2011/12 SL with 10 bars vs. 2015 S... am I nuts?

Hi All, PaxEmilia here. It's about time to replace my old '97 Civic (OK, past time to replace it) and I really want to go EV for my next car. My friends have a Leaf and love it. I've been browsing what's available in my area. Buying a new SL or SV is more than I wanted to spend. I'm starting to think that for my car usage, I might be better off getting a 2011 or 2012 model with some battery degradation- I've seen some with 10 bars for sale for <$10,000- rather than a 2015 S, which some local dealerships are starting to offer deals on as the 2016 models are coming out. I am hoping somebody could give me a sanity check and point out things I might not have considered. Here's my situation:

-This would not be the only car for our household, so I'd have an ICE car available for stuff outside the EV range
-My typical daily travel is <15 miles, on city streets. If I'm running errands, it could get up to 20 mi. Wild crazy errands, maybe 30 mi. Normally I might take the highway for those but surface street routes are available.
-I live in Texas. It is hot. I do not have a garage. I will need A/C, and the battery's gonna degrade no matter what. (Entropy, man. It's a jerk.)
-At home I currently have one convenient 120V outlet outside. It is on the same circuit as 3-4 indoor outlets. Said outlets are used for small kitchen appliances (coffee grinder, food processor, etc.), an LED light strip, and in December, some strands of LED Christmas tree lights. I expect I'd charge overnight so it's really only the holiday season that might cause me to be drawing current elsewhere at the same time I'm charging.
-There are quick charge stations at a grocery store less than a mile from my house, and a couple other spots not too far from my usual routes.

So, I could get a car with a degraded battery and a quick charge port rather for much less than a brand-new car with a brand-new battery and no quick charge port. Also, the pre- 2013 models don't seem to have reports of the strange brake problems that have hapened with the later cars. So a likely scenario seems to me that I could get a pre-2013 Leaf with battery degradation on the cheap and get features that I couldn't get with a brand-new S model, have enough range to meet my needs for a couple years at least, shell out for a brand-new battery when the range loss becomes inconvenient, and still pay not too much more total than used Leafs with better batteries are going for now. (And depending on warranty dates and such I could have a shot at the free battery-replacement sweepstakes.)

Is this starry-eyed pie in the sky thinking? How well have the components besides the battery been holding up over time? Am I underestimating how fast the battery will continue to degrade, or how much of the charge will go to the A/C?

Oh, and I have an iPhone. Is there an app besides the full LeafSpy Pro that I could use to check the used vehicles I'm looking at?

I think you're perfectly sane, although I think buying an old Leaf with 10 or 11, or maybe even 12 bars is less than ideal. If I were you I'd look hard at all the used '11s and '12s you can find and try to find one that's already at the low end of 9 bars (and put in a call to Nissan to verify that the capacity warranty's not voided for any reason.) Sounds like you can suffer the limited range without issue for however long it takes to win the warranty "sweepstakes." Or you might also find an older Leaf that's already had its battery swapped and is now up for sale. Someone just sold such a Leaf on here for less than $9k!

There is another iOS app called LeafStat that does something similar to LeafSpy, but I'd strongly urge you to get LeafSpy. Pretty much the only reason LeafStat exists is that LeafSpy was only for android for a long time - it's not much cheaper than LeafSpy and much more limited. And either way you'll also need an OBD-to-wifi dongle.

It sounds like you are an IDEAL candidate for a used 2011/2012 Leaf. You have a similar driving situation to me, and I would LOVE to buy one for less than $9-10K. Since I already have one, I'll stick with it.

Spend quite a bit of time investigating, and yes, MAKE SURE you win the battery replacement lottery. Read every thread on MNL.com until you are sure you understand the warranty conditions (<5 yr and 60,000 mi IIRC). Then make sure the previous owner hasn't opted out of the lawsuit. Finally, confirm that the AHrs in the battery using LeafSpy. Compare to other's degradation values and rates. If all the stars align, pull the trigger and drive it fast, hard, quick charge, and keep it as hot as possible (without voiding the warranty conditions). Good luck. Even if you don't win the new battery lottery, you will still have a functional EV for 1/3 what us early adopters paid.

Thanks for the responses! OBD wifi dongle is already being shipped to me. As for putting in a call to Nissan to verify if a given vehicle is covered by the capacity warranty, would that be the customer support line or would I have to take it to a dealer?

And this is probably a dumb question, but the Tesla superchargers are incompatible with the LEAF, correct? It seems that way but I thought I'd see if someone on here knew better.

PaxEmilia said:

Thanks for the responses! OBD wifi dongle is already being shipped to me. As for putting in a call to Nissan to verify if a given vehicle is covered by the capacity warranty, would that be the customer support line or would I have to take it to a dealer?

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I'm not 100% sure, but I'd try the 877-NOGASEV line.

And this is probably a dumb question, but the Tesla superchargers are incompatible with the LEAF, correct? It seems that way but I thought I'd see if someone on here knew better.

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Indeed they are incompatible. In theory an adapter to CHAdeMO could be made, but even if you had the know how and the parts to make such a thing, you'd be stealing if you used it, since the Superchargers are a private network paid for in advance by Model S owners. Tesla could make and sell (for a lot of $$$) such a device themselves, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one...)

Don't worry about finding one with a QC port. Driving less than 40 miles a day, you'll be able to start every day with a full battery, even using a 120V outlet.

fooljoe said:

...Indeed they are incompatible. In theory an adapter to CHAdeMO could be made, but even if you had the know how and the parts to make such a thing, you'd be stealing if you used it, since the Superchargers are a private network paid for in advance by Model S owners. Tesla could make and sell (for a lot of $$$) such a device themselves, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one...)

