Indirect economical benefit of EVs

My wife made an interesting point about the benefits of the limited range of EVs.

She pointed out that when you're driving an EV as a primary car you tend to limit your range of travel. As you limit your range of travel, the destinations where you spend your money tend to be closer to home, within your state, county, borough, city. One of the greatest ways to strengthen an economy is to support the local economy as much as possible.

Any thoughts on this?

its a great thought if it works. i have not really limited my travel because of the LEAF. if we need to we just switch cars and drive the Prius.

now i will say that "burning" electrons is basically keeping it "home grown" so ya, i could go with that

Actually, I used to limit my trips so as not to waste gas (== money).

Now I tend to make more trips. Or drive faster.

I understand the logic. However, in my particular case I don't limit my driving because I have an EV. I picked my EV to fit my driving habits, not the other way around.

It doesn't work that way with us. We have not changed our shopping or travel habits to fit in to the Leaf's range. Rather, we have changed which car we drive based on where we are going and what we want to do. If it is outside the useable range of the Leaf, which is about 10% of the time, we take the other car.

PracticingHuman said:

My wife made an interesting point about the benefits of the limited range of EVs.

She pointed out that when you're driving an EV as a primary car you tend to limit your range of travel. As you limit your range of travel, the destinations where you spend your money tend to be closer to home, within your state, county, borough, city. One of the greatest ways to strengthen an economy is to support the local economy as much as possible.

Any thoughts on this?

Click to expand...

Zythryn said:

I understand the logic. However, in my particular case I don't limit my driving because I have an EV. I picked my EV to fit my driving habits, not the other way around.

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+1
...only now I drive more instead of bicycling

garsh said:

Actually, I used to limit my trips so as not to waste gas (== money).

Now I tend to make more trips. Or drive faster.

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Reddy said:

Zythryn said:

wrote:
I understand the logic. However, in my particular case I don't limit my driving because I have an EV. I picked my EV to fit my driving habits, not the other way around.

Click to expand...

+1
...only now I drive more instead of bicycling

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"Paging Mr. Jevons . . . Will Mr. William Stanley Jevons please pick up a White Courtesy phone?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am likely to drive further to shop as fuel cost is now lower.
Although it would be tough to drive 100 miles to one of those outlet centers.

GRA said:

"Paging Mr. Jevons . . . Will Mr. William Stanley Jevons please pick up a White Courtesy phone?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click to expand...

Probably true, but aging in the past 20 yrs seems to increase my driving more

Edit: Thinking about it a bit more, the aging has balanced out the ICE use. The ICE is 1992 (20 yr) and ~150,000 mi = 7500 mi/yr. The Leaf is less than 13 months and has 7200 mi. Hmmm, I'm averaging less driving with the Leaf . Again, probably related to aging (e.g., fewer weekend camping trips and the like).

OT, I recently spent $100 in a nearby town because charging ($2) required an extended visit. If I had driven the ICE, I would have filled up ($50) near home, driven past that town (or maybe stop for $5 coffee/snacks), and arrived at my destination with more benefit to the oil industry than the local economy.

Reddy

The Leaf has not changed my driving distances much, but has hugely impacted my style of driving. I drive like an old lady. I use the frontage roads (which are always empty) and not the highway so I never exceed 45 mph. I am much more relaxed as a driver as well. I do this because my solar panels power my home and my car, and if I drive this way I can avoid any electric bill at all. Free clean driving, didn't think I would see it in my lifetime.

Supporting the local economy has more to do with where the ownership, production and materials for the business are located rather than the physical location of the retail outlet. Driving a short distance to the Walmart near my house to buy products produced in China and sending the profits to Bentonville, Ark does little to help my local economy. Buying local is about purchasing products and services that are produced locally and providing profits to local business owners who will recirculate the money they make in the local economy.

GRA said:

"Paging Mr. Jevons . . . Will Mr. William Stanley Jevons please pick up a White Courtesy phone?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click to expand...

Again, not in my case. We actually drive less than we did just a few years ago. Not due to range limitations though, just due to awareness.

In general, I don't disagree with the paradox. I expect many people do react this way. Just not everyone.

GRA said:

...
"Paging Mr. Jevons . . . Will Mr. William Stanley Jevons please pick up a White Courtesy phone?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click to expand...

My driving is also down significantly - from about 30,000 miles per year to about 6K. Jevon's may do a nice job with 'unconscious' processes, but thankfully we all get to make other choices.

I think the real economical benefit of EV's will depend on who chooses to buy them.

I have saved a lot of monthly bill payments by purchasing my Leaf outright. When I had no solar panels my fuel bill went from over $300 a month to around $100, electricity included, with two drivers, one in an ICE that gets about 25MPG.

Going from a Silverado to a Leaf has a real impact on those monthly bills.

Over and above those savings, the free parking at LAX has made me really happy to travel via air. I can't say that I am flying more, but I dread it less since I can go straight to my car after a long flight home, so now the cheaper later fare is considered whereas before, I would pay a little more to arrive a bit earlier. The amount LAX says I saved this year is close to $1000, and I don't really fly that much. Parking for a couple weeks in the terminals adds up fast though. If I took an ICE to the airport I would find cheaper parking, so the real savings is only a few hundred dollars, but the convenience factor is priceless.

