One of the range bars only has 1-2 miles on it

I bought a used Leaf a while ago (probably not such a good decision). I recently noticed that bar 10 on my range bars is much shorter than all the other bars. I only get about 1-2 miles on bar 10, before dropping to 9. Under similar conditions, the others are in the 7-8 mile range.
What is happening? Are some of my battery cells shorted out?

agunther said:

I bought a used Leaf a while ago (probably not such a good decision). I recently noticed that bar 10 on my range bars is much shorter than all the other bars. I only get about 1-2 miles on bar 10, before dropping to 9. Under similar conditions, the others are in the 7-8 mile range.
What is happening? Are some of my battery cells shorted out?

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I think you are very close to lose the 10th bar.

That is normal if you are only charging to 80% because the 10th charge bar is not "full" at 80 per cent. Try charging to 100% once and I think your 10th bar (11th and 12th also) will give you distance similar to the rest.

Gerry

GerryAZ said:

That is normal if you are only charging to 80% because the 10th charge bar is not "full" at 80 per cent. Try charging to 100% once and I think your 10th bar (11th and 12th also) will give you distance similar to the rest.

Gerry

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No I charged to 100% today. First two (12th and 11th were behaving normally)

Edy said:

I think you are very close to lose the 10th bar.

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That would be very strange, since I just lost the 11th bar.

It just happens to be bar 10. Coincidentally I also have a capacity of 10 bars, which gives some credence to Edy's answer, but I would still be surprised at the fast loss.

Do you know if your Leaf received the P3227 software update? My SOC bars exhibited erratic behavior after I lost a couple of capacity bars and got worse as I lost more capacity bars. I got the software update once I was down to 8 capacity bars and the car's instrumentation became much more stable and accurate.

Gerry

GerryAZ said:

Do you know if your Leaf received the P3227 software update? My SOC bars exhibited erratic behavior after I lost a couple of capacity bars and got worse as I lost more capacity bars. I got the software update once I was down to 8 capacity bars and the car's instrumentation became much more stable and accurate.

Gerry

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I don't know. Is there a way to check?

Andre

My 10th bar is also noticeably weaker than my other bars. Noticed it after I lost my first bar.

I always noticed this on my 2011 LEAF. The 10th *fuel* bar duration in miles is always less than the 12th and 11th bars. It was only about 3-4 miles, if that, compared to 5-6 miles for the 12th and 11th bars when my car was somewhat new. I did ask about this on the forum and a few others noticed the same (can't fine that thread)...

Now with 2 missing *capacity* bars, the 10th *fuel* bar seems to get even less, like 2-3 miles at most! While the other *fuel* bars are getting only 4 miles, and if I drive really efficiently, maybe 5 bars.

But I stopped looking at the fuel bars. I zero out the odometer at every 100% charge, so I know how far I've driven, given how much Kwh when I start out (using Leaf Spy Pro app).

I ordered a bluetooth OBD2 scanner that I plan to use with leaf spy. Maybe this will get to the bottom of it.
Overall, I am disappointed all around by the range of this "car", and this is from a guy who consistently wrestled much better than EPA from every car I have ever owned.
I hope that Teslas release of battery technology will result in some decent upgrades for the Leaf at some point, and that those will be affordable.

Ok, here are my results from Leaf Spy. Battery health isn't all that great, but it seems to have been treated ok (not many QC) and I don't see any shorted out cells. Since I am still new at this, I'd welcome comments.

For reference, our 2011 LEAF only has 20,500 miles on it, but capacity is down to 55.3Ah and Hx is already down to 69.5%.

Perhaps you have not yet had the P3227 firmware update done.

In any case, it appears your LEAF may eventually qualify for a warranty battery replacement. You need to lose the next two bars within the next year and a half.

I am not sure what Hx is !?
I am also not certain about the battery warranty. I need to check the delivery date of my vehicle, since I am not certain how old it is, but I think I will most likely not qualify (according to the ageing spreadsheet I found here).
I think if the cost of the replacement pack comes down, I might be ok with that option, although I find it very disappointing how quickly the range on these things drops.

agunther said:

I am not sure what Hx is !?