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Tesla vets each car that plugs-in to a Supercharger by VIN, so even an adapter wouldn't allow another kind of car to work with its system.

Re: Superchargers, good to know. My question came partly from "could I void the warranty doing this" and partly from "if I expand my search from San Antonio to Austin/Houston, will I need to have it delivered?" With the latter in mind, I was looking and it seems like there are adapters or EVSEs that can plug in to a Nema 14-50, like at an RV park, but they can be pricey.

Re: QC, yeah, I wouldn't need it for my usual routine. But IF I get a used Leaf with a dwindling range it would be nice to have in a pinch. And if I end up getting the battery replaced it would probably get me a better resale value down the road, no? TBH, there are other features that are standard in the SL that I am more excited about. (Backup camera!)

I recently purchased a 2011 leaf with QC from CarMax in Houston for 11k (26k miles) in late Feb. When I called Nissan they told me to use the QC or let the battery down to get the battery replaced. Well about 2 weeks ago I drive the leaf until the battery was 100% drained and the next day It dropped one bar. I have 33,080 on it now and it's at the dealership getting a new battery installed I should be picking it up later this week.

mrringtone said:

I recently purchased a 2011 leaf with QC from CarMax in Houston for 11k (26k miles) in late Feb. When I called Nissan they told me to use the QC or let the battery down to get the battery replaced. Well about 2 weeks ago I drive the leaf until the battery was 100% drained and the next day It dropped one bar. I have 33,080 on it now and it's at the dealership getting a new battery installed I should be picking it up later this week.

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So, it was 3 bar loser when you got it and it became a 4 BL that next day?

Not the next day but it took about 6 months.

mrringtone, did you happen to use LeafSpy or some such to see how many AHrs the battery had when you bought it? I'm likewise looking at a 2011 Leaf SL from Carmax, also for 11 grand. From the pictures online it looks like it has 9 bars left, and according to the sales rep I talked to the warranty is up in March 2016. That sounds similar to the timeframe you lost your 9th bar in. I guess I'm curious how close you were to losing the 9th bar.

Edit:changed "Ahns" to "AHrs". What a weird typo.

mrringtone said:

I recently purchased a 2011 leaf with QC from CarMax in Houston for 11k (26k miles) in late Feb. When I called Nissan they told me to use the QC or let the battery down to get the battery replaced. Well about 2 weeks ago I drive the leaf until the battery was 100% drained and the next day It dropped one bar. I have 33,080 on it now and it's at the dealership getting a new battery installed I should be picking it up later this week.

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Very interesting. I doubt it's that simple, but I'm willing to give anything a try at this point, including cutting the head off a chicken and flinging the body around by its butchered neck.

mwalsh said:

mrringtone said:

I recently purchased a 2011 leaf with QC from CarMax in Houston for 11k (26k miles) in late Feb. When I called Nissan they told me to use the QC or let the battery down to get the battery replaced.

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I'm in. Made sure I got home just above Turtle tonight and then used the Climate Control to run down to the contacts closing (4 Gids). Wish me luck!

See you in Hell, bar 9!

I haven't used leaf spy since receiving the new battery. Go team go to get those bars down and achieve greatness with a new battery.

Guys, I just drove a car this last weekend. Its a 2012 SL with 20,731 miles on it. I plugged in leafSpy to check it out. Its my first car to plunk leaf spy onto, and I think I understand the data a bit. It was showing 10 bars on the dash.

LeafSpy reports:

AHr=49.35
SOH=75%
382.66v
1879 L1/L2s.

I called Nissan to ask about the car. It does have the capacity warranty in place. Its in service date was 6/18/2012.

What are the odds, in Houston TX of this ending up a four bar loser. It would have about 1.5 years to kill of the last bits. Is this an easy thing in this climate ?

I am looking at 3 or 4 options.

Buy a 2011/2012 and hope for a 4 bar loser.
Buy a 2013 SV + QC which everyone is hunting.
Maybe buy a 2014 SV+QC maybe not as popular, but probably not as smart.
Buy a new 2015 SV...and watch its value plummet as the 2016's appear.

merkurmaniac said:

Guys, I just drove a car this last weekend. Its a 2012 SL with 20,731 miles on it. I plugged in leafSpy to check it out. Its my first car to plunk leaf spy onto, and I think I understand the data a bit. It was showing 10 bars on the dash.

LeafSpy reports:

AHr=49.35
SOH=75%
382.66v
1879 L1/L2s.

I called Nissan to ask about the car. It does have the capacity warranty in place. Its in service date was 6/18/2012.

What are the odds, in Houston TX of this ending up a four bar loser. It would have about 1.5 years to kill of the last bits. Is this an easy thing in this climate ?

I am looking at 3 or 4 options.

Buy a 2011/2012 and hope for a 4 bar loser.
Buy a 2013 SV + QC which everyone is hunting.
Maybe buy a 2014 SV+QC maybe not as popular, but probably not as smart.
Buy a new 2015 SV...and watch its value plummet as the 2016's appear.

Click to expand...

I'm in Houston and recently bought a 2012 SL w/ one bar missing, QC (11k miles for $10800) hoping for an eventual 4 bar loser. I also sought out the 2012 based on reviews I read regarding air conditioner (my prior car's AC quit) because I kept reading about reliability issues in 2013+ model years. I love the 2012 over the newer models actually (and wanted a Japanese made car vs American).