Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

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Via GCC:
Hydrogenics and Alstom Transport to develop and commercialize H2 fuel-cell commuter trains in Europe; €50M, 10-year agreement
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/05/20150527-hydrogenics.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Part:
Hydrogenics Corporation, a leading developer and manufacturer of hydrogen generation and hydrogen-based power modules, signed a 10-year exclusive agreement to supply Alstom Transport with hydrogen fuel cell systems for Regional Commuter Trains in Europe. Alstom Transport is a unit of Alstom, a France-based global leader in power generation, transmission and rail infrastructure with sales of €6.2 billion.

The agreement, valued at more than €50 million, includes the supply of at least 200 engine systems along with service and maintenance as necessary over a 10-year period. The fuel cell systems, based on Hydrogenics’s Heavy-Duty HD series fuel cells, will be developed to meet European train compliance regulations. The first units are expected to be delivered in 2016 following prototype work slated for late 2015. . . .

The HD Series units feature a liquid-cooled MEA (membrane electrode assembly) PEM stack; an integral fully integrated BOP (balance-of-plant); lower voltage/higher current; and low temperature start/shutdown. The power module does not require onboard water for humidification.

Rated electrical power for the HD180 is 198 kW continuous; peak efficiency—based on the LHV of H2, 25 °C, 101.3 kPa, including onboard parasitic loads, excluding radiator fan and water pump—is 55%.
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I find this interesting, as so much of European rail is electrified. I wonder what the rationale is for going with fuel cells. It does say this is for regional commuter trains, so perhaps this is on lines where it isn't worth it to install and maintain overhead electric feeds. Commuter lines typically see traffic in just two periods a day, unlike longer intercity routes.


Also via GCC:
CMU study compares lifecycle GHGs of natural gas pathways for MHDVs; MD BEVs can deliver large reductions, but diesel hard to beat for Class 8
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/05/20150527-cmu.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A study by Carnegie Mellon University researchers comparing life cycle greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions from different natural gas pathways for medium and heavy-duty vehicles (MHDVs) found that the GHG reduction potentials of the pathways vary sharply between non-Class 8 MHDVs (e.g., pick-up trucks, parcel delivery trucks, and box trucks), Class 8 transit buses, and Class 8 MHDVs (e.g., refuse trucks and tractor-trailers).

Battery-electric (BEVs), LPG, and CNG pathways could reduce life cycle GHG emissions for non-Class 8 MHDVs compared to the baseline petroleum fuels. Similarly, BEVs achieve emission reductions for transit buses. On the other hand, none of natural gas pathways, CNG, LNG, and F-T liquids, achieve any emission reductions per unit of freight-distance moved for Class 8 trucks compared to conventional diesel. The study is published in the ACS journal Environmental Science & Technology. . . .

The researchers focused on estimating emissions of three GHGs: CO2, methane (CH4), and N2O.

They modeled new vehicles available in the market rather than existing vehicles, and considered 7 types of MHDVs: Class 2b pick-up truck; Class 4 parcel delivery truck; Class 6 box truck (such as beverage delivery truck); Class 8 transit bus; Class 8 local-haul tractor-trailer; Class 8 long-haul tractor-trailer; and Class 8 refuse truck.

They included five vehicle engine technologies: spark ignition internal combustion engine vehicle (SI-ICEV); compression ignition internal combustion engine vehicle (CI- ICEV); hybrid electric vehicle (HEV); battery electric vehicle (BEV); and fuel cell electric vehicle (FCEV). . . .

While using natural gas to fuel electric vehicles could achieve large emission reductions for medium-duty trucks, the results suggest there are no great opportunities to achieve large emission reductions for Class 8 trucks through natural gas pathways with current technologies.
Click to expand...
 
GRA said:
...Also via GCC:
CMU study compares lifecycle GHGs of natural gas pathways for MHDVs; MD BEVs can deliver large reductions, but diesel hard to beat for Class 8...
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/05/20150527-cmu.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Click to expand...
IMO, your quote omitted the most important conclusions from the study:

...•Battery electric vehicles (BEVs) powered with natural gas-produced electricity are the only fuel-technology combination that achieves emission reductions for Class 8 transit buses (31% reduction compared to the petroleum-fueled vehicles).


