Not getting supposed range at all

I am a former Prius owner. So I understand how you have to drive differently for more efficiency. But I see everyone's posts about highway driving with air conditioning and still getting the EPA mileage and I wonder….what am i doing wrong? Or do I have a lemon? I am not the paranoid type, so the "lemon" idea is not my go to. But I can drive like a granny on backroads, or on the freeway, with air, without air, I still miss the mark by about 20 miles at least.

the first day was a freaking nightmare. the car was screaming for a charge after going 40 miles as opposed to the indicated 80 I started with.

So, what am I missing? Or have others experienced the same?

Please answer http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11591&p=275421#p275421 in this thread. Also forget the stupid GOM.

The most likely causes of short range for a former Prius driver are going 65+MPH, and/or accelerating briskly and frequently in stop and go driving in Normal mode. I'm assuming you aren't blasting the heater in this weather...

Grab leafspy app, an OBDII adapter, and a phone and figure out your miles per kWh. Let the phone tell you range remaining at that efficiency and don't stop driving until it says you have less than 10 miles remaining.

If you don't mind a stiff ride pump your tires up to sidewall max.

Keep in mind the weight ratio is closer to even on the Leaf so you should have nearly the same pressure front to rear.

Door says 36/36, you should try 42/42 or higher.

Be very sure you set the pressure at the coldest part of the day. You want to be sure your PSI doesn't drop below your set point if you drive late at night or early in the morning. Don't worry about the max PSI they see as you drive, just be sure the min PSI they see is what you set.

I'm not on the OEM tires so I'm running 51/51 (I actually run the back tires .25 to .5 PSI lower than the front but if you don't have a super accurate gauge just aim for even). On a hot summer day my tires get up to the mid 50s but they drop back down when I park.

another advantage of leafspy is PSI warnings on the tires. You can set them as high as you want and get a warning as you are driving. I never have to check my tire pressure from outside the car anymore. I have my phone set to alarm if the PSI goes below 49.

Don't let a low battery warning scare you if you can calculate the trip and the math says you'll make it.

I've never hit turtle but I hit LBW all the time. I even hit VLBW occasionally.

calimero3d said:

highway driving

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This phrase means MANY different things to MANY different people.. ;-)
(Not just in the EV world either..)

I drive almost all highway on my commute..
And, if I drove the speed limit, I could get close to 75 miles or so (2012 model) even with AC.
But, that would be down to turtle..

As is, my average on the highway is closer to 60 MPH because there's too much 1 lane highway and I don't want to slow people down too much.. At that average (with some in in town speeds around home and work), I can get 60 miles or so to LBW. AC included. Sometimes, if it's busy, I'm doing 65. I hit LBW earlier and sometimes VLBW pulling in to the charger/home at that speed, or when I run the heater in colder weather. Much more likely to hit VLBW with the heater...
(My commute is just over 60 miles each way..)

Initial things to remember, as pointed out above, slower is better. ;-)
Also, don't be afraid of LBW... You have a fair amount of miles left..

What state is your battery in?
How many capacity bars do you have? (note: there are 2 sets of bars on the right; capacity are the FAR right ones)
I still have (for a bit anyway) 12 bars. I'm about 90%, so another 5+% before I lose a bar...
But if you are down 2 or 3 bars, that can take a chunk off of your range..

desiv

Let's see if the OP comes back w/answers to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11591&p=275421#p275421 before people spend much more time and effort in typing responses.

I got very tired of typing responses, asking questions, making guesses, etc. from complainers for "poor mileage" on Priuses who would provide scant or no details, often to never return. I just stopped responding until I saw answers to http://priuschat.com/threads/fuel-economy-complaints-queries-please-copy-paste-answer-these-questions-esp-if-youre-new.77074/.

Sometimes, the complainers would respond but we'd keep needing to ask more questions. So, there was lots of back and forth and more people jumping in asking questions, making guesses, etc. Overall, not very productive, IMHO.

OK everyone, thanks to those who have tried to be helpful. Clearly you remember similar experiences.

CWERDNA - here are the answers to the questions you thought I should consider. I appreciate you may be a "gold member" and apologize if my post sounds like a complaint. I am trying to learn what to expect in reality vs. what all the various meters seem to indicate. Clearly there is a bit of discrepancy out there and it is not all roses as some would indicate, as I suspected. Again, not complaining, just want to understand which measurements are reliable. I had answered most in my first post, but just for the sake of being complete and, hopefully, convincing you I am not the moron you assume I am…..

- Where are you? - ALEXANDRIA, VA
- Where are you traveling to? Via what route? - TO THE PLACES I GO -REALLY? WITHIN 10 MILES OF HOME. I ASKED MY QUESTION NOT BASED ON ONE TRIP, BUT A MONTH OF OWNERSHIP.

If unwilling to answer the above, you'll need to tell us the distances and whether there's any net elevation change (Google Earth can help you with that. See http://priuschat.com/forums/freds-house ... oints.html.). - HOW MUCH ARE YOU JUST TRYING TO SAY NOBODY KNOWS WHAT TO EXPECT REALLY?
- How fast are you driving? What % is city vs. highway? MOSTLY CITY, ABOUT 30% HIGHWAY (LESS THAN 10 MILES). AND AT 55-60MPH, NOT 65+ AS ASSUMED BY ANOTHER PERSON POSTING.
- What is your miles/kWh reading on the dash? (on the black and white display) Is it reset for every trip? If not, please do so. CUMULATIVE, 3.9
- How full are you charging to? (for '13+ Leafs, list the % state of charge value) -50-100%. USUALLY THE LATTER.
- How are you "determining" your range? Examples: driving down to some value on the GOM (guess-o-meter aka virtually worthless - I"distance to empty" display), driving down to a certain # of "fuel bars", driving to LBW (Low Battery Warning), VLBW (Very Low Battery Warning) or turtle, driving down to a certain # of gids, driving down to a certain % state of charge (SoC) value ('13+ Leaf only) - I RESET THE TRIP ODOMETER EACH TIME AND MEASURE IT AGAINST THE GOM - WHICH I AM NOW GUESSING TO BE A FAIR ASSESSMENT OF THE VALUE OF THIS METER, VS. WHAT OTHERS HAVE ADVISED ABOUT IGNORING IT - BUT I USUALLY DON'T LET IT GO TO LBW, JUST BEOFRE. WITH 2 BARS LEFT. SO IF THE GOM IS NOT AN ACCURATE INDICATION OF WHAT I SHOULD EXPECT AFETER I CHARGE UP, WHAT IS?
- How many temperature bars (left side) are shown at the start of the drive and during? - IT IS IN THE MID -RANGE (OPTIMAL BY LETTER OF THE MANUL). THE CAR IS PARKED IN A GARAGE OVERNIGHT.
- What are your cold tire pressures? S ST BY DEALER, BEING, AGAIN, IT IS ONLY A MONTH OLD. CAN I NOT ASSUEM THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING
- Can this experience be reliably repeated? YES, AND HAS BEEN.
- After how many months of ownership did you first experience the range loss? FROM DAY ONE, AS STATED.
- Outside air temps when this is happening? BETWEEN 70-90 DEGREES, FAHRENHEIT FOR THOSE WHO MIGHT ASK.
- How are you using the heater/AC system? COMBINATION OF BOTH YES AND NO, AC CLEARLY, NOT HEAT.
- When cold, are you using the heated seats and steering wheel? NO
- Did you buy the vehicle new or used and when? (month and year is enough) What model year is it? NEW, 2015, I STAED THAT.
- How many capacity bars have you lost? They're the thin bars on the very right of wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss. That one shows 3 capacity bars lost. NONE.
- Any changes to car from stock (different tires, bike rack, Texas cattle horns, roof rack, flags, etc)? NONE
- (If you have a gid meter) Gid count at 100% charge? Date and outside temp when taken? A WHAT?

Thank you all for the quick and thorough feedback.

Thank you for returning and answering the questions. I'm only a "gold member" because I paid for that level of membership.

Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

calimero3d said:

- HOW MUCH ARE YOU JUST TRYING TO SAY NOBODY KNOWS WHAT TO EXPECT REALLY?

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No... I'm just saying that some people have had their expectations set incorrectly (e.g. "100 miles") due to crazy garbage like the below:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13264
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11867

Before the '13 Leaf's range was announced, the EPA numbers were 73 miles ('13 is 75), and I asked people (during the "100 mile" crazy garbage) the question at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11201.

What do YOU expect for range? Your post is titled "Not getting supposed range at all"... what is the "supposed" value?

calimero3d said:

- How fast are you driving? What % is city vs. highway? MOSTLY CITY, ABOUT 30% HIGHWAY (LESS THAN 10 MILES). AND AT 55-60MPH, NOT 65+ AS ASSUMED BY ANOTHER PERSON POSTING.

