Smidge204
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Re: Nissan LEAF Update from Andy Palmer

Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:50 am

OrientExpress wrote:Notice that in the Gen 2 module the cells are open to the pack. Perhaps that is for improved thermal dissipation?

It looks more like they went from a "tin can" style crimped lip seal to a simple clam-shell and tab system to hold the cells together. Less material + simplified manufacturing = lower cost + less weight. If there is any improvement in thermal properties it's probably more incidental than deliberate.
=Smidge=

Herm
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Re: Nissan LEAF Update from Andy Palmer

Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:01 am

I wish to congratulate edatoakrun for posting a very level message.. I was surprised.
Kudos to Nissan for clearing up the situation in Phoenix and other extreme places.. Since they have offered a wear warranty on a wear item perhaps they should step up and offer a thread depth warranty on the tires as well, at least 15k miles.. there have been many complaints on that issue here also.


edatoakrun wrote:
DesertDenizen wrote:... I face owning a 35k car that may become close to useless after only five years?...


Did you, or any other US LEAF buyer actually pay $35k, after incentives?

If Your LEAF is down to ~70% "new" range after five years, and that ~50 mile Summer freeway range is insufficient for your needs, you will need to decide whether to buy a new battery, or sell your LEAF to someone else, who does not find it "close to useless".

Two years after the LEAF's US introduction, Nissan has now given all of us a capacity warranty significantly reducing the risk of ownership we accepted when we bought our LEAFs. I doubt Nissan executives did this out of the goodness of their hearts. I expect that it was a simple cost/benefit business calculation. And if the cost of this warranty was expected to be excessive, I doubt Nissan would have done it.

IMO, it suggests a relatively low percentage of LEAFs are now expected to sustain capacity loss below "9 bars" or ~"70% capacity" during the duration of the capacity warranty, and/or the battery packs can be inexpensively restored to higher capacity, which I consider very good news.

If any LEAF owners can't accept the inherent and unavoidable uncertainty of future cost of ownership of any BEV, I'd suggest you just sell your LEAFs now and buy yourself an ICEV or hybrid, or lease another LEAF, at the current very low (MY 2012) net price.

Herm
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Re: Nissan LEAF Update from Andy Palmer

Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:13 am

OrientExpress wrote:One other observation that I wanted to make was about the Gen 2 battery that will be part of the 2013 cars. One detail that I noticed in the photos I took in Yokohama is that the modules that hold the cells are no longer closed containers like the Gen 1 batteries have, but rather are open on the sides. Perhaps that is a small improvement for better thermal management of individual cells?


The cells are packed tightly inside the case so that heat dissipates by direct module-to-module contact and eventually to the steel case itself.. there is no room for air circulation.

Perhaps Nissan can manufacture a "special" thinner cell with a reduced capacity (to be used for repairing packs in Phoenix) that would allow room for spacers and air to move around (with the addition of an internal fan). Making a modified cell is easy, and also cheaper since it consumes 30% less of the active materials.. another plus is that its lighter. Other manufacturers seem to be depending on air cooling for lithium-ion packs so it may be the low cost answer.

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TickTock
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Re: Nissan LEAF Update from Andy Palmer

Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:57 am

jspearman wrote:
DesertDenizen wrote:I admit I am surprised by the number of positive reactions to the announcement. I lost my first bar at only 6,771 miles, despite textbook charging and driving habits, and now I face owning a 35k car that may become close to useless after only five years? I am underwhelmed.


I don't think there's been a positive reaction from the hot-weather crowd yet. I really, really want to be positive. I was very positive about the Leaf for about 9 months, and I still love everything else about the car. I didn't start out with this disposition, but Nissan's response went from non-existent to guarded, and now it's just tepid, and I don't see this new warranty as improving the situation in the least for those of us with actual problems. The only way you would get to 8 bars in a less harsh environment is if you had a defective battery, in which case it's already covered, so I see this as little more than public relations BS.


Here's a hot-weather desert rat who is very happy about the announcement. Sure, I was hoping for 80% after 10 years as Perry said, but I never really believed that having seen how all my other batteries fare out here. 70%/5 years is a little disappointing, but it is at least something tangible that you can work with (far better than not knowing anything). Using Tony's range chart, and your daily driving habits it becomes simple to determine if a Leaf will work for you. Hopefully now there will be fewer people buying Leaf's for whom it won't be adequate and the negativity will diminish.

Am still holding my breath for the replacement cost, though, since I intend to drive my Leaf much further than 60000 miles.

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Stanton
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Re: Nissan LEAF Update from Andy Palmer

Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:03 am

Herm wrote:I wish to congratulate edatoakrun for posting a very level message.. I was surprised.
Kudos to Nissan for clearing up the situation in Phoenix and other extreme places.. Since they have offered a wear warranty on a wear item perhaps they should step up and offer a thread depth warranty on the tires as well, at least 15k miles.. there have been many complaints on that issue here also.