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No one is. There is some speculation that it is the fraction of remaining capacity times the fraction of remaining admittance (1/resistance) of the battery, expressed in percent. But the point is that my Hx value tracked my capacity until I got the P3227 update, at which point the reported capacity plummeted and the Hx value dropped to roughly twice as much below 100% as capacity.

agunther said:

I am also not certain about the battery warranty. I need to check the delivery date of my vehicle, since I am not certain how old it is, but I think I will most likely not qualify (according to the ageing spreadsheet I found here).

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Based on your VIN number, your LEAF was manufactured in early 2011 and likely was put into service around the middle of 2011. If you have not already gotten your P3227 update, I recommend that you do that now. Your capacity numbers may move around following the update and you need it done to claim the warranty. However, the capacity number first shoots UP and then takes a couple of months to settle.

Regarding the capacity spreadsheet, it assumes that cycling losses will be linear with miles driven and calendar losses will slow with time. The literature I have found and reported here indicate just the opposite is more likely: cycling losses will slow with miles and calendar losses will be linear with time. Since calendar losses are dominant, this difference affects the prediction made by the spreadsheet.

In my case, I have low miles and the actual losses are about 20% worse than what is predicted, which matches my expectation.

In any case, I think you will be very close to receiving a new warranty pack when the middle of 2016 comes around. Hopefully you will not just miss it. Keep driving!

agunther said:

I think if the cost of the replacement pack comes down, I might be ok with that option, although I find it very disappointing how quickly the range on these things drops.

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Me, too. I think I will not receive a warranty pack, but we will see.

I noticed this the other day. I went from 8 bars to 6 bars in about 2 miles of driving. First time it's done that. I was around 45 miles driven from ~95%.

RegGuheert said:

Me, too. I think I will not receive a warranty pack, but we will see.

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Wow. Interesting post. Is there an easy way to check for the update (online) or do I have to roll into a dealership?
Either way, I think it will be a throw away car. I have the benefit of using the carpool lane now for the higher depreciation of it. I am somewhat ok with that trade-off and I learned a lot what to look for in my next EV purchase.
Strangely, after all these years I haven't noticed much degradation in the battery of my macbook. Seems like Nissan needs to learn a few things.

agunther said:

RegGuheert said:

Me, too. I think I will not receive a warranty pack, but we will see.

Click to expand...

Wow. Interesting post. Is there an easy way to check for the update (online) or do I have to roll into a dealership?

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Unfortunately, this requires a trip to the dealership.

agunther said:

Either way, I think it will be a throw away car.

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Why? A 2011 LEAF in 2016 with a replaced battery should be immensely more valuable than one with the original battery. Note that the replacement battery is an upgraded version which should retain its original capacity longer.

If you do decide to throw yours away, please let me know!

agunther said:

I have the benefit of using the carpool lane now for the higher depreciation of it. I am somewhat ok with that trade-off and I learned a lot what to look for in my next EV purchase.

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Yes, I think we all have. Unfortunately, it may be difficult to know about battery life at the time of purchase. Hopefully the industry will grow up to the point where it can provide accurate information on this topic. The guidance Nissan gave on the original LEAF batteries was simply wrong.

agunther said:

Strangely, after all these years I haven't noticed much degradation in the battery of my macbook. Seems like Nissan needs to learn a few things.

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I'm noticing quite a bit of degradation on the iPad I'm using to type this message. It was purchased about the same time as the LEAF. There are a few differences I can think of that would affect the degradation of our batteries and our perceptions about that degradation:

