Is 83 miles with big elevation changes possible?

I'm wondering if the trip below is possible in a LEAF. The purpose of the trip would be to get to the Durango Nissan dealer for service and then home again. I would likely be able to get an L1 charge in Ridgway for the final drive to and from home. Failing that, an L1 charge in Ouray, ten miles closer to Durango, might be possible to arrange on each leg.

Speeds are mostly 50 mph or less — including some 15 mph curves — and one extended grade with higher speeds has a climbing lane for slow speed vehicles. Otherwise, this is all two lane mountain road, as you might expect from the terrain.


Abasile, who routinely drives mountains, suggests that charging stops in Silverton would be the best way to go. I'm inclined to agree but that limits the trip to summer months, since RV parks would be the only place I can think of to charge (and that assumes they would let me tent camp in an RV slot while charging). There is, of course, zero public charge station infrastructure in this rural area.

Any other suggestions?

If you keep your average speed at 40 mph or below, and never exceed 50 mph, I would be very confident in you making it there without having to stop to charge. Keep in mind, too, the tight curves will let you go slower, that's a plus - but, they also waste some energy due to tire slippage and changing velocity. I speak from my experience having driven into the mountains a few times, and once up to Mineral King: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4952 Notice that you only have to go about 60 miles on this charge, as the last 23 miles is all downhill. Looking forward to hearing how the trip goes

johnr said:

Notice that you only have to go about 60 miles on this charge, as the last 23 miles is all downhill. Looking forward to hearing how the trip goes

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I did a somewhat similar climb over 41 miles and ending with three fuel bars at the top (your climb is about 4700 feet, mine was about 4000). You'll have significantly thinner air for the car to drive in, than I did ( a plus for efficiency):

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=131833#p131833" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It'll be doable at a nice and slow, steady speed, but I'm sure that you know you won't have a significant surplus of gas in the tank at the top of the hill. I'd try at 45mph, but if you have to slow for corners, and then accelerate (burning precious energy accelerating), then I'd recommend whatever speed below 45mph that you can maintain for a majority of the trip (besides the 15mph corners).

Ya, the last 23 miles are a freebie... the car rolls very well.

That route between Durango and Ridgway has got to be one of the most beautiful in the nation. I've done it by bicycle and by car, and would highly recommend southwestern Colorado (specifically the San Juan Mountains) as a travel destination.

My advice remains that, while the drive should be doable, it would be best to plan on a little L1 charging in Silverton. If the unforeseen happens and you're running out of charge on that last pass, then you're either calling roadside service, or stuck in Silverton anyway. At the very least, as a backup, I would advise identifying a place in Silverton where you might be able to charge. Besides the RV park, other possibilities might be restaurants, stores, or even a personal residence if you can make a connection with someone there.

Our own mountain driving is made more comfortable by the fact that we have friends along the mountain roads we drive who would allow us to charge in a pinch. (One of our backup charge locations is a gas station! A member of the family that owns the station attends our church and has been for a ride in our LEAF.)

I have made 5 or more trips up to Lick Observatory on Mt. Hamiliton 35 miles one way with 4000 foot elevation gain and starting with 12 bars. At 4000' I have 4 bars left with 17 mile range on instant range (GOM). I use one additional bar on the return trip (pick up two bars on descent and use 3 on the freeway) resulting in 3 bars of battery power with 24 miles left on the GOM. These trips were made with daytime temperature of 80F (up trip with A/C on) and night temperature of 50F (down trip no Heater) but note that CA130 is very curvy so my speed is around 25 MPH for about 20 miles of the trip. The remainder of the trip (15mi) is at freeway speeds of 50 to 64 MPH. I drive in ECO mode for the regen but still have to apply some brake pedal for the many hairpin turns. Increasing the distance by another 10 miles of climbing is reasonable from my experience but the unknown factor for your case is the temperature impact on battery range. Based on early reports of range decrease when the temperature dropped in Washington my range anxiety goes up with the fall in temperature. It's still fairly warm in San Jose in October so I won't know the temperature impact until January and that's only down to 40F for the average.

edit for spelling...

Thanks for the feedback. I am a bit surprised that the consensus is that it can be done and I'm encouraged by the examples given. I figured with three climbs and assuming one bar per 1000 feet of elevation gain, with less recovered on the downhill side, I'd be done. My hope is that the lower air density (which Tony Williams mentioned and which has been discussed before) will also help. Since much of the middle of the drive would be in the 35 mph range that would also help. Of course, as abasile says, if I can't make that last pass northbound, I can always turn around and coast back to Silverton and go for "plan B". (I wonder what the local visitor's center would say if I asked them about places to charge?)

One thing I can do is test drive the southbound leg by driving to Red Mountain Pass (the 11,000' one) to see how many bars I use to get there and how many it takes to get back to town — a Gidmeter might help.

