fotajoye
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:55 pm

cwerdna wrote:
fotajoye wrote:It appears the batteries are located within the same space in the various MY Leafs. In fact the 2018 MY uses the same chassis dimensions as the older Leafs. So, the question becomes: "Why won't Nissan do the necessary engineering to fit the higher density batteries in the older models and offer the upgrade?" I have yet to read a plausible answer to this question from Nissan, only their dealers quoting Nissan's restrictive battery policy. or user speculation.

viewtopic.php?p=491774#p491774

The most plausible is the engineering + homologation costs will be too high to justify given what price they would have to charge vs. the actual demand. Lots of people say they want _____ but will actually not follow through or will not follow through when they hear the cost. And, Nissan core business is selling cars, which they'd rather do than selling you multi-kilobuck battery upgrades.

Nissan is well aware (well, prior to knowing about the crap degradation on the 30 kWh packs) that some (many?) folks would rather pay for a 30 kWh pack than a 24, if they have to pay full price to replace their degraded old Leaf battery.

And given the 30 kWh pack is heavier, the max cargo + passenger weight allowed will likely have to go down on cars that weren't originally 30 kWh cars.

Does anyone have any information from Nissan as to why they won't or can't do the necessary engineering? There are batteries available now that make it possible to replace the older tech batteries and Nissan is no longer in the battery business. That changes the reasons completely.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:33 pm

Sorry but Nissan is in the business of selling new cars.

Extending the life of old used cars is the Aftermarket's vision statement and where are they? Chasing money. The reality is there is no money in upgrading LEAF packs.

Maybe when upgrades from 24 to 40 or 60 kwh is available there will be enough room for the aftermarket company to make money but by then, we very well might see 250 mile range EVs in the upper 20's with far advanced tech.

The reality is most old used cars become old not because they are worn out, they simply just aint as cool as new ones!
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cwerdna
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:46 pm

fotajoye wrote:Does anyone have any information from Nissan as to why they won't or can't do the necessary engineering?

If you looked at one of the links I cited, it led to viewtopic.php?p=440923#p440923:
cwerdna wrote:https://transportevolved.com/2015/10/19/first-drive-report-2016-euro-spec-nissan-leaf-like-the-old-leaf-but-with-more-range-if-you-pay/ states:
Contrary to previous reports Nissan engineers told us during the launch event that the new 30kWh pack could, technically, be fitted to the previous generation of LEAF electric cars as the charging system, motor, controller, and suspension are all identical to the 2013 LEAF.

However, Nissan stated that each car would have to individually undergo homologation, an expensive and time consuming process that it felt would not be worth the effort for owners when added to the cost of the new battery pack. As a consequence, no upgrade path is being offered right now.

I'd imagine that they would also at least need do several crash on tests (e.g. frontal, side, frontal w/unbelted dummies, etc.) '11 or '12 Leafs w/such an upgrade as part of the homologation process, as well, to certify they still meet NHTSA/FMVSS requirements.

Back to weight rating, they'd probably have to include stickers like these on the modified cars: https://priuschat.com/threads/reduced-l ... ker.84309/. IIRC, I've seen recalls for cars that failed to include such stickers when required, even if it was for a very small # of pounds.

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johnlocke
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:12 pm

The only answer here is going to be from third party manufacturers who won't have to do the federal testing because they'll list it as a replacement part. There's a post in batteries and charging about someone who found a Chinese manufacturer to build batteries for a Leaf. Don't know if it ever got off the ground though. The biggest problem is reprogramming the car to accept the new battery not building the battery. Cost is going to be another problem. A $5000 battery even if it's 40KWH is a hard sell to go in a $5000 car. If a 5 year old Leaf was worth $20000 with a new 40KWH battery, then you would have something. My guess is that even with the new larger battery, it still wouldn't be worth more than $12000 - $13000.
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fotajoye
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:25 pm

johnlocke wrote:The only answer here is going to be from third party manufacturers who won't have to do the federal testing because they'll list it as a replacement part. There's a post in batteries and charging about someone who found a Chinese manufacturer to build batteries for a Leaf. Don't know if it ever got off the ground though. The biggest problem is reprogramming the car to accept the new battery not building the battery. Cost is going to be another problem. A $5000 battery even if it's 40KWH is a hard sell to go in a $5000 car. If a 5 year old Leaf was worth $20000 with a new 40KWH battery, then you would have something. My guess is that even with the new larger battery, it still wouldn't be worth more than $12000 - $13000.


Too bad it turned out this way because there's a lot of life left in a Leaf after the battery depletes.

Those of us who own our cars have the option of replacing the battery and driving the car; and, from a cost standpoint, that makes sense. It would make even more sense if the Chinese, or anyone, could provide a long- range replacement battery at a reasonable price. I hate to buy from Nissan now that I better understand their policies.

cwerdna
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:07 pm

fotajoye wrote:It would make even more sense if the Chinese, or anyone, could provide a long- range replacement battery at a reasonable price. I hate to buy from Nissan now that I better understand their policies.

The Chinese have bought/are buying AESC: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... any-report.

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SageBrush
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:18 pm

If Nissan was being honest they would put the programming and electronics in the public domain so that a 3rd party could sell reasonably priced battery and installation. As it is, all we have are a bunch of lame excuses that amount to a big 'F you' from Nissan.
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fotajoye
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:05 pm

SageBrush wrote:If Nissan was being honest they would put the programming and electronics in the public domain so that a 3rd party could sell reasonably priced battery and installation. As it is, all we have are a bunch of lame excuses that amount to a big 'F you' from Nissan.


It would be great if the car makers operated that way; but, the only way they will share their IP, including software, is if the Government requires it by law or they enter into a Join venture with another company. Massachusetts for example has a law that requires car companies share repair data. But, It appears that reverse engineering is the only process available to most of us.

Tesla is an exception and shares their patents; but, I'm not sure they share their software. There are situations where Tesla will not "activate" a car which raises another question about who owns the software when you buy a car. Or, for that matter' Who Owns The Car? Hopefully someone will take this question to court.

I'm afraid when it comes to replacement batteries and dealing with Nissan, it's 'take it or leave it' at this point.

cwerdna
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:11 pm

fotajoye wrote:Massachusetts for example has a law that requires car companies share repair data. But, It appears that reverse engineering is the only process available to most of us.

Tesla is an exception and shares their patents; but, I'm not sure they share their software.

Tesla is not particularly forthcoming on providing any info either.

To confirm something I recalled, I just visited https://service.teslamotors.com/ and tried registering. The only state for which you can register for "General Access (Personal or Business)" is Massachusetts. (You can find more chatter on this by Googling for site:teslamotorsclub.com massachusetts service manuals.)

I'm not aware of any major US or Japanese automaker which is THAT restrictive on who can buy or buy access to service manuals, at least on their mass market vehicles.
SageBrush wrote:If Nissan was being honest they would put the programming and electronics in the public domain so that a 3rd party could sell reasonably priced battery and installation.

What major automaker that sells in the US provides this?

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SageBrush
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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:12 pm

cwerdna wrote:
SageBrush wrote:If Nissan was being honest they would put the programming and electronics in the public domain so that a 3rd party could sell reasonably priced battery and installation.

What major automaker that sells in the US provides this?

Specific to Nissan, since they ignore a cohort of owners floundering with a crap battery.
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Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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