DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:04 am

Didn't read the article but guessing methodology was flawed. It is rare that I have "good" weather to test these types of things but this Winter has been very convenient and even very cold (for me anyway) of mid teens is showing no more than a 25% drop in range (from my higher than normal Summer average) and that includes blasting heat from start to finish on my morning commute. (I do wear shorts and t-shirt to work EVERY day)

What should be told is that road conditions play a much bigger part in range loss. Snow, rain, etc. is a MUCH bigger issue than mere cold weather.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:09 am

golfcart wrote:
SageBrush wrote:

AAA did not test winter range, it tested short drive winter efficiency by drivers who reheat the cabin every trip.


How far off do you think that is from a typical commuters behavior? The average American commute is about 25 minutes and I suspect most people hop in the car and blast the heat until the cabin warms up.


That is EXACTLY what I do but my commute is 16-18 mins and 11.9 to 12.2 miles. With temps in mid teens, seeing "almost" a 25% drop in range. Nowhere near 40%...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EatsShootsandLeafs
Posts: 595
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:59 am
Delivery Date: 24 Aug 2012

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:11 am

SageBrush wrote:Testing a modern EV as if it is a degraded 24 kWh LEAF makes this "study" FUD
Using cabin heating in an EV instead of seat heating makes the driver a fool.
This view is not doing any EV adoption desires any favors.

I thought it was complete nonsense when i bought my leaf years back and still do that the "proper" way to drive an EV is to compromise with heavy gloves and a hat as if you're in some hoopty with non-functioning heating.

Using cabin heat is something we've been doing for a century and will continue to do so. No amount of seat heating or steering wheel heating is going to stop people's desire to be in a 72 F cabin, whether it's 40 outside or -20. And if the EV says this is unrealistic, they'll stick with their ICE.
golfcart wrote:And if someone buys a used Leaf, Soul, Focus, or i3 EV expecting 80 miles of range, commutes around 40 miles daily using the heat like they would any other car, and is shocked to find that they can barely make it home in the winter they are fools...


Nothing new. I read this same view on these forums a good seven years ago. I refused to partake in such shenanigans and when it became apparent that my EV could not deliver the experience I had grown up with (quite literally), it got the boot. I fully expect I'll go back to an EV in the nearish future, but I will assume its stated range is, in the winter, 50% of claimed and be sure that such a figure works for me.
SageBrush wrote:This is not complicated: Even the EPA realizes that a range test should be continuous driving and not multiple cold soaks.

Other than a few min of high MPG consumption while an ICE warms up a cold soak doesn't bother it because it has infinite cabin heat, so there is no need to do multiple short trips.

Yes, in theory a 250 range EV could do better than 125 in super cold temps if it does it as a single trip. But if you're doing multiple trips throughout the day, and they all include heating the cabin (the horror!), range is going to get smashed.

powersurge
Posts: 1325
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:24 am

I am tired of seeing mainstream TV and print reports about EVs that "they are not as good as ICE"..

They cannot tell us that a little cold can almost cut range in half... Only if the reporter blasted the heat and tore down the interstate doing 80...

I did not read the article but I will puke if I hear one more report of "Range ANXIETY".... Sounds like a Mel Brooks movie..

golfcart
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:08 am
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:10 pm

EatsShootsandLeafs wrote:
SageBrush wrote:This is not complicated: Even the EPA realizes that a range test should be continuous driving and not multiple cold soaks.

Other than a few min of high MPG consumption while an ICE warms up a cold soak doesn't bother it because it has infinite cabin heat, so there is no need to do multiple short trips.

Yes, in theory a 250 range EV could do better than 125 in super cold temps if it does it as a single trip. But if you're doing multiple trips throughout the day, and they all include heating the cabin (the horror!), range is going to get smashed.


This is my point. Most people drive to work just far enough to get the cabin warm then park it until it is cold again. Then go to lunch then let the car sit until it's cold. Then go back to work, then let the car sit until it's cold. Then drive home and let the car sit until it is cold. I never said or implied that this study was 100% accurate and should replace any EPA range tests, I just said that it might not be that far off from a typical commuters experience and is a useful exercise that merits discussion.

Sage is smart enough to understand this but is a little too snarky to just acknowledge the point and move on.
Last edited by golfcart on Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2015 S with Charge Package

golfcart
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:08 am
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:14 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
That is EXACTLY what I do but my commute is 16-18 mins and 11.9 to 12.2 miles. With temps in mid teens, seeing "almost" a 25% drop in range. Nowhere near 40%...


If you had read the .pdf document Sage posted you would see that at 20 F the Leaf saw a roughly 30% reduction in range (fig 51). It says it was a 2018 Leaf but I could not find which model or whether it has the cold weather package in the document so that is a big unknown. A reduction of 25% (like you see) is not quite 30% but it isn't that far off. I see a reduction of about 30% if I use the heat but I don't have the heat pump on my 2015 S so maybe that isn't unexpected.

The 40% figure was an average from all of the cars in the study mostly driven by the high values for the Bolt and I3.
2015 S with Charge Package

Titanium48
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:33 am
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2019
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:58 pm

I've only had my Leaf for a couple of weeks, but I have found a huge difference between near-freezing weather and real cold. Close to freezing, the heat pump requires about 500 W to maintain a comfortable temperature and keep the windows clear, and except at very high SOC regen will take care of almost all of the braking. At -25°C, the heat pump is useless and it takes 3 kW to keep the windows clear, and regen is almost non-existant until you are down to 50%, and even then it is mediocre.

Near 0°C, I drove 80 km and went from 90% to 35% SOC. At -25°C, a 32 km trip at slower speed took the car from 98% to 48%. 40% range loss doesn't sound too far off. I was expecting this, and it is part of the reason I bought a 2016 instead of a 2012-2014 that was down a bar or two for less than half of the price.

SageBrush
Posts: 4098
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:59 pm

golfcart wrote:Sage is smart enough to understand this but is a little too snarky to just acknowledge the point and move on.

I don't dispute your scenario at all -- I completely agree that it could happen to people who have low battery capacity EVs and have not learned how to optimize heating use in an EV. My point is that a RANGE test is different than a drive around town in the winter with multiple cold soaks test.

Did you read the test method ? Is that how you road trip ?
Last edited by SageBrush on Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
Posts: 4098
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:03 pm

Titanium48 wrote:IAt -25°C, the heat pump is useless and it takes 3 kW to keep the windows clear

Good information, thanks.
So about 30 Wh/km. That is about a 20% penalty,
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

golfcart
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:08 am
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:24 pm

SageBrush wrote:
golfcart wrote:Sage is smart enough to understand this but is a little too snarky to just acknowledge the point and move on.

I don't dispute your scenario at all -- I completely agree that it could happen to people who have not learned how to optimize heating use in an EV. My point is that a RANGE test is different than a drive around town in the winter with multiple cold soaks test.

Did you read the test method ? Is that how you road trip ?


I don't road trip in my Leaf. I commute, run errands, and cart my kid around. My car rarely does more than 30 miles at one time and the cabin generally cools before I get back in and start driving again for my winter driving. Even with the PHEV we go more than 50 miles straight about 4x a year.

If you want to define range specifically as how far a car can go in one continuous use before needing to be recharged then I get your point. My point is that you are choosing a rare scenario for most drivers. I would wager that most folks drive more like what I am describing on 90% of days. Given that fact, I think this study is useful if given the proper context.
2015 S with Charge Package

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