LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

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Stoaty said:
NavyCuda said:
It's an ugly little car, no question...
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I am very fond of my little Leaf and happy with the way it looks, so I would say there is no question in your mind.
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+1.

Only thing that is unquestionable is that its looks are divisive.

I actually wish "classic" Leaf survives in some form - it may be as iconic as the old Beetle one day.
 
evnow said:
I actually wish "classic" Leaf survives in some form - it may be as iconic as the old Beetle one day.
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I've thought about this too. I could see Nissan going much more mainstream and then deciding somewhere around 2040 to bring back the "classic" look.

Every Thursday there is a classic car (mostly muscle cars) gathering and BBQ across the street from me. It's amusing to think of a gathering of Leafs in 25 years from now. A bunch of us early adopters, sitting around and eating kale cakes, showing off our aeromods, and bragging about how we once got 200km from a single charge in our 2011 Leafs. :lol:
 
+1 like the leaf today :D

it would be nice if the nose can be even shorter, like i-miev. i would have jumped for i-miev. . . but its 16kwh battery is too . . . :(
 
Phatcat73 said:
I don't believe any other EV manufacturer has passive cooling, as they did their homework.
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The Mitsubishi i-MiEV has passive cooling, as does the VW eGolf, which came out quite a bit after the LEAF. Neither of those cars has the widespread battery degradation issues the LEAF has.
 
aarond12 said:
Phatcat73 said:
I don't believe any other EV manufacturer has passive cooling, as they did their homework.
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The Mitsubishi i-MiEV has passive cooling, as does the VW eGolf, which came out quite a bit after the LEAF. Neither of those cars has the widespread battery degradation issues the LEAF has.
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Isn't the iMiev essentially a stretched version of an EV that Japan had well before the Leaf existed?
 
dgpcolorado said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
a glance at the plugshare map might make you smile but roughly 20% of the chademo's are down (mostly Nissan dealerships) but we are actually now starting to see 2 chargers at one location. Broken down is not nearly as bad (because you accommodate for that) as an overrun station which can never be predicted. having 2 plugs in one location makes a HUGE difference
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That was one of the interesting design elements of Tesla's Supercharger network: plenty of Superchargers at each site. Many early ones in remote locations were four per site but six to fourteen is more typical now. Recently I had my first experience with a broken Supercharger Station when a linked pair in Green River were down. That left only one pair for three cars. I left a bit earlier than I normally would have to give my spot to the third car (and had to drive more slowly to make the next Supercharger stop). But that's the first time I've encountered a broken Supercharger, or a queue, in forty visits to eighteen different stations.

Barring a time when Chademo or CCS chargers become as numerous as gas stations and pumps, it is hard to see them providing competition to the deliberately designed Supercharger network. As you well know, one difference between EVs and ICEVs is that the vast majority of fueling is done at home. That makes it much more difficult to make a DCFC network economically viable. That will be even more so when a typical EV, such as LEAF 2, has a 200 mile range. The only need for charging away from home/work would be for the occasional long road trip. Even in my case, with 70 mile grocery shopping trips (how many here at MNL do that?), I only charge my car to 60% most days. It is plenty for local driving needs, no charging away from home required. That is quite different from the current gas station business model we have used for most of the last century.
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SC is a great idea but a limitation on use would have cut the population at the chargers in half. I am all for unlimited use for vacations and trips but for daily use? no. there are simply too many charging because they don't want to pay the electric bill
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
SC is a great idea but a limitation on use would have cut the population at the chargers in half. I am all for unlimited use for vacations and trips but for daily use? no. there are simply too many charging because they don't want to pay the electric bill
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Depends on how you define "too many". The number of Tesla drivers who do this now is a speck compared to the total. And the vast majority of Supercharger Stations aren't located near population centers, so only a tiny subset of drivers are near enough to one to make regular local charging practical.

The idea that many Supercharger Stations are overcrowded is a myth. So far, just increasing the number of locations and chargers in the area of the handful of congested Supercharger Stations has been effective. Whether it will be a problem in the future as car numbers increase remains to be seen. For now, the system works quite well, hand-wringing by some notwithstanding.

It is also not well understood that the number of Superchargers does not have to increase in proportion to the number of cars. A 10X increase in cars does not require a 10X increase in Superchargers and Stations. This is because the vast majority of the network serves lightly traveled, but necessary, routes. That means that once the major routes are built out, new Superchargers and Stations can be concentrated in locations experiencing congestion rather than distributed across the entire network.

All this has to do with a deliberately designed network of DCFC stations, such as Tesla's Superchargers. It is difficult for me to see a random hodge-podge of Chademo/CCS chargers allowing long distance travel by LEAF 2 (or the Bolt) unless someone (who?) develops a planned network. Otherwise chargers will be concentrated in heavily populated areas or high traffic corridors because those are the only places that can conceivably prove viable from a revenue standpoint. You can knock the Supercharger network because a tiny number of locations are subject to local charging abuse. But the system continues to work well for its intended purpose: to enable long distance travel and allow Tesla cars to supplant ICEVs for both local and road trip driving.
 
dgpcolorado said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
SC is a great idea but a limitation on use would have cut the population at the chargers in half. I am all for unlimited use for vacations and trips but for daily use? no. there are simply too many charging because they don't want to pay the electric bill
Click to expand...
Depends on how you define "too many". The number of Tesla drivers who do this now is a speck compared to the total. And the vast majority of Supercharger Stations aren't located near population centers, so only a tiny subset of drivers are near enough to one to make regular local charging practical.

The idea that many Supercharger Stations are overcrowded is a myth. So far, just increasing the number of locations and chargers in the area of the handful of congested Supercharger Stations has been effective. Whether it will be a problem in the future as car numbers increase remains to be seen. For now, the system works quite well, hand-wringing by some notwithstanding.