•For non-Class 8 trucks (pick-up trucks, parcel delivery trucks, and box trucks), BEVs reduce emissions significantly (31–40%) compared to their diesel or gasoline counterparts....
Click to expand...
It's not clear from the article if and why BEVs were not shown to similarly outperform against class 8 long-haul ICEVs.

Study itself is not accessible, at the moment:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es5052759" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
edatoakrun said:
GRA said:
...Also via GCC:
CMU study compares lifecycle GHGs of natural gas pathways for MHDVs; MD BEVs can deliver large reductions, but diesel hard to beat for Class 8...
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/05/20150527-cmu.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Click to expand...
IMO, your quote omitted the most important conclusions from the study:

...•Battery electric vehicles (BEVs) powered with natural gas-produced electricity are the only fuel-technology combination that achieves emission reductions for Class 8 transit buses (31% reduction compared to the petroleum-fueled vehicles).


•For non-Class 8 trucks (pick-up trucks, parcel delivery trucks, and box trucks), BEVs reduce emissions significantly (31–40%) compared to their diesel or gasoline counterparts....
Click to expand...
It's not clear from the article if and why BEVs were not shown to similarly outperform against class 8 long-haul ICEVs.

Study itself is not accessible, at the moment:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es5052759" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Click to expand...
I thought the most important conclusion was that any use of NG alone as a fuel/feedstock, whatever it was then used for, showed no advantage for Class 8 trucks, and that any use of NG alone as a fuel/feedstock for any other use didn't provide any advantage. Pretty much what we knew, but good to have confirmation. It appears that to achieve reductions some combination of NG with renewables for feedstock will be needed for other than BEVs, which are often ill-suited for jobs outside of local delivery (and which everyone agrees they're best-suited for if they have adequate range). The whole point of using NG as a transition fuel is that you can gradually substitute for it with an increasing % of renewables.
 
GRA said:
The whole point of using NG as a transition fuel is that you can gradually substitute for it with an increasing % of renewables.
Click to expand...

Yet another reason to have battery vehicles to use the NatGas derived electrical power.

It's far easier to change 100 NatGas plants than a million cars.
 
smkettner said:
Yes and the transition to produce electricity direct from solar is already plug and play.
Click to expand...
Since you can also generate electricity from renewables that you then use to electrolyze H2, this applies equally to that. Of course, unless they can get the cost down equal or below gas, it won't matter, but then that's what everyone's working on (along with photochemical and thermochemical H2 production).

Anyway, via GCC:
DOE announces $26.6M SBIR/STTR FY15 Phase 1 Release 2 awards; fuel cells, batteries, power electronics and efficient combustion engines
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/05/20150528-doe.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The two fuel-cell related awards are for:

Cross-polarized Near-UV Detector for In-line Quality Control of PEM Materials
Mainstream Engineering is developing a real-time, in-line optical detector for the measurement of membrane thickness and defect detection. This quality control device will help to drive down the costs of fuel cells by reducing waste and improving the process efficiency of roll-to-roll manufacturing of polymer electrolyte membranes.
Click to expand...
This sounds to me like something to reduce the problem Toyota's Chief Engineer was talking about when he said they couldn't scale up at the moment, and I postulated that the issue was inability to maintain tolerances leading to excessive scrappage and resulting high costs.

and

Fuel Cell-Battery Electric Hybrid for Utility or Municipal MD or HD Bucket Trucks (H2BT)
The fuel cell bucket truck has no emission and saves 1,400 gallons of diesel fuel per year. It is cleaner, quieter, and friendlier to operate with a fuel cell power plant enabling mobility via renewable energy.
Click to expand...
 