- The LEAF directly reports the degradation of the battery while the iPad and MacBook do not.
- If the battery in the LEAF gets fully discharge, it takes much longer to recharge and it cannot be used while it is charging. In both cases, you just need to plug in when the battery gets discharged but the iBook is more likely to be near a plug when that happens. If it is not, it can be moved to a plug more easily.
- If the battery in your MacBook or my iPad runs out of charge, it is not as big of a deal (usually) as the battery in the LEAF running out of charge. As a result, we tend to be more tuned-in to changes in capacity in our LEAFs.
- The LEAF battery likely receives more cycling than the battery in the MacBook. However, the MacBook likely spends much more time at a high state-of-charge than the LEAF. My iPad, OTOH, likely receives slightly more cycling than the LEAF, although I would say they are quite similar in this regard.
- The charge rate on the LEAF is only about C/7 while the charge rate on the MacBook is about C/2. Quick-charge rate on the LEAF is about 2C.
- The discharge rate on the LEAF varies wildly as you drive between about 4C and charging at C. The discharge rate on the MacBook and iPad are fairly steady when on at between C/15 and C/5. This difference tends to make changes in battery resistance less of a factor for the MacBook and iPad, but slightly more noticeable in a LEAF driving on the highway.
- The battery chemistry for the LEAF was chosen because it provides very good safety and capacity. The battery chemistry for the MacBook and iPad also provides good capacity, but it retains capacity better in a hot environment than the LEAF chemistry.
- The replacement batteries for the LEAF now have an improved chemistry which will not degrade as quickly as the originals. How much better are they? We will have to wait for that answer.

The good news is that future versions of our LEAFs, our MacBooks and our iPads will (usually) have cheaper, better batteries in them.

RegGuheert said:

agunther said:

RegGuheert said:

Me, too. I think I will not receive a warranty pack, but we will see.

Click to expand...

Wow. Interesting post. Is there an easy way to check for the update (online) or do I have to roll into a dealership?

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, this requires a trip to the dealership.

agunther said:

Either way, I think it will be a throw away car.

Click to expand...

Why? A 2011 LEAF in 2016 with a replaced battery should be immensely more valuable than one with the original battery. Note that the replacement battery is an upgraded version which should retain its original capacity longer.

If you do decide to throw yours away, please let me know!

Click to expand...

Point is, I will not put $6k into a battery replacement for a 5 year old car, especially considering that I read recently that Teslas planned Gigafactory can produce Batteries at $100/kw (about $2.4k for a new leaf battery or more for a bigger one). At that point in time, we may have better choices than outfitting an old car with old battery technology.

RegGuheert said:

agunther said:

I have the benefit of using the carpool lane now for the higher depreciation of it. I am somewhat ok with that trade-off and I learned a lot what to look for in my next EV purchase.

Click to expand...

Yes, I think we all have. Unfortunately, it may be difficult to know about battery life at the time of purchase. Hopefully the industry will grow up to the point where it can provide accurate information on this topic. The guidance Nissan gave on the original LEAF batteries was simply wrong.

agunther said:

Strangely, after all these years I haven't noticed much degradation in the battery of my macbook. Seems like Nissan needs to learn a few things.

Click to expand...

I'm noticing quite a bit of degradation on the iPad I'm using to type this message. It was purchased about the same time as the LEAF. There are a few differences I can think of that would affect the degradation of our batteries and our perceptions about that degradation:

- The LEAF directly reports the degradation of the battery while the iPad and MacBook do not.
- If the battery in the LEAF gets fully discharge, it takes much longer to recharge and it cannot be used while it is charging. In both cases, you just need to plug in when the battery gets discharged but the iBook is more likely to be near a plug when that happens. If it is not, it can be moved to a plug more easily.
- If the battery in your MacBook or my iPad runs out of charge, it is not as big of a deal (usually) as the battery in the LEAF running out of charge. As a result, we tend to be more tuned-in to changes in capacity in our LEAFs.
- The LEAF battery likely receives more cycling than the battery in the MacBook. However, the MacBook likely spends much more time at a high state-of-charge than the LEAF. My iPad, OTOH, likely receives slightly more cycling than the LEAF, although I would say they are quite similar in this regard.
- The charge rate on the LEAF is only about C/7 while the charge rate on the MacBook is about C/2. Quick-charge rate on the LEAF is about 2C.
- The discharge rate on the LEAF varies wildly as you drive between about 4C and charging at C. The discharge rate on the MacBook and iPad are fairly steady when on at between C/15 and C/5. This difference tends to make changes in battery resistance less of a factor for the MacBook and iPad, but slightly more noticeable in a LEAF driving on the highway.
- The battery chemistry for the LEAF was chosen because it provides very good safety and capacity. The battery chemistry for the MacBook and iPad also provides good capacity, but it retains capacity better in a hot environment than the LEAF chemistry.
- The replacement batteries for the LEAF now have an improved chemistry which will not degrade as quickly as the originals. How much better are they? We will have to wait for that answer.

