealt with poorly, head winds, cold weather, alignment, etc.

everything makes a difference when you are driving a car that is highly efficient.
 
I charge to 80% most of the time and still have pretty much the original range after 18 months and 10k miles. When I charge to 100% I give it extra time to balance, and that seems to work ok. I don't think charging to 80% is an issue unless maybe it's done *all* the time.
 
Have you watched your energy screen, to make sure nothing else is drawing a lot of power, like your heater? That's one thing that really annoys me about the Leaf, but not enough yet to pull the dash apart and mod it. It turns the heater on even when I don't really ask for it, but just have the temperature control set a little higher than ambient. :roll:
Please report back as soon as you get a LeafSpy report. Hopefully it will be more enlightening.
 
Ogen said:
If my math is right, a one bar loss should translate to 20.4KWhr of capacity. If I was really getting 4.3 miles/KWhr that should translate to 87 Miles of range.
Your math is not right, so let's start there:

First, even though the capacity of your LEAF's battery was 24 kWh when new, you never had access to the top or bottom portion of that capacity. In reality, you likely had access to about 21 kWh. That was your starting point 3.5 years ago.

Second, you have lost one capacity bar. That does not mean you have lost 15% of your battery capacity. It means that you have lost OVER 15% of your battery capacity. You may have lost more than 20% of your capacity. That would put your usable capacity below 17 kWh IF your pack is fully balanced.

Third, as the pack degrades, the resistance of the cells increase, and that increase is not even between cells. This results in more difficulty for the BMS to keep the cells balanced. If you normally charge only to 80%, the imbalance can get fairly severe, particularly in cold weather. That might lower your available capacity, when full, further to about 15 kWh, depending on cell balancing. (To balance the cells fully, charge overnight from 120V or charge several days in a row to 100%.)

Finally, there is an effect that goes on in some LEAFs that Nissan has never explained, but as the battery ages, the BMS reports LBW at a higher and higher SOC. Some of this is normal, since the BMS reports LBW at a constant energy level remaining of around 4 kWh. But the effect is much greater than degradation would imply. A new LEAF reports LBW at about 17% SOC. But experience here indicates some LEAFs with one capacity bar lost sometimes report LBW at as high as 28% SOC. (This effect occurs with VLBW also. There have been some reports of fairly significant range existing below VLBW.) What this last point means is that it is possible that when you or your wife think the car is out of charge it may actually have real range left. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to know whether that is true or not using just the instrumentation in your LEAF. As others have recommended, LeafSpy will give you significantly more information.

So, the bottom line is that rather than the 87 miles you calculated, your range to empty is likely 4.3 mi/kWh * 15 kWh = 65 miles. In addition, you might expect to get LBW after driving 47 miles. If you normally get an efficiency of only 3.4 mi/kWh, then your range may only be 3.4 mi/kWh * 15 kWh = 51 miles, with LBW coming on after as few as 37 miles.
 
Thanks for the clarification on batter capacity. That makes more sense.

I do have LEAF Spy Pro now. If anyone has specific suggestions on what metrics I should be looking for and the conditions (e.g. fully charge, nearly depleted) under which I should report them, please make suggestions.

Separately, someone mentioned that it might take the car some time to adjust to the maintenance work that was done. I did drive it on during the weekend on an extended test and can report that I did indeed get much better range out of it.

It seems that the difference between regular and ECO mode and between AC on and AC off is now much more dramatic than when the car was new. Is this typical?
 
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