GRA said:
smkettner said:
Yes and the transition to produce electricity direct from solar is already plug and play.
Click to expand...
Since you can also generate electricity from renewables that you then use to electrolyze H2, this applies equally to that. Of course, unless they can get the cost down equal or below gas, it won't matter, but then that's what everyone's working on (along with photochemical and thermochemical H2 production).
Click to expand...
I can click and buy a home solar kit. Hydrogen electrolyzer.... not so much.

Solar and BEV ready to deploy TODAY. Actually my solar was installed a couple years ago.

'equally applies' only in a theory textbook or the imagination.
 
smkettner said:
GRA said:
smkettner said:
Yes and the transition to produce electricity direct from solar is already plug and play.
Click to expand...
Since you can also generate electricity from renewables that you then use to electrolyze H2, this applies equally to that. Of course, unless they can get the cost down equal or below gas, it won't matter, but then that's what everyone's working on (along with photochemical and thermochemical H2 production).
Click to expand...
I can click and buy a home solar kit. Hydrogen electrolyzer.... not so much.

Solar and BEV ready to deploy TODAY. Actually my solar was installed a couple years ago.

'equally applies' only in a theory textbook or the imagination.
Click to expand...
I'm not talking about a home electrolyzer (but you knew that), I'm talking about variable renewables being able to generate electricity which you can then use for whatever purpose you choose. Electrolyzers exist and can be bought, but the resulting fuel is still too expensive compared to gasoline. That will have to change for FCEVS to flourish, as all the car manufacturers, fuel providers and government agencies are aware, and R&D has been and is being directed to that end.
 
GRA said:
Electrolyzers exist and can be bought, but the resulting fuel is still too expensive compared to gasoline.
Click to expand...
[
Only because the true price of gasoline is hidden while the true price of an electrolyzer is not...

GRA said:
That will have to change for FCEVS to flourish, as all the car manufacturers, fuel providers and government agencies are aware, and R&D has been and is being being directed to that end.
Click to expand...
...thus R&D isn't the only need and might not even be the most significant need.
 
AndyH said:
GRA said:
Electrolyzers exist and can be bought, but the resulting fuel is still too expensive compared to gasoline.
Click to expand...
[
Only because the true price of gasoline is hidden while the true price of an electrolyzer is not...
Click to expand...
Of course it is, but the fact is gas is so much a part of everyone's basic experience the general public ignores the subsidy, effectively making the public perception of gasoline as un-subsidized. I have little hope that perception can be changed anytime soon, so prefer to concentrate on eliminating the need for direct subsidies to H2 (and public EV charging FTM).

AndyH said:
GRA said:
That will have to change for FCEVS to flourish, as all the car manufacturers, fuel providers and government agencies are aware, and R&D has been and is being being directed to that end.
Click to expand...
...thus R&D isn't the only need and might not even be the most significant need.
Click to expand...
You've lost me there, unless you're implying that you can educate the public about the subsidies for fossil-fuels. I wish you luck with that - I'm reminded of the Upton Sinclair quote, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" Similarly, the public would have to accept that fossil-fuels aren't viable in the fairly near term for them to look elsewhere, and that will take decades barring major catastrophe. Very few of them are willing to do so and accept the personal inconvenience it would cause them, as yet. Including me (for trips), even though I'm well aware of the issues and do my best to reduce my carbon footprint.
 
GRA said:
AndyH said:
GRA said:
Electrolyzers exist and can be bought, but the resulting fuel is still too expensive compared to gasoline.
Click to expand...
[
Only because the true price of gasoline is hidden while the true price of an electrolyzer is not...
Click to expand...
Of course it is, but the fact is gas is so much a part of everyone's basic experience the general public ignores the subsidy, effectively making the public perception of gasoline as un-subsidized. I have little hope that perception can be changed anytime soon, so prefer to concentrate on eliminating the need for direct subsidies to H2 (and public EV charging FTM).
Click to expand...
I guess I see this as a real problem then. We've been subsidizing fossil fuels for more than 100 years and many of those costs are woven into just about everything we do or have. I think that 'giving up' fixing the fossil fuel subsidy problem while requiring that any new tech compete not on a level playing field but to compete on this amazingly skewed field guarantees complete failure.