The Durango trip isn't something I will need to do anytime soon unless I need service, or for the annual battery checks (I hope they will let me do the first one at 17-18 months, so I can do it in summer). It also assumes that I can get a 100% charge in Durango, either at the dealer or a local RV park.

DPG, given how much I've seen your handle on the internet with all things Leaf-related, this is probably old news for you. But any Leaf-certified dealership is supposed to provide free charges to any Leaf owner regardless of where one purchases the vehicle.

Incidentally, that's very cool that you are getting yours in McMinnville, which is a lovely town. I used to live a few miles north on 99W in Newberg for 5 years, and one of my daughters was born in Newberg (the other in Roseburg, OR). Yamhill county is gorgeous. Okay, it's beautiful in its own way, but your environs where you are are BEYOND gorgeous. I'm a flatlander in the Front Range, and admire your gumption to be doing the Leaf up there. It should be an excellent car, as I have heard it handles quite well in inclement weather. Very exciting!!

Ohm Boy

I could make it...that's all I'm sayin...

OHMBOY said:

DGP, given how much I've seen your handle on the internet with all things Leaf-related, this is probably old news for you. But any Leaf-certified dealership is supposed to provide free charges to any Leaf owner regardless of where one purchases the vehicle.

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My expectation is that if I bring the LEAF to the dealer for required service they will be willing to let me charge to 100% before setting out or that I could charge at an RV park in Durango since I'd have to overnight it anyway. The question is can I make it to and from L1 charging in Ridgway to Durango in one go (home is pretty much out of the question).

Incidentally, that's very cool that you are getting yours in McMinnville, which is a lovely town. I used to live a few miles north on 99W in Newberg for 5 years, and one of my daughters was born in Newberg (the other in Roseburg, OR). Yamhill county is gorgeous. Okay, it's beautiful in its own way, but your environs where you are are BEYOND gorgeous. I'm a flatlander in the Front Range, and admire your gumption to be doing the Leaf up there. It should be an excellent car, as I have heard it handles quite well in inclement weather. Very exciting!!

Ohm Boy

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I picked the McMinnville, OR, dealer because they were willing to "deal" and they are only 38 miles from where my parents live, north of Beaverton. I was disappointed that the Durango dealer was not willing to budge on going lower than MSRP; it seems to be true of pretty much all Colorado Nissan dealers.

mossyleaf said:

I could make it...that's all I'm sayin...

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You're welcome to come by and give it a try! I think I may be able to do it also, albeit only in summer and only with a fairly new battery pack, but that remains to be seen.

The Colorado Springs area has the "Pikes Peak International Hill Climb". How about a "Durango to Ridgway LEAF Challenge"...

dgpcolorado said:

mossyleaf said:

I could make it...that's all I'm sayin...

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You're welcome to come by and give it a try! I think I may be able to do it also, albeit only in summer and only with a fairly new battery pack, but that remains to be seen.

The Colorado Springs area has the "Pikes Peak International Hill Climb". How about a "Durango to Ridgway LEAF Challenge"...

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What software were you using to generate that nice looking map with the elevation change profile?

Ualdriver said:

What software were you using to generate that nice looking map with the elevation change profile?

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I think I first noticed Tony Williams using that nifty tool:
GPS Visualizer
(The website is stated on the right edge of each plot.) You can enter a Google Map data URL in the lower right for the course to plot. Parameters of the plot can be changed in the fields on the left.

The map itself is plain old Google Maps with "Terrain" selected. I used "printscreen" to save an image of the page to clipboard, then imported the image into my photo software, Adobe Photoshop Elements (any drawing/paint program would also work). I then cropped out just the map and exported it as a JPEG file. There may be more elegant ways to do it, but that was how I managed it.

I'd say this would be a definite "Maybe". Assuming you'd get more back from regen than you'd use coming down after summiting, you only need to worry about getting to the summit 60 miles out. To do that you need to climb 1378 meters. If the loaded car has a mass of 1600 kg then you'd need 6 kWh for the climb. But the climb is up and down so toss in another kWh for the extra climbing and less than 100% regen. This means that if you start with 20 kWh of battery you'll need to travel 60 miles on 13 kWh, or, put differently, you'd have to only use 217 wh/mile. That number is not looking good.

If you have 21 kWh to start then you'd only need to use 233 wh/mile. That's better.

I dunno, how lucky are you feeling?

The trip back is less "challenging" because you don't have to drive as far before hitting the climbs.

Is it not of much importance how many people/cargo he has in the car ?
I am just thinking that weight is very important when climbing mountains.

daggad said:

Is it not of much importance how many people/cargo he has in the car ?
I am just thinking that weight is very important when climbing mountains.

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Thanks to regenerative braking, increased mass is less of a problem with EVs than with ICE cars (the "low hanging fruit" for improving EV efficiency is aerodynamic drag). But more mass probably does mean greater losses in rolling resistance and the like.