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We had no idea since we had no idea of your location. If you go 55-60 mph on the highway (when it's moving) in the LA area, you'll practically get run over. Going 70+ mph in a 55 mph zone in the middle lane is often just "keeping up" w/the flow of traffic there. :roll:

calimero3d said:

- How are you "determining" your range? Examples: driving down to some value on the GOM (guess-o-meter aka virtually worthless - I"distance to empty" display), driving down to a certain # of "fuel bars", driving to LBW (Low Battery Warning), VLBW (Very Low Battery Warning) or turtle, driving down to a certain # of gids, driving down to a certain % state of charge (SoC) value ('13+ Leaf only) - I RESET THE TRIP ODOMETER EACH TIME AND MEASURE IT AGAINST THE GOM - WHICH I AM NOW GUESSING TO BE A FAIR ASSESSMENT OF THE VALUE OF THIS METER, VS. WHAT OTHERS HAVE ADVISED ABOUT IGNORING IT - BUT I USUALLY DON'T LET IT GO TO LBW, JUST BEOFRE. WITH 2 BARS LEFT. SO IF THE GOM IS NOT AN ACCURATE INDICATION OF WHAT I SHOULD EXPECT AFETER I CHARGE UP, WHAT IS?

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As we said, the GOM is crap. It's virtually worthless. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=389312#p389312 is an example of why, besides the GOM values being all over the place at full charge. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=12899 has some pretty comical values.

W/o other instrumentation, I'd go by starting and ending % state of charging on the dash display. Even if you let it go to LBW, that sounds at 17-18% on a new battery, meaning you're leaving ~17 to 18% of capacity unused. (I started a thread about LBW and VLBW thresholds at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=17895.)

Range tests aren't done until LBW, but rather until the car's dead.

Tony Williams did a 100 kmh ground speed range test on a new '13 Leaf S (http://insideevs.com/real-world-test-2013-nissan-leaf-range-vs-2012-nissan-leaf-range/) and called the test complete at ~77.6 miles, when VLBW came up.

http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2011/long-term-road-test/2011-nissan-leaf-driving-it-to-the-bitter-end.html did 132.0 miles exactly at 35 mph.

The record holder on a charge at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7022 is 186.4 miles.

If you want to ride around near the bottom, you're best off getting something like Leaf Spy (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14285). Start with http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14284 to make sure your setup works. If you don't have an Android device or don't want to spend $40 on a compatible one, there's an iOS version: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=18917.

Please look over the range chart at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293. (Assuming no degradation yet) Your range will be influenced totally by power consumption. And, assuming level ground, no winds and no HVAC usage, that's influenced by speed. If you did 35 mph, your average should be 6.3 miles/kWh and you should be able to achieve 132 miles until dead. If you instead did 75 miles, your efficiency would probably be 3.0 miles/kWh and your range would probably be 62 miles until dead.

Oh yeah, on that chart, it's stated that the maximum range is achieved at 12 mph, exactly. :mrgreen:

Re: gids, see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=235079#p235079 and http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Glossary.

calimero3d said:

I RESET THE TRIP ODOMETER EACH TIME AND MEASURE IT AGAINST THE GOM - WHICH I AM NOW GUESSING TO BE A FAIR ASSESSMENT OF THE VALUE OF THIS METER, VS. WHAT OTHERS HAVE ADVISED ABOUT IGNORING IT - BUT I USUALLY DON'T LET IT GO TO LBW, JUST BEOFRE. WITH 2 BARS LEFT. SO IF THE GOM IS NOT AN ACCURATE INDICATION OF WHAT I SHOULD EXPECT AFTER I CHARGE UP, WHAT IS?

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Drive it to 0 bars left or to the VLBW (very low battery warning) whichever comes first if you really need the range and are used to your limits. I don't consider it low on charge until the dash GOM is flashing 5 miles or less and I never look at bars.

Until you get used to your limits get leafspy app, a phone (android or IOS), and a ODBII adapter (wifi for IOS, any decent one for android).

Leafspy will be your proper GOM replacing the less accurate one on the dash. Pay for the non free version and you can set the GOM style estimate to be miles to LBW, miles to VLBW, miles to a set percent remaining, or miles to a set amount of kWh remaining.

BTW, one rule of thumb you can use is to reset your miles/kWh meter and make a note of your starting % SoC. I keep a notebook in my car of some of my trips so I can get an idea of how much battery (% SoC) is used to go from point A to B.

Anyway, let's say you start with 100% SoC. If you arrive at your destination (calling this B) with under 50% SoC left, you might have trouble getting home, unless you KNOW there's a net elevation loss going home (and thus a gain getting to B). You can use Google Earth to figure that out. (That helped me figure out why I always got better fuel economy (mpg) in my Prius going in one direction down this expressway than the other direction. It was definitely NOT level.)

If you have less than 50% left, you might have to adjust your driving home (e.g. going slower, turning off HVAC, take a shorter or slower route) or charge along the way. Use Plugshare to find stations, ahead of time.

dhanson865 said:

Leafspy will be your proper GOM replacing the less accurate one on the dash.

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Yep.

LeafSpy can tell you how many miles you can go until until LBW, VBLW and 5% battery w/a given efficiency that you can adjust (e.g. 4.0 miles/kWh). That way, if you're running low and need to make it somewhere, you can adjust your driving to meet or exceed that value you set.

Example: if you need to make it 40 miles and want to reach that by VLBW w/the battery level you have now, then you want select VLBW at http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/?title=Leaf_Battery_Application#Screen_4, then press the +/- buttons in Leaf Spy until you come up up with efficiency needed (e.g. 4.2 miles/kWh). Then, reset one of your miles/kWh meters and drive so that you achieve at least 4.2 miles/kWh so that you make it to your destination.

The problem though is that if you don't know the route and whether there are upcoming hills or rising elevation, that can be tricky or impossible. The hill might be so steep that achieving 4.2 miles/kWh might be impossible. That's where better planning and Google Earth to plot elevation changes can help along w/useful tools like Plugshare, if you need to find a place to stop to charge.

BTW, the questions "Where are you traveling to? Via what route?" was suggested at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=267678#p267678.

Thanks again everyone.
Clearly there are a lot of tools I can use and things I need to learn about this new vehicle.
After nearly two months of owning this new car(It is a 2015, so no battery capacity issues) I am getting the hang of it. And will try to be more brave and push the car to VLB, as suggested. Just kinda freaks you out the first few times when all the lights come on, bells go off, a recorded voice warning comes on, etc.

You've given me lots of info and I appreciate it.

calimero3d said:

Thanks again everyone.
Clearly there are a lot of tools I can use and things I need to learn about this new vehicle.
After nearly two months of owning this new car(It is a 2015, so no battery capacity issues) I am getting the hang of it. And will try to be more brave and push the car to VLB, as suggested. Just kinda freaks you out the first few times when all the lights come on, bells go off, a recorded voice warning comes on, etc.

You've given me lots of info and I appreciate it.

Click to expand...

sorry if I didn't see it but I took a quick glance as the Q&A section you responded to and didn't see if you're driving in 'normal' or ECO mode; when we first picked up our '12 (just before Christmas; quite cold here in Chicago!) we drove it to O'Hare airport and back (total of 40 miles) and became a bit alarmed as we drove it in 'normal' (in 'D') with the heater blasting, etc. and saw only 20 miles of range left from a full charge; also assumed the dealer had the tire pressures correct, etc. --- we had also thought, well this just won't work (car also showed about a 2.9 miles/kWh as well) this was all when LEAF's just started to be sold in colder climates (no Cold Weather Package before ours was available) so lot's of things have changed since those days but through time we've all learned how to maximize our range -- in my own case, this works best for us (and perhaps many others):

-- set and recheck the tire pressures to at least 40 to 42 PSI
-- unless really needed, always drive in ECO mode
-- avoid long term highway speeds; especially in temp extremes
-- use heated steering wheel/seats in winter; use car heater at a minimum (those on '11's & '12's are less efficient, much better in a newer model like yours)
-- use AC minimally; less of a drag on range than heater but plan ahead for less range on really hot days
-- watch the average miles/kWh on GOM; if it starts dropping adjust driving behavior to converse range

Our LEAF is used as our work commuter (max 32 mile R/T, all 'burbs, very little 50+ MPH roads) as we have another car for long trips and picking up stuff that won't fit, etc. as well as extreme weather (below zero temps, lots of snow, excessive high temps, etc.) so even when it eventually starts losing some range due to battery degradation, it should still be fine --- that's still probably about 80 to 90% of what we need a car for so it works for us (for now). It's still our 'go to' car for at least 3 out of 4 seasons for weekend errands where we might drive as much as 100 miles or more (with a L2 charge at home in-between) but its rare we ever run down to VLB as we can pretty much predict our distance from home and now a few more public chargers are popping up which makes things that more flexible.