The good news is that future versions of our LEAFs, our MacBooks and our iPads will (usually) have cheaper, better batteries in them.

Click to expand...

Those are all good points, yet your iPad is still useful at half the capacity, whereas a leaf might not be. I am really looking forward to see how the BMW i3 with fuel cell technology will look like. If I can get my energy converted to hydrogen instead of electricity, then that might be a better and more viable choice, especially if there will be a network of fuel stations. It is just as clean, maybe even cleaner if you consider waste from battery cells.
Either way, as long as I can get the distance to work and back I am fine, then the thing has to go as it has outlived its usefulness. Not sure I will ever buy a battery.

Makes me wonder though what the update is good for. If all it does is change the way the Leaf displays stuff, then I don't really need it.
Why is everyone recommending this?

agunther said:

Makes me wonder though what the update is good for. If all it does is change the way the Leaf displays stuff, then I don't really need it.
Why is everyone recommending this?

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"Everyone" is NOT recommending the P3227 update. While the charge station compatibility improvements might be useful for some, the loss of regen, especially at cool battery temperatures (below 13ºC), is a really big deal for some of us. For those in the sunbelt or flatlands the loss of regen might not be a big deal. For those of us driving in mountains it is.

I regret having the update done. [I can't even use it to participate in Stoaty's research project because there is no model for my climate. Oh well.]

agunther said:

Point is, I will not put $6k into a battery replacement for a 5 year old car, especially considering that I read recently that Teslas planned Gigafactory can produce Batteries at $100/kw (about $2.4k for a new leaf battery or more for a bigger one). At that point in time, we may have better choices than outfitting an old car with old battery technology.

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As I mentioned, you may not have to buy a battery to restore the range. It may be provided under warranty. Regardless of whether or not you would replace the battery, it seems likely someone will.

agunther said:

Those are all good points, yet your iPad is still useful at half the capacity, whereas a leaf might not be.

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In fact, for may people, the LEAF is not useful with even full capacity. For others like me, it is still useful with half capacity.

agunther said:

I am really looking forward to see how the BMW i3 with fuel cell technology will look like. If I can get my energy converted to hydrogen instead of electricity, then that might be a better and more viable choice, especially if there will be a network of fuel stations.

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Not me. I'm not interested in paying significantly more and giving up fueling at home just to drive a car which requires either twice the electricity or fossil fuels to drive.

agunther said:

It is just as clean, maybe even cleaner if you consider waste from battery cells.

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Batteries which do not last are not green. But researchers are learning how to make small additions to the electrolyte to improve the life by up to 20X. The point is future EVs will certainly have cheaper, more durable batteries than the Gen I Nissan LEAF.

agunther said:

Either way, as long as I can get the distance to work and back I am fine, then the thing has to go as it has outlived its usefulness. Not sure I will ever buy a battery.

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I'm pretty sure I will buy another battery. $6000 dollars versus purchasing a new car makes the battery purchase attractive. For commuter use, I doubt that fuel-cell vehicles will ever cross below BEVs in terms of capital cost (including repairs) OR fueling cost. So they will cost more, period. And they will likely be more polluting to the environment.

agunther said:

Makes me wonder though what the update is good for. If all it does is change the way the Leaf displays stuff, then I don't really need it.

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The update is REQUIRED to take advantage of the battery capacity warranty since Nissan believes it more accurately reports battery capacity than the old version. If you try to get it right before your warranty expires, it will *boost* your capacity temporarily, even if it ultimately reports much lower capacity later.

agunther said:

Why is everyone recommending this?

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I don't know about others, but I am recommending it in your case since it may make the difference between receiving a free replacement battery at five years or having a "throw-away car".