In theory, the momentum (MV) of motion and potential energy of hill climbing can be recovered but, to some degree, extra mass can be a problem because of efficiency losses when slowing or when descending hills. When slowing for hairpin turns, friction braking will likely be needed. Just coasting down hills is not safe in mountain driving and the LEAF regen is probably too weak to keep speed under control on steep grades. (The penalty for missing a turn on Red Mountain Pass is often severe because there are few guard rails on the road, so that avalanches won't be impeded in winter.)

However, I would be driving alone and my cargo would consist of a bit of camping gear. So, SanDust's estimate of 1600 kg is nearly correct.

I would not try 83 miles at all, I can't/won't drive slow enough, I always end up creeping up in speed and watch my bars go away.

The "devil" is in the small details of the trip that do not show on
the large-scale map, or coarse elevation plot:

1. Small ups (and downs) that require acceleration.
2. Friction braking on sharper turns that "eat" most of your momentum,
3. Road surface conditions,
4. Other traffic.

You certainly can make this drive. The only question is whether you will not be able do it at the speed you'd like. I'd advise driving as slowly as (safely) possible at the beginning of your trip the first time, especially if can not locate a trickle charge point en route, so as to establish a safety margin. After the first trip, you should know exactly how fast you can drive, under the same weather conditions.

I have made a similar drive several times, a little longer, but with 1,000,-2,000 less ascent/descent. About half this drive is winding and/or gravel surface mountain roads, where I drive at the maximum safe speed, and my average speed is about 30 mph. The other half is 55 mph limit 2 lane highway (with several areas of advisory lower speeds signed). I try to average about 50 mph on this section, adding a few minutes to the drive, in order to have reasonable "reserve" to make it home. I plan to repeat this drive as soon as the weather cools, to check range with a cold battery pack.

On 9/7 I drove the same route from my home to Burney Falls State Park again at slightly higher speed with more (still not much) AC use. When I reached my driveway, at 87 miles, I still had (less than) one bar, so I drove until I got the "very low battery" warning and simultaneously lost the last bar, at 91.5 miles. I got home with 93.4 miles, and between 5,500 and 6,000 ft. of ascent and descent, at an average speed of about 40 mph (those last 6.4 miles were up and down a hill at low speed). Since the last 1.9 miles after the "very low battery” warning were at about 20 mph and required about 150 ft. net descent with regen, I was probably still very close to the VLBW point capacity, when I parked.

According to CW, on this drive I used 18.7 kWh to drive 91.1 miles (CW reporting error) at average energy economy of 4.9 m/kWh...

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http://www.mynissanleaf.com/posting.php?mode=quote&f=6&p=143725

garygid said:

The "devil" is in the small details of the trip that do not show on
the large-scale map, or coarse elevation plot:

1. Small ups (and downs) that require acceleration.
2. Friction braking on sharper turns that "eat" most of your momentum,
3. Road surface conditions,
4. Other traffic.

Click to expand...

You are correct, of course. It is hard to list the details without it becoming too complex to explain. For example: northbound (the way I have it plotted) there is some 60 mph road between about 15 and 25 miles. And the last five miles is also 60 mph, fairly level, with no passing lanes; "gliding" is not an option. Several of the descents end in hairpin turns. And I've heard that part of the road has sloughed off in one spot since I was last through in May, reducing it to one lane for a short stretch controlled by a portable stoplight. [The highway department is still deciding if it can be repaired and at what price — you really have to see the road to appreciate the difficulty of repairing what was an 1880s mining toll road through a steep canyon.] I figured all that is "too much information".

Another detail I don't know how to quantify is how much benefit I will derive from the lower air density at altitude. If the average air density is, say, 25% lower than sea level, how much does that skew the speed/range numbers?

I hope to make a test drive south to the first pass (11,018') so that I can measure what it will take to turn around and drive the return leg. That trip should be well withing LEAF range and leads to some lovely hiking trailheads.

edatoakrun said:

You certainly can make this drive. The only question is whether you will not be able do it at the speed you'd like. I'd advise driving as slowly as (safely) possible at the beginning of your trip the first time, especially if can not locate a trickle charge point en route, so as to establish a safety margin. After the first trip, you should know exactly how fast you can drive, under the same weather conditions.

I have made a similar drive several times, a little longer, but with 1,000,-2,000 less ascent/descent. About half this drive is winding and/or gravel surface mountain roads, where I drive at the maximum safe speed, and my average speed is about 30 mph. The other half is 55 mph limit 2 lane highway (with several areas of advisory lower speeds signed). I try to average about 50 mph on this section, adding a few minutes to the drive, in order to have reasonable "reserve" to make it home. I plan to repeat this drive as soon as the weather cools, to check range with a cold battery pack.

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That is an encouraging report.

dgpcolorado,

Just curious, Is this road still open? Open year-round???