To attempt to summarize, briefly:

* You are driving economically. Not as economically as is possible, but not badly.

* You aren't driving too fast. We don't know that you aren't heavy-footed on the accelerator pedal, but your efficiency reading suggests not.

* It seems that your main problem is that you are ignoring about 15 miles of easily-usable range, by not going below the first battery warning. (It isn't reasonable to expect typical drivers to use the modest extra range below the VLBW. Who suggests that ICE drivers use that 'extra range' below/after the "E" and red warning light on the fuel gauge?)

* You may be driving with too little air in your tires, because Nissan is just plain wrong about the best inflation pressure for the tires provided on the Leaf. This may be worth a couple of miles.

* You may not be taking best advantage of Eco mode, which both reduces unintended and wasteful extra acceleration and lowers HVAC power consumption. On the other hand, if the HVAC is off and you can coast a lot, Normal mode is better for that.

If you expected 100 mile range, you can get that, but only by driving at roughly 45MPH or less. I'd say you didn't read the fine print there, but we all know that Nissan provided no such information to prospective Leaf buyers and lessees.

TIRE PRESSURE

On Friday, 9/18/15, we took our MY2013 in for the second annual bettery test. This dealer sells lots of Leafs and should know better, but when I picked it up the service guy gave me the test papers and told me the battery was in perfect health and they adjusted the tire pressure to 36psi all around. I did not waste my time trying to educate them that higher is better.

AT LEAST I got a free car wash out of them just in time for the National Drive Electric event on Saturday. By the way, we had a great time there here in San Diego and hope other locations went as well.

Once each month we go into our local Discount Tire to have them adjust all tires to 43psi. Now I need to stop by Discount tire and reset them to 43psi again.

Some techs will do 40psi if it's requested - the Toyota dealership will do that for the Prius. Don't expect them to get that close (43) to the maximum, though.

calimero3d said:

What are your cold tire pressures? S ST BY DEALER, BEING, AGAIN, IT IS ONLY A MONTH OLD. CAN I NOT ASSUEM THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING

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I picked up my leaf with 30 psi hot. I checked my cousins leaf it was about 32 hot.

When I worked at a dealer the techs always took the car out for a spirited drive before going into the shop to do the inspection, it was way quicker hence they made more money so they never ever adjusted tires cold. Also many techs might not read the specs for each model and just set to a 30 or 32 psi normal comfortable car range.

Even if you don`t want to drive at 44 psi I would recommend pumping them up to that just to see if it changes anything. It is probably the quickest and easiest thing you can do yourself to start to figure out if something is wrong.

Boosting tire inflation to 4 to 7 psi higher will net you more miles, however....
you will be riding the centre area of the tire (giving less rolling resistance ) at the price of rapidly unevenly wearing them out.
if you consider the cost of replacing the tires much earlier then need, because the centre will be bald , I think the marginal mileage gain is a wash. 215/55R17 depending on what you buy could easily cost 800 to 1200 dollars installed.
food for thought.

My LEAF tires wore flat across the tread at 42 PSI.

alftar said:

Boosting tire inflation to 4 to 7 psi higher will net you more miles, however....
you will be riding the centre area of the tire (giving less rolling resistance ) at the price of rapidly unevenly wearing them out.
if you consider the cost of replacing the tires much earlier then need, because the centre will be bald , I think the marginal mileage gain is a wash. 215/55R17 depending on what you buy could easily cost 800 to 1200 dollars installed.
food for thought.

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Driving a heavy Leaf with the tires inflated to two psi below the maximum rated cold pressure will do no such thing. It evens out the wear, and extends tire life, while improving both handling and range. It does make the ride slightly more harsh. Driving a Leaf with tires inflated to 36psi, OTOH, is a great way to get accelerated tire wear, poor handling, and, in the case of the Ecopias at least, possible sidewall failure in minor bumps against curbs. There are a lot of us with actual experience here. Did you inflate a Leaf's tires to 42psi, only to watch them tragically wear out on one side...?

alftar said:

Boosting tire inflation to 4 to 7 psi higher will net you more miles, however....
you will be riding the centre area of the tire (giving less rolling resistance ) at the price of rapidly unevenly wearing them out.
if you consider the cost of replacing the tires much earlier then need, because the centre will be bald , I think the marginal mileage gain is a wash. 215/55R17 depending on what you buy could easily cost 800 to 1200 dollars installed.
food for thought.

Click to expand...

I have found that higher inflation has helped my 2 Leaf's to wear the tires more evenly.