It is also not well understood that the number of Superchargers does not have to increase in direct proportion to the number of cars. A 10X increase in cars does not require a 10X increase in Superchargers and Stations. This is because the vast majority of the network serves lightly traveled, but necessary, routes. That means that once the major routes are built out, new Superchargers and Stations can be concentrated in locations experiencing congestion rather than distributed across the entire network.

All this has to do with a deliberately designed network of DCFC stations, such as Tesla's Superchargers. It is difficult for me to see a random hodge-podge of Chademo/CCS chargers allowing long distance travel by LEAF 2 (or the Bolt) unless someone (who?) develops a planned network. Otherwise chargers will be concentrated in heavily populated areas or high traffic corridors because those are the only places that can conceivably prove viable from a revenue standpoint. You can knock the Supercharger network because a tiny number of locations are subject to local charging abuse. But the system continues to work well for its intended purpose: to enable long distance travel and allow Tesla cars to supplant ICEVs for both local and road trip driving.
Click to expand...
 
aarond12 said:
Phatcat73 said:
I don't believe any other EV manufacturer has passive cooling, as they did their homework.
Click to expand...
The Mitsubishi i-MiEV has passive cooling, as does the VW eGolf, which came out quite a bit after the LEAF. Neither of those cars has the widespread battery degradation issues the LEAF has.
Click to expand...

Wrong. The i-Miev has forced air cooling and the e-Golf reduces output power of certain cells that reach a certain temperature threshold.
 
Phatcat73 said:
Wrong. The i-Miev has forced air cooling and the e-Golf reduces output power of certain cells that reach a certain temperature threshold.
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Wrong. Not all i-MiEV models have forced-air cooling. The 2012 and earlier ES models did NOT have forced-air cooling, only passive cooling. Only the 2012 and earlier SE models (with CHAdeMO) and 2014+ models (which all have CHAdeMO). See the pattern? Mitsubishi found they only needed active cooling on CHAdeMO models due to the heat from fast charging.

And how am I wrong about the e-Golf? That's STILL non-active cooling. Just reducing output power of cells that get too hot is not active cooling. Even my Ryobi battery powered tools do that.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Isn't the iMiev essentially a stretched version of an EV that Japan had well before the Leaf existed?
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Yup. It's actually widened rather than stretched, only for the North American markets. (Are they trying to tell us we're fat?!) The i-MiEV started selling in Japan in 2010, before the LEAF.
 
aarond12 said:
Phatcat73 said:
Wrong. The i-Miev has forced air cooling and the e-Golf reduces output power of certain cells that reach a certain temperature threshold.
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Wrong. Not all i-MiEV models have forced-air cooling. The 2012 and earlier ES models did NOT have forced-air cooling, only passive cooling. Only the 2012 and earlier SE models (with CHAdeMO) and 2014+ models (which all have CHAdeMO). See the pattern? Mitsubishi found they only needed active cooling on CHAdeMO models due to the heat from fast charging.

And how am I wrong about the e-Golf? That's STILL non-active cooling. Just reducing output power of cells that get too hot is not active cooling. Even my Ryobi battery powered tools do that.
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It's good to see Mitsubishi adding active cooling within a model run. Whether e-golf is active or passive is up for interpretation. Comparing against other active cooling solutions, ideally liquid cooling, VW's approach is a best effort short cut, but still an active effort. It's doing more than nothing in minimizing heat degradation by including temp sensors in each cell, unlike the current Leaf which just cooks and relies on a draft to cool off the battery.
 
Phatcat73 said:
It's good to see Mitsubishi adding active cooling within a model run.
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A fan isn't the same thing as active cooling. A fan will slightly reduce the temperature difference between the battery and the outside air temperature. Think of AZ with 120F air temperatures.

Active cooling means mechanical cooling with some type of heat pump. In practice, because air is a poor way to move heat, it also usually means liquid water cooling.

The cost of active cooling is almost independent of the kWh size of the battery. So a small battery is almost always better passive cooled, and a huge battery is almost always better active cooled. Active cooling for your cell phone battery would be a joke, as would a utility scale battery without active cooling. A commuting range car, such as a Leaf, is right in the middle of that range, and isn't an easy decision. The NREL report finding that passive cooling for EVs is better in some parts of the country and active cooling is better in some parts of the country makes a lot of sense.

current Leaf which just cooks and relies on a draft to cool off the battery.
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Cooks? My battery rarely gets above 80F, and would likely average warmer with an active cooling system.
 
WetEV said:
A fan isn't the same thing as active cooling.
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To clarify, the i-MiEV does not do any cooling for the battery when it's running and driving. The cooling only happens when fast-charging the battery via CHAdeMO.

The way it cools is that it turns on its A/C and a baffle is flipped so the air goes into the top of the battery. It is technically active cooling, but it is only used while fast charging.
 
aarond12 said:
The way it cools is that it turns on its A/C and a baffle is flipped so the air goes into the top of the battery. It is technically active cooling, but it is only used while fast charging.
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And, for my selfish purposes (living in a climate where I don't mind if the battery always sits at ambient temperature), that's all the LEAF needs: enough cooling to make its QC practical.
 
WetEV said:
A fan isn't the same thing as active cooling. A fan will slightly reduce the temperature difference between the battery and the outside air temperature. Think of AZ with 120F air temperatures.
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A fan is one kind of active cooling. It isn't passive - so it is active.
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
https://www.facebook.com/NissanElectric/posts/10155094718307796:0

Does this mean the IDS concept IS Leaf 2?
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It seems very likely that the IDS Concept is the Leaf 2.0 concept.
 
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