Hi everyone from newbie neville

I live in New Zealand and I've just joined this community because I am considering buying a second hand Nissan Leaf.

But it won't be my first electric car, because I converted a Fiat Bambina to electric 36 years ago in 1980, with lead-acid deep cycle batteries and a DC series motor. After that I did a few more similar conversions but times have changed, thanks mainly to the various lithium battery technologies!

The Leaf I have my eye on is a 2011 Gen 1 "G" model with less than 4000 miles (6000 km) on the clock.

So I'm hoping the battery will still be in excellent condition, and won't have suffered from lack of use (less than 1000 miles per year since new 5 years ago)?

I've got Leaf Spy ready to check it out when the car arrives, but does anybody have any comments or tips for how I should check it out or anything I should especially look for?

Thanks in advance.

neville said:

I live in New Zealand and I've just joined this community because I am considering buying a second hand Nissan Leaf.

But it won't be my first electric car, because I converted a Fiat Bambina to electric 36 years ago in 1980, with lead-acid deep cycle batteries and a DC series motor. After that I did a few more similar conversions but times have changed, thanks mainly to the various lithium battery technologies!

The Leaf I have my eye on is a 2011 Gen 1 "G" model with less than 4000 miles (6000 km) on the clock.

So I'm hoping the battery will still be in excellent condition, and won't have suffered from lack of use (less than 1000 miles per year since new 5 years ago)?

I've got Leaf Spy ready to check it out when the car arrives, but does anybody have any comments or tips for how I should check it out or anything I should especially look for?

Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately time and temperature are the greatest contributor to battery capacity degradation. Low miles do not factor in very much.

You're correct - LEAFspy will be the best tool for checking on the battery health. Check the # of GIDs and AHr on a 100% full charge (preferably about 3-4 hours after completing the charge, to allow the cells to balance). Also check LEAFspy's per-cell page to see whether any cells are significantly lower than any others, indicating a possible bad cell.

But others are right - time and temperature seem to be the biggest factors in determining battery health. If you can find out whether the car was ever in temps above about 38° C for days at a time, that'll likely tell you what kind of shape the battery is in.

Good luck, and (hopefully) welcome to the EV club!

Thanks firetruck41 & ahagge.

So if time is a major factor for lithium battery health that could indeed be unfortunate, a possibly a deal breaker for me.

In my old lead-acid battery days the number of charge cycles (and hence distance travelled) was the most significant factor, so I have to forget that idea now.

At least high temperatures shouldn't be an issue for this car coming from Japan.

ahagge, I see your Leaf is an older one (also 2011?) and its battery only lasted 45 months? I sure hpoe that isn't typical. I presume it was replaced at no cost to you under warranty? Sadly that won't be available to me. Thanks again for your good wishes.

LeafSpy gives two stats, Health ("Hx") and State Of Health ("SOH") that are generally the best indicators of remaining capacity. The SOH usually corresponds almost exactly with the percentage of original capacity remaining.

neville said:

ahagge, I see your Leaf is an older one (also 2011?) and its battery only lasted 45 months? I sure hpoe that isn't typical. I presume it was replaced at no cost to you under warranty? Sadly that won't be available to me. Thanks again for your good wishes.

Click to expand...

You are correct - 42 months and replaced under warranty. As for "typical", it depends greatly on your location (I'm near Los Angeles, which has summers with multiple-days of 40+°C temps). If you read the tales of woe on these forums, there are some from Arizona who lost 4 capacity bars inside of 36 months(!) and others in more northerly climes who only lost a couple of bars in 5+ years of ownership. From what I've read, temperature has been by far the biggest factor in capacity loss - much more than time or # of charges.

LeftieBiker's comments about the "Hx" and "SOH" readings in LEAFspy are accurate, though personally I prefer to use it's "AHr" reading (and compare the current to the 66 AHr that a new 2011 battery had) to measure degradation.

By the way, don't let my experience (or those in Arizona) sour you - if LEAFspy shows good numbers on a 5-year-old car, then it's likely been babied (and from a moderate climate), so it should be OK for at least another 3 years...unless you live in a hot area, of course.

