GRA
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IEVS: Standard Swappable Batteries: The Future For Electric Scooters?

Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:16 pm

https://insideevs.com/standard-swappable-batteries-electric-scooter/

. . / Some manufacturers have already announced that they are working on the development of swappable batteries technologies and docking stations to accommodate them. Provided a large-enough network of docking stations was established, this swap-and-go system could help solve the age-old issues companies have been facing when trying to market electric vehicles. No more need to go for lunch or wait around while your motorcycle is charging—all you would have to do is unplug the battery, plug it at the charging station, and swap for a fully charged battery.

With enough of these stations spread out, charging an e-bike would become as simple and as quick as filling up a gas tank. So it’s good news that certain manufacturers, including Yamaha and Honda, are looking into developing and mainstreaming the technology.

There is a downside, however: just like Apple and Android phones are not compatible, each company is working on its own protocol. This means there could be as many different models of swappable batteries as there are models of bikes that use them. This also means that unless the charging ports are standardized (like c-chargers or lightening chargers for smartphones), there would have to be enough battery-specific charging stations to support every brands’ products. If that doesn’t give you a headache, I don’t know what will.

There’s light at the end of the tunnel, and I’m surprised it’s taken this long for someone to step up to the plate. The answer to this conundrum is a standard battery. That is what Taiwan e-scooter maker Kymco is suggesting. The company would like to develop a swappable-battery electric scooter platform that other manufacturers could use to build their own models that would ultimately use the same type of battery across the board. This means that technical support for the batteries would be centralized and only one type of docking station would be required for a wide variety of vehicles.

At the moment, Kymco and its partner Ionex’ are targeting fleet owners and ride-sharing programs by offering a turn-key service that provides customers with the swappable batteries technology, the charging stations, the software and app to manage the fleet, and the electric scooters. Though there is more of a commercial focus on this plan, a public application isn’t too far behind.

Owners of future electric scooters, and eventually, electric motorcycles, would be able to either travel without worrying about range and charging time, but this could also open the door to keeping multiple batteries at home, which would simplify electric vehicle ownership for the entire family. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: IEVS: Standard Swappable Batteries: The Future For Electric Scooters?

Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:09 pm

Kymco has the right idea. As it is you have cheap Chinese scooters with a good price point but nowhere near the resources available to build any infrastructure, and you have European manufacturers making scooters that cost more than some cars. Even if they did put in swapping stations few would buy the scooters. As well as swapping, it's more realistic to also have scooters like mine, with fairly large batteries and relatively fast onboard chargers that can use anything from a 120 volt household plug to an EV L-2 station to charge.
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GRA
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Re: IEVS: Standard Swappable Batteries: The Future For Electric Scooters?

Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:47 pm

A related article from IEVS:
Gogoro Announces Battery Swap and Delivery Partnerships
https://insideevs.com/gogoro-battery-swap-delivery-partnerships/

. . . Scooters are big in Taiwan. People use them there like we use cars here for everything from basic transportation to delivery. The island is small enough that range anxiety is less of an issue than it is here, and electric scooters have been going mainstream. Manufacturer Gogoro has taken another big step toward this by announcing strategic partnerships with two other scooter manufacturers, as well as two delivery services to use its scooters.

Gogoro already has built not only a lineup of sleek little electric scooters but also an infrastructure of swappable batteries. The deal is that you buy the scooter, then subscribe to a service that allows you to swap battery packs at any of Gogoro’s 750 battery swap stations. Rather than having to stop and recharge you just exchange batteries and go.

So far, every manufacturer seems to have their own proprietary system, meaning that you can’t pop a Gogoro battery into a Kymco scooter. Gogoro has announced a partnership with scooter manufacturers Aeon and PGO to use Gogoro’s batteries, enabling their scooters to use the Gogoro Energy Network already in place. This is a huge step toward the standardization that will solve one of the biggest problems facing electric vehicles today.

Additionally, Gogoro announced partnerships with DHL and Taiwan Post to supply them with Gogoro 2 Utility scooters, which are built specifically for commercial use. Delivery services require frequent starts and stops over short distances, a task for which electric vehicles excel. The limited range can be an issue for businesses that need their vehicles to be on the road to make money, but Gogoro’s swappable batteries solve that problem. . . .

We really need to get away from routinely using 3-8k lb. vehicles (however powered) to transport a single person, especially in urban areas choked by cars and their parking spaces.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: IEVS: Standard Swappable Batteries: The Future For Electric Scooters?

Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:11 pm

We really need to get away from routinely using 3-8k lb. vehicles (however powered) to transport a single person, especially in urban areas choked by cars and their parking spaces.


The Oxygen Lepton was ahead of its time - although not so much in the battery department. It was small, agile, and fast enough to accelerate faster than typical drivers in non-race mode. If they had built it to do even 35MPH (it was limited to 25 because of the hobbling NEV standards)) if would have been a success. I had mine almost 10 years. Now it looks like skateboard style "scooters" have taken that slot over.
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GRA
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Re: IEVS: Standard Swappable Batteries: The Future For Electric Scooters?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:51 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
We really need to get away from routinely using 3-8k lb. vehicles (however powered) to transport a single person, especially in urban areas choked by cars and their parking spaces.


The Oxygen Lepton was ahead of its time - although not so much in the battery department. It was small, agile, and fast enough to accelerate faster than typical drivers in non-race mode. If they had built it to do even 35MPH (it was limited to 25 because of the hobbling NEV standards)) if would have been a success. I had mine almost 10 years. Now it looks like skateboard style "scooters" have taken that slot over.

I think there's room for both. The stand-up scooters for first/last mile use, but sit down scooters for longer trips or when you want to carry an extra person or reasonable amount of cargo. I agree that 35 (or maybe 45) mph is more than enough for urban use off freeways, but 55 will probably be wanted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62TWxmYu7jY

Larry Burns (ex-GM, been consulting for Chauffeur/now Waymo) was pushing vehicles like this while he was at GM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EN-V ISTR he was quoting under 1k weight for one of these. Note that while the prototypes had manual controls, the intention was always to develop them for full autonomy. After leaving GM and before Chauffeur, he also worked with a group at MIT on this approach: https://www.media.mit.edu/projects/citycar/overview/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: IEVS: Standard Swappable Batteries: The Future For Electric Scooters?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:05 pm

"Full autonomy" as in "self-driving"? I don't think many people - me included - would be ok with that!
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GRA
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Re: IEVS: Standard Swappable Batteries: The Future For Electric Scooters?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:28 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:"Full autonomy" as in "self-driving"? I don't think many people - me included - would be ok with that!

Yes, and you'd be surprised. Naturally the percentage drops after a well-publicized accident, but AVs will (eventually) be far safer than human drivers, while also allowing people who can't drive (too young, too old, disabled) to get around freely. It's the companies like Tesla and Uber who are pushing the tech far too fast for safety that worry me, because they run the very real risk of creating a backlash against AVs that will be much less of a problem when done by more responsible companies.

As with most high-income countries we have an aging population whose driving skills and responses will rapidly decline as they enter their '70s and especially their '80s. I saw what happened to my dad when his license was pulled at 88 (and should have been several years earlier, as he got into several accidents in that period that wouldn't have happened if he'd had his previous reaction times); his independence disappeared, and so did most of his social life as he was dependent on me driving him around for everything he needed or wanted to do, and I often wasn't available when he wanted to go somewhere. He even said to me once that he was no longer living, just existing. This was before ride-sharing so he'd have more options now, but that's too expensive for people on limited incomes. Sized for the job and safer, BE AVs employed as Mobility as a Service will be a lot cheaper than Uber/Lyft (Uber said in the Levandowski court case that 70-90% of their cost was the driver).

I should have at least a decade and hopefully two or more of driving yet, but I'll be in the same position eventually if I live that long. Mass transit doesn't cut it, at least until we restructure our living patterns (many empty-nest boomers are moving back to cities from suburbs precisely for car-less access to services), and even then AVs will be far more convenient than mass transit in serving this population.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: IEVS: Standard Swappable Batteries: The Future For Electric Scooters?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:42 pm

I'm not sure we're on the same page. I thought you were talking about self-driving scooters...

Ok, I watched the vid. So many fails! Anything described as "28MPH" will likely do an actual 25MPH - too slow, and in many cases too expensive as well. The Gogoro (sp?) seems like the best bet, although a couple of the others would do for urban-only riding. Those like the Ford scooter are too expensive for the modest speed and range they provide. And the narrator keeps mixing "KWH" and "KW," and describing the "battery" "powering" the bike to X speed (usually 30MPH or less) for added annoyance. The motors, when mentioned, are usually "engines." The Vespa? Who knows, as the only spec given was range. My Oxygen Lepton, BTW, was built just a few miles from a Vespa plant in Italy, and looked like one. Oxygen did come up with a cargo scooter, rumored to go 45MPH (although I suspect it was only 45KPH), and that failed as well. Here is, IMHO, what a real scooter needs to be an actual success. I have taken economics into account as well as performance.