GRA said:
AndyH said:
GRA said:
That will have to change for FCEVS to flourish, as all the car manufacturers, fuel providers and government agencies are aware, and R&D has been and is being being directed to that end.
Click to expand...
...thus R&D isn't the only need and might not even be the most significant need.
Click to expand...
You've lost me there, unless you're implying that you can educate the public about the subsidies for fossil-fuels. I wish you luck with that - I'm reminded of the Upton Sinclair quote, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" Similarly, the public would have to accept that fossil-fuels aren't viable in the fairly near term for them to look elsewhere, and that will take decades barring major catastrophe. Very few of them are willing to do so and accept the personal inconvenience it would cause them, as yet. Including me (for trips), even though I'm well aware of the issues and do my best to reduce my carbon footprint.
Click to expand...
I'm not suggesting that the public needs to be aware of the subsidies - that info's been available for a very long time and there are a number of organizations that continue to publish it. What I think ALL 'alternative' systems (PV, solar thermal, wind, electric transportation, ships that don't burn bunker fuel, etc.) needs is not more R&D but for a few politicians (or enough people that give a damn) to grow a large enough set of...er...to build enough intestinal fortitude to STOP subsidizing the fossils - even if that means all the rest of the subsidies stop.

This continues to be my main message here: We don't need any more tech solutions or R&D - we have all we need. All we need now is to act. The parts of the world acting are going to benefit from their transitions and those that don't are moving much closer to that 'alternative' form of motivation you mentioned.
 
Via GCC:
Linde and OMV open new hydrogen fueling station in Innsbruck
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/06/201506012-linde.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Part:
Technology company The Linde Group and OMV today officially opened a new hydrogen fueling station in Innsbruck. The H2 station with the capacity to fuel six vehicles per hour is located on one of Europe’s key transit routes and will make the journey from Germany to Italy feasible for fuel-cell vehicles.

Austria’s second public hydrogen fueling station bridges the existing H2 hubs in Munich and Bolzano. It was built as part of the EU-funded HyFIVE (Hydrogen for Innovative Vehicles) project, which aims to equip a number of cities across Europe (London, Copenhagen, Stuttgart, Munich, Innsbruck, Bolzano) for the upcoming commercialization of fuel-cell vehicles.

The Innsbruck fueling station is equipped with Linde’s proprietary 700-bar IC90 ionic compressor, which combines the advantages of low energy consumption, low maintenance and a small footprint. . . .
Click to expand...

Also:
DOE issues request for information on gas clean-up for fuel cell applications
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/06/20150602-doerfi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Talking about stationary (molten carbonate) rather than auto PEM fuel cells, but does give an idea of the sort of technical hurdles that need to be overcome to get H2 fuel costs down. Part:
The US Department of Energy’s (DOE’s) Fuel Cell Technologies Office (FCTO) has issued a request for information (DE-FOA-0001331) to obtain feedback and opinions from industry, academia, research laboratories, government agencies, and other stakeholders on the report findings from the Gas Clean-up for Fuel Cell Applications Workshop.

The Gas Clean-up for Fuel Cell Applications Workshop was held last year at Argonne National Laboratory, and featured 43 participants from industry (fuel cell, process solution providers, and material suppliers), government agencies, advocacy groups, universities, and national laboratories with expertise in the relevant fields. The objective of the workshop was to identify and prioritize:

The impurities that have the greatest impact on the complexity and performance of a fuel cell plant;

The Research and Development (R&D) strategies that can alleviate the cost for onsite removal of impurities;

The R&D strategies that will simplify a plant and reduce product cost (heat, power, hydrogen); and

The fuel processors and gas clean-up systems that facilitate modularity and fuel flexibility for a range of fuel cell technologies. . . .
Click to expand...
There's lots more detail, but I keep getting an SQL error when I try to repost it here. Also, there's a direct link to the workshop report, but I'm unable to directly link to it here.
 
GRA said:
There's lots more detail, but I keep getting an SQL error when I try to repost it here. Also, there's a direct link to the workshop report, but I'm unable to directly link to it here.
Click to expand...
The SQL errors are usually a result of a non-printing or non-standard character in a document. I paste the offending text into a programming editor (like the free Notepad ++) as it shows all characters (and should also highlight things like apostrophes that are not part of the standard alphabet).
 
AndyH said:
GRA said:
There's lots more detail, but I keep getting an SQL error when I try to repost it here. Also, there's a direct link to the workshop report, but I'm unable to directly link to it here.
Click to expand...
The SQL errors are usually a result of a non-printing or non-standard character in a document. I paste the offending text into a programming editor (like the free Notepad ++) as it shows all characters (and should also highlight things like apostrophes that are not part of the standard alphabet).
Click to expand...
Thanks to you (and mbender via pmail) for the advice; I'd looked for weird characters and tried eliminating a few likely culprits when my first attempts failed, but then just said the hell with it, as anyone can click on the link and read the article for themselves.
 
Via GCC:
Ballard to operate and support hydrogen fuel cell bus fleet in London for 5 more years
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/06/20150604-ballard.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Five buses from 2010, added 3 more in 2013, all of which will continue in service. Artcile states they've done 73,000 hours so far, with "fuel performance and reliability exceeding expectations", but no details. I think some may have been included in the FCEV bus report I linked upthread a while back.
 
Via GCC:
Ballard in $10M deal to provide fuel cell technology for 33 Clean Energy Buses in China
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/06/20150608-ballard.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

HNEI commissions fast-fill high-pressure H2 filling station in Hawai‘i
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/06/20150608-hnei.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Part [my emphasis]:
The Hawai‘i Natural Energy Institute (HNEI) has commissioned a “Fast-Fill” high-pressure hydrogen fueling station at the Marine Corps Base Hawai‘i (MCBH), Kaneohe Bay. This state-of-the-art station was developed to support a fleet of GM Equinox Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (FCEV) leased by the Office of Naval Research for use by Marine Corps and Navy personnel on O‘ahu. Operational since November 2014, this station was recently certified for unattended operation, allowing drivers to self-fill their cars just as they would do at any gasoline fueling station. Unattended operation will serve as a model for the installation of private stations throughout the state.

"We have been really impressed with the fill speed and control algorithms of the hydrogen station at MCBH. It is exciting to experience consistent 4-minute 700 bar fills. I am confident the Department of Defense (DoD) drivers of the FCEVs will be delighted as well. The algorithms to control flow have done a really good job of ensuring tank temperature thresholds are maintained without stopping fills before completion. On top of all that, the station and site aesthetic came out really well."

—Chris Colquitt, GM’s Hawai‘i Site Leader

A major challenge for hydrogen production and dispensing stations is the cost of hydrogen at the nozzle. In this project, HNEI is conducting research to assess the technical performance and economic value of an electrolyzer-based hydrogen production system in a 350/700 bar Fast-Fill (under 5 minutes) fueling station.

The technical analysis will include component efficiencies under various operating scenarios and the long-term durability of major components. The economic analysis will determine the daily operating cost of the station and the overall cost benefits of producing hydrogen. The dual fill pressure capability will allow this station to service both light duty vehicles that have largely been designed to use high pressure (700 bar) hydrogen storage and larger fleet vehicles such as buses which usually are designed for lower pressure (350 bar).
Click to expand...
 
GRA said:
Via GCC:
Ballard to operate and support hydrogen fuel cell bus fleet in London for 5 more years
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/06/20150604-ballard.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Five buses from 2010, added 3 more in 2013, all of which will continue in service. Artcile states they've done 73,000 hours so far, with "fuel performance and reliability exceeding expectations", but no details. I think some may have been included in the FCEV bus report I linked upthread a while back.
Click to expand...
Buses are a perfect place for FC technology! Especially if (or better, provided that) the H2 is made on-site and as sustainably as possible.

(imho)
 
Via GCC:
Ballard signs framework agreement with TRC for fuel cell module development to power trams in China
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/06/20150610-ballard.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

India inaugurates first solar-powered H2 fueling station; power-to-gas
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/06/20150611-india.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 

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