If you want to go through the effort of posting the relevant #s from LEAFspy once you get them (Hx, SOH, AHr, # of L1/L2 charges & # of QC (quick charges) , and GIDS (iff you take the measurement when the battery is 100% charged)), some of us might be able provide advice on whether battery is in "good", "average", or "bad" shape.

ahagge said:

If you read the tales of woe on these forums, there are some from Arizona who lost 4 capacity bars inside of 36 months(!) and others in more northerly climes who only lost a couple of bars in 5+ years of ownership. From what I've read, temperature has been by far the biggest factor in capacity loss - much more than time or # of charges.

Click to expand...

There are people in milder northerly climes that have not lost a bar in 5+ years of ownership. In such climates, cycles matter more.

Japan varies from hot to cooler. A Leaf from a hot place might have a lot of capacity loss, but do consider both what you need, and how long a given Leaf might provide it where you like/work/travel, and of course the price.

North Island? Average temperature in warmest month? Charging in hot garage, cool garage, outside in shade? Daytime parking in shade or sun?

See the Leaf capacity model.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqhUVOciAXVhdEFId2ppVEViZmd0ckJxME95N0U4SUE&usp=sharing

And discussion of battery life at the Wiki:

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery_Capacity_Loss#Factors_Affecting_Battery_Capacity_Loss

Thank you everyone for your most recent posts.

Wow, what a lot of information and analysis of Nissan Leaf batteries is available! I'm learning heaps but I have a long way to go.

Hopefully one day I'll be able to contribute some data from New Zealand to put into the degradation models etc.

My impression so far is that the Gen 1 batteries were a disaster in hot climates, which has been fixed in the Gen 2 (year 2013+) battery, correct?

BTW does Gen2 battery = Lizard battery, or is lizard a special version for especially hot climates?

Does calendar (i.e. time) degradation apply to both Gen 1 and Gen2?

My impression so far is that the Gen 1 batteries were a disaster in hot climates, which has been fixed in the Gen 2 (year 2013+) battery, correct?

BTW does Gen2 battery = Lizard battery, or is lizard a special version for especially hot climates?

Does calendar (i.e. time) degradation apply to both Gen 1 and Gen2?

Click to expand...

The packs were improved beginning with the April 2013 built Leafs (so avoid early 2013 cars!). They resist heat better than the Gen 1 packs, but do still degrade in heat. Their resistance to time-related degradation seems to be even more of an improvement.

"Lizard Pack" refers to model year 2015 and up packs, although it isn't clear exactly how much better a 2015 pack is than a later 2013 or 2014 pack.

Thanks LeftieBiker

The bottom line is Buyer Beware if buying a 5-year-old Gen1 Leaf. Temperature degradation shouldn't be too much of an issue here in Wellington NZ, so if capacity loss hasn't already occurred I only need to consider calendar loss.

The low mileage could actually be a good thing because the car could've been stored for long periods of time with a lower SOC, which also reduces battery degradation. So I will carefully check that out when I get to see the car hopefully in about 10 days time.

Best case scenario: I could get 10 years more battery life (15 years total), but probably about 5 years is more likely, and worst case maybe 3 years.

BTW, did you retrofit the Leaf batteries to your Vectrix? Any problems with the change of Li chemistry from phosphate to manganese?

BTW, did you retrofit the Leaf batteries to your Vectrix? Any problems with the change of Li chemistry from phosphate to manganese?

Click to expand...

The previous/first owner of the bike did the conversion. The lithium firmware mine has works just fine with Leaf cells. The reported capacity is adjustable, so with my VX-1 "thinking" it has a 40AH pack instead of the 60-ish AH it really has, there is quite a bit of range both above and below the 17 bars on the gauge. I do wish my bike had a BMS, but I have balance leads I'll be trying out this Fall, and at least I don't have to worry about a dying BMS taking the pack with it! Leaf cell conversions seem to do a great job of resurrecting many a dead Vectrix. Typical range is about 60 miles in mixed riding, but someone is already fitting a Vectrix trike (converted, not factory) with cells for the 30kwh leaf pack, with 80AH available.