* A single frame with two available drivetrains, and two bodies that can be mixed and matched. One Vespa style "classic" body with lots of storage and one "tall wheel" (usually 16") modern motorcycle style body. Tall wheel scooters ride and handle better.

* One 30MPH "Urban" drivetrain with a roughly 2.5kw motor and enough battery capacity to provide a range of up to 35 miles, with a removable pack and a fast recharge time. It would be geared or tuned to provide enough acceleration to beat typical traffic to 25MPH from stoplights.

* One "Cruiser" drivetrain with a 4+kw motor capable of sustained 45MPH (limited) to ~58MPH (limiter off) speeds, and a battery that can provide a range of ~60 miles (limiter on) to 40+ miles (limiter off). This version could also have a one or two battery option, with a low base price, that can have a second battery added later.

* Built-in cargo storage (amazingly about half of the above scooters lack this), with an available robust top box that doubles or triples that storage. The folding scooters need at least an optional folding basket.

* Smart phone connectivity. (This doesn't much interest me, but it would be necessary for the modern market. The app could turn the limiter on or off, as well as perform the other functions mentioned in the video.)

* Fully waterproof components and good lighting. You'd think this wouldn't have to specified, but it does, believe me.
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Re: IEVS: Standard Swappable Batteries: The Future For Electric Scooters?

Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:10 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:I'm not sure we're on the same page. I thought you were talking about self-driving scooters...

No, although that may be possible. I expect two-wheeled AVs to be something like the EN-V initially developed by Segway for GM, i.e. self-balancing with side-by-side wheels rather than tandem.

LeftieBiker wrote:Ok, I watched the vid. So many fails! Anything described as "28MPH" will likely do an actual 25MPH - too slow, and in many cases too expensive as well. The Gogoro (sp?) seems like the best bet, although a couple of the others would do for urban-only riding.

Agreed, something like the Gogoro is what I have I mind for a sit-down scooter, essentially a standard gas scooter powered by a battery.

LeftieBiker wrote:Here is, IMHO, what a real scooter needs to be an actual success. I have taken economics into account as well as performance.

* A single frame with two available drivetrains, and two bodies that can be mixed and matched. One Vespa style "classic" body with lots of storage and one "tall wheel" (usually 16") modern motorcycle style body. Tall wheel scooters ride and handle better.

* One 30MPH "Urban" drivetrain with a roughly 2.5kw motor and enough battery capacity to provide a range of up to 35 miles, with a removable pack and a fast recharge time. It would be geared or tuned to provide enough acceleration to beat typical traffic to 25MPH from stoplights.

* One "Cruiser" drivetrain with a 4+kw motor capable of sustained 45MPH (limited) to ~58MPH (limiter off) speeds, and a battery that can provide a range of ~60 miles (limiter on) to 40+ miles (limiter off). This version could also have a one or two battery option, with a low base price, that can have a second battery added later.

* Built-in cargo storage (amazingly about half of the above scooters lack this), with an available robust top box that doubles or triples that storage. The folding scooters need at least an optional folding basket.

* Smart phone connectivity. (This doesn't much interest me, but it would be necessary for the modern market. The app could turn the limiter on or off, as well as perform the other functions mentioned in the video.)

* Fully waterproof components and good lighting. You'd think this wouldn't have to specified, but it does, believe me.

Looks like a good list, and lacking any personal scooter experience (minibikes would be the closest), I defer to yours. For me personally, I intend to keep moving under my own propulsion (walking and biking) for local use for as long as I'm physically capable, so motorized personal transport isn't the way I'm looking to go, but I realize that the vast majority of people prefer not to propel themselves if given a choice (and even I'm glad that I have the option of hopping into my car if I'm really not up for riding that day due to illness, weather or being late).
Last edited by GRA on Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: IEVS: Standard Swappable Batteries: The Future For Electric Scooters?

Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:05 pm

The reason that the 'ride & drop' scooters are so popular is that even though skill is required to ride them safely, it isn't required to just get on one and go frighten pedestrians on your way to work. People usually choose the easiest option over the best option. That's why the audio quality of the music to which we listen has fallen well below that of the 1980s...anyway, that means that the scooter market will have to be driven by those who actually like scooters with real bodies that can safely travel 20 miles. Designing $1999 scooters for the disposable scooter crowd is what I call a "pre-failed concept."
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