Give someone an inch and they want a mile! No wonder it took Nissan so long to do this: it's like a no-win situation (there are obviously people NOT happy with capacity warranty anyway). As far as tires go, I've had so many stock tires not outlast their warranty miles it's not even funny, but it doesn't seem to end up on the news. The owner demographic of this car is so highly educated, highly compensated, and highly litigious, it's a wonder this car has made it this far!
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EVDRIVER
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Re: Nissan LEAF Update from Andy Palmer

Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:11 am

Volusiano wrote:
Stoaty wrote:
gbarry42 wrote:I'm trying to figure out, though, how they'd "repair" a worn pack where all the cells have the same capacity loss. Changing out a few cells for new ones has very little effect, as the weaker cells determine the overall capacity.

Fortunately, that would be Nissan's problem, which means that they take at least some of the risk here.
I don't see that Nissan has to take any risk here. They'll have plenty of leased cars returned by the time any warranty claim may kick in. They simply need to take a battery pack from one of the leased cars that still have 9 bars or more as a replacement, and voila, done. The one returned with less than 9 bar will simple get recycled as originally planned.


Do you have any idea of the logistics and high cost of that proposed process not to mention the fact it would likely result in much wasted labor that would need to be replicated.

edatoakrun
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Re: Nissan LEAF Update from Andy Palmer

Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:11 am

Maybe I should add to my earlier post, that while the cost of this additional warranty coverage for all 2011-2013 LEAFs may not be very large, it is a cost that will have to be passed on to all future LEAF buyers (and perhaps the buyers of replacement batteries) if The LEAF is ever to be profitable to Nissan.

So, all future LEAF buyers who do not subject their cars to those factors, such as high temperature, high SOC over time, etc. that accelerate capacity loss, will neccessarilly be subsidizing those LEAF buyers who do.

You're welcome...

My LEAF experiences long periods with over 100 F temperatures in the Summer, and it's ~29 degrees outside, right now.

Any of you Arizona LEAF owners want to guarantee my battery capacity will be "70%" on this date in 2015, and pay the cost for my warranty?

edatoakrun wrote:...Two years after the LEAF's US introduction, Nissan has now given all of us a capacity warranty significantly reducing the risk of ownership we accepted when we bought our LEAFs. I doubt Nissan executives did this out of the goodness of their hearts. I expect that it was a simple cost/benefit business calculation. And if the cost of this warranty was expected to be excessive, I doubt Nissan would have done it.

IMO, it suggests a relatively low percentage of LEAFs are now expected to sustain capacity loss below "9 bars" or ~"70% capacity" during the duration of the capacity warranty, and/or the battery packs can be inexpensively restored to higher capacity, which I consider very good news.

If any LEAF owners can't accept the inherent and unavoidable uncertainty of future cost of ownership of any BEV, I'd suggest you just sell your LEAFs now and buy yourself an ICEV or hybrid, or lease another LEAF, at the current very low (MY 2012) net price.
no condition is permanent

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ksnogas2112
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Re: Nissan LEAF Update from Andy Palmer

Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:19 am

edatoakrun wrote:
DesertDenizen wrote:... I face owning a 35k car that may become close to useless after only five years?...


Did you, or any other US LEAF buyer actually pay $35k, after incentives?

Umm...yeah. Not everyone leases and given a recent post on the federal tax incentive I may only be getting $4-5k. Factor in loan interest, car taxes which had to be included in loan since I didnt' have 3k laying around. Before tax return my loan cost for the life of the loan was $44k. Welcome to the land of 0 incentives.
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edatoakrun
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Re: Nissan LEAF Update from Andy Palmer

Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:28 am

TickTock wrote:... Hopefully now there will be fewer people buying Leaf's for whom it won't be adequate and the negativity will diminish...


It seems to be that many of those who had unrealistic range expectations of their LEAFs are now moving to ICEVs, PHEVs Tesla S's or one of the "compliance " BEVs with longer range.

="TickTock"
...Am still holding my breath for the replacement cost, though, since I intend to drive my Leaf much further than 60000 miles.


Me too. but I think that in three or four years there may also be aftermarket battery options, and maybe other options from Nissan, beyond what Nissan plans to announce in (hopefully early) Spring.
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edatoakrun
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Re: Nissan LEAF Update from Andy Palmer

Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:38 am

ksnogas2112 wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
DesertDenizen wrote:... I face owning a 35k car that may become close to useless after only five years?...


Did you, or any other US LEAF buyer actually pay $35k, after incentives?

Umm...yeah. Not everyone leases and given a recent post on the federal tax incentive I may only be getting $4-5k. Factor in loan interest, car taxes which had to be included in loan since I didnt' have 3k laying around. Before tax return my loan cost for the life of the loan was $44k. Welcome to the land of 0 incentives.


Why did you not lease, which would have given you (almost) the entire $7500 tax credit?

You cannot consider the the loan costs as a factor in the price. Wherever you choose to borrow money, at whatever rate, is your own decision, and your own responsibility.
no condition is permanent

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