Now the question is what have I done with those savings? Well, a new mortgage on a house with solar panels is now something my wife and I decided we could handle due to lower monthly outlays - so my whole lifestyle has improved, and yes, I think the Leaf played a role in that. Not the entire role mind you, but a role without a doubt. Security of monthly outlay is what the EV does for people that most don't realize until they have owned one for a year or so.

Even with that purchase, I still feel like I have more control over my money, and feel like I can afford to spend it. I do tend to seek out American made products and services, although the Leaf is an exception - but with the Tsunami and earthquake Japan was hit with when I bought, I was happy my money went there.

How many Leaf owners with a year or more of ownership feel they have more monthly money?

GRA said:

"Paging Mr. Jevons . . . Will Mr. William Stanley Jevons please pick up a White Courtesy phone?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click to expand...

Not sure that applies here. If we're considering moving from gasoline to electrons as technological progress, I would not necessarily say that efficiency has increased. Factoring the length of time it takes to charge a Leaf on average (via L2) versus filling a gas tank, I would say that efficiency is actually compromised. Increased driving of an EV in some of the cases sited in this thread has been due to the reduced cost of fueling, not because of any increased efficiency.

Once we see power consumptions in homes increase due to increased demand for EVs due to, say, 200 mile ranges on future affordable EVs, then we might be able to take Jevons' paradox into account.

I've increased my primary car—now the LEAF—mileage somewhat. Most of it is due to taking over driving from my carpool partner except when the weather is sloppy and we might need 4WD. For four and a half years he drove because he gets paid and I volunteer. Now I drive because my car uses solar electrons versus $6 of his gas. It is only one day a week but at 40 miles per trip it adds up to an extra 1800 miles on my LEAF versus his SUV.

So, like many others here, my LEAF mileage tends to be higher than the ICE car it replaced. But I do notice that driving my LEAF efficiently has improved the driving of my secondary ICE car slightly. Not a lot because I was an easy-does-it driver before, but I do find myself using some efficient driving techniques a bit more in the ICE car now. When I drive it at all, which is seldom.

I echo the theme developing in this thread: I don't necessarily drive LESS with the Leaf (although I've taken a lot of miles away from my wife's ICE car), but I certainly drive more efficiently and relaxed which has led to more driving enjoyment.

AndyH said:

GRA said:

...
"Paging Mr. Jevons . . . Will Mr. William Stanley Jevons please pick up a White Courtesy phone?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click to expand...

My driving is also down significantly - from about 30,000 miles per year to about 6K. Jevon's may do a nice job with 'unconscious' processes, but thankfully we all get to make other choices.

Click to expand...

Sure, but it also depends on the motivation of the individual. My annual mileage has dropped over the years due to deliberate changes in my lifestyle, and more recently due to high gas prices as well. I've had my current car for 9 years and 8 months and have just passed 59,000 miles, averaging a bit over 6,100 miles/yr (at least 80% of the total is highway mileage). But I've driven less than 3,000 miles in the past 12 months by rigorously combining or eliminating many discretionary trips, and using my feet, bike and/or public transit to the maximum extent possible (and I've always been less car-dependent than the average American - I'm writing this in a library ~14 miles from where I live, which I biked to as I've got other errands in the general area). My lifestyle choices, and the lifestyle choices of many here are hardly representative of the typical american, yet even with someone as energy and environmentally-conscious as I am, if I could drive my car the same distance for less I would use it more - when gas was $1.50 gallon or less I was driving 10-12,000 miles/year.

As the link states, _unless_ you also raise the price of the energy, energy efficiency will result in more of it being used (in the medium and long-term).

Interesting direction this thread has taken. The predominant discussion has become whether or not Leaf/EV drivers drive more or less than they did in an ICE vehicle...

The thread initially asked if we tend to wander shorter distances away from home base. It may be true that people drive more, but is that increased driving more limited to where they can go on a full charge, considering how long it takes to get a charge back up in the BEV? If this is the case, would reducing our driving distances mean spending more money locally?

NOGASHOLE made the best point to this regard:

NOGASHOLE said:

Supporting the local economy has more to do with where the ownership, production and materials for the business are located rather than the physical location of the retail outlet. Driving a short distance to the Walmart near my house to buy products produced in China and sending the profits to Bentonville, Ark does little to help my local economy. Buying local is about purchasing products and services that are produced locally and providing profits to local business owners who will recirculate the money they make in the local economy.

Click to expand...

That is very accurate. For every $100 spent, on average $73 of it stays local when shopping at a locally owned business as opposed to only $43 of it spent at, say, Walmart.

Then it comes down to motivation for driving an EV. For me it was ecological, environmental, and economic impact. I am finding more and more of my decisions as a consumer are based on these three factors. As a result I do my best to reduce the frequency at which I shop at big box stores. For those that drive EVs for the same reasons as me would likely have similar consumer choices for similar reasons.

Nonetheless, for many other Leaf/BEV drivers the choice is primarily based on spending less on fueling costs. People who make dollar savings would be more inclined to shop at a big box store if it will offer them the lowest cost merchandise.

I suppose I'm no closer to an answer...

GRA said:

As the link states, _unless_ you also raise the price of the energy, energy efficiency will result in more of it being used (in the medium and long-term).

Click to expand...

You and I have both given real-world examples that refute the above, haven't we? :lol: