Why is TickTock's efficiency steadily dropping?

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RegGuheert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
6,419
Location
Northern VA
TickTock has the best and longest detailed record of LEAF data that I know of. I was looking at his data yesterday and one thing that struck me was that his efficiency, from both the dash and the wall, has steadily dropped over the life of the vehicle. (That plot can be found second from the top in the above link.)

So I thought I would post to ask what are the main contributors of this drop. I can think of a few possibilities:

1) Driving style: Perhaps TickTock's driving efficiency has steadily dropped? I don't know how we could ever quantify that.
2) Battery electrical resistance: The resistance of the battery goes up as it ages. This effect will certainly lower the efficiency of the vehicle, but I haven't ever considered it to be something that could significantly effect efficiency. Let's run a few numbers to see:

Initial resistance: ~55 mohm
If you assume battery voltage to be 370V nominal and use a power level of 10 kW, you get a current of ~27A. The internal resistance of the battery would dissipate ~40W or 0.4% efficiency hit. Not much.

Let's assume the battery resistance increased by a factor of 4, then you would expect to get a 1.6% efficiency hit from that. Frankly, I doubt we could easily see the additional 1.2%.
3) Reduced capacity: Perhaps reduced capacity results in the average battery voltage being lower, thus increasing the current during all phases of a drive, increasing all resistive (I^2R) and IGBT conduction losses (although reducing some switching losses). I'm not sure how to quantify this possibility to see if it amounts to much, but perhaps it does.
4) Tires: I doubt it since I thought efficiency gets slightly higher as tires wear, but perhaps I am missing something.
5) Drivetrain losses: Are there any mechanisms which would cause frictional losses in the drivetrain to increase?

I guess I also feel like it is getting harder to maintain high efficiency driving our LEAF, but that could simply be how I feel after driving through a winter which was significantly colder than any we have had for a very long time.

Any other thoughts on where TickTock's (and presumably everyone else's) efficiency is going?
 
RegGuheert said:
4) Tires: I doubt it since I thought efficiency gets slightly higher as tires wear, but perhaps I am missing something.

I-60 Read that, then split the data into two sections based on that. Reanalyze.
 
WetEV said:
RegGuheert said:
4) Tires: I doubt it since I thought efficiency gets slightly higher as tires wear, but perhaps I am missing something.

I-60 Read that, then split the data into two sections based on that. Reanalyze.
Ha! I missed the note in cell I-60! Yeah, it looks pretty flat on either half. Thanks!
 
Probably picking up pieces of chewing gum on the tires over time. I cleaned mine up and got a 10% boost.
 
Yeah. Disappointed but not really surprised at the loss of efficiency with the new tires. Heard on this forum that it would recover after 1000 miles or so but 17000 miles later, I'm still waiting. :-/
 
TickTock said:
Yeah. Disappointed but not really surprised at the loss of efficiency with the new tires. Heard on this forum that it would recover after 1000 miles or so but 17000 miles later, I'm still waiting. :-/
That's pretty lame. Looks like a huge 14% loss of efficiency due to the MXV4s from what I can see - 4.55 mi/kWh (dash) before and 3.9 mi/kWh after (simple average, doesn't account for miles driven). That's horrendous!

What's most of your driving like (city, hwy, typical speeds) and what pressure do you inflate to?
 
I am running my MXV4s at 46 psi cold, goes up to 51 psi after driving 20+ miles. After break in, I am getting M/kWh 4.9 same as with the OEM ecopa's. Most of my driving is 45 mph and under, with lots if elevation changes.
 
I run the MXV4s at 40psi cold. My one-way commute is 15 miles surface streets (light or stop sign every mile or two, ~50mph peak) and 10 miles freeway (~75mph). Very little elevation change (~200ft drop, total, over the entire trip).
 
loss of regen from the update? I know my breaking regen used to be awesome, but after the big update it has completely sucked. I can hardly get more than a couple of bubbles no matter how warm or low the battery pack is. Could also be related to internal resistance as well. I haven't changed tires either :D
 
TickTock said:
I run the MXV4s at 40psi cold. My one-way commute is 15 miles surface streets (light or stop sign every mile or two, ~50mph peak) and 10 miles freeway (~75mph). Very little elevation change (~200ft drop, total, over the entire trip).
Would be interesting to try 46 psi like pchilds is running to see if it helps, but I'm not confident given that the point of diminishing returns for tire pressure is usually around 40 psi.

An increase in rolling resistance should show up more on the slower speed portion of your drive since air resistance is the major factor at higher speeds.
 
I, too, have doubts 15% increase in pressure will give me 15% improvement in efficiency :) but if it adds to the body of knowledge, I will happily run the experiment. Next Monday, I will increase to 46 and run there for a week or so.
 
I noticed that his range and mileage (efficiency) has both a general downward trend, and seasonal variations (both fall in colder seasons). I've not been gathering detailed data as long as he, but his performance "feels" much like mine.

In my case, I attribute such downward trends to loss of regeneration as the battery ages and in colder weather. Loss of regeneration has been occurring below a temperature that has been rising over time (currently about battery=80F, air=70F). This last winter, my regeneration was pretty much zip.
 
brettcgb said:
I noticed that his range and mileage (efficiency) has both a general downward trend, and seasonal variations (both fall in colder seasons). I've not been gathering detailed data as long as he, but his performance "feels" much like mine.

In my case, I attribute such downward trends to loss of regeneration as the battery ages and in colder weather. Loss of regeneration has been occurring below a temperature that has been rising over time (currently about battery=80F, air=70F). This last winter, my regeneration was pretty much zip.
The primary reduction in efficiency as noted earlier is due to the new tires and the steady reduction in range, well, no news there. I do see the slight seasonal dip in the efficiency you are referring to but hard to tell if that is systematic or just noise. Although there is reduced regen and denser air in the winter, I only have to run the heater a handful of day whereas during the summer the ac is on every day. So, the fact that there isn't a clear drop in efficiency in the summer with AC running does suggest that the winter effect (regen, air density) is stronger.
 
TickTock said:
I, too, have doubts 15% increase in pressure will give me 15% improvement in efficiency :) but if it adds to the body of knowledge, I will happily run the experiment. Next Monday, I will increase to 46 and run there for a week or so.
Looks like the effects of running 46 psi vs 40 psi are negligible?

I would really like to see what happens if you swap back on some EP422s, maybe someone local will trade you for a week. :)
 
drees said:
TickTock said:
I, too, have doubts 15% increase in pressure will give me 15% improvement in efficiency :) but if it adds to the body of knowledge, I will happily run the experiment. Next Monday, I will increase to 46 and run there for a week or so.
Looks like the effects of running 46 psi vs 40 psi are negligible?

I would really like to see what happens if you swap back on some EP422s, maybe someone local will trade you for a week. :)

what is the max pressure on them? i agree that there is minimal improvement when you get beyond a certain pressure but it seems to be related to the max rating. if the max is 44 PSI, then much beyond that is normally unnoticeable. but if max is 50 PSI then an increase from 40 would or should help.
 
drees said:
TickTock said:
I, too, have doubts 15% increase in pressure will give me 15% improvement in efficiency :) but if it adds to the body of knowledge, I will happily run the experiment. Next Monday, I will increase to 46 and run there for a week or so.
Looks like the effects of running 46 psi vs 40 psi are negligible?

I would really like to see what happens if you swap back on some EP422s, maybe someone local will trade you for a week. :)
Sorry, I never pumped them up. The max rated pressure is 44psi and I am uncomfortable exceeding that cold. Also, I have been taking data on the gid linearity and didn't want to muddy that data. Either way, even if it does improve the efficiency, if you have to pump up the MXV4s above their Max rated pressure to approach the Ecopia efficiency then they are still inferior from an efficiency perspective.
 
Changed out the tires on my hybrid from the original LRRs to a different brand's LRRs. Am seeing a massive decrease in MPG. Pretty stunning - especially since the new tires are supposed to be easy on the gallons.
 
TickTock said:
drees said:
TickTock said:
I, too, have doubts 15% increase in pressure will give me 15% improvement in efficiency :) but if it adds to the body of knowledge, I will happily run the experiment. Next Monday, I will increase to 46 and run there for a week or so.
Looks like the effects of running 46 psi vs 40 psi are negligible?

I would really like to see what happens if you swap back on some EP422s, maybe someone local will trade you for a week. :)
Sorry, I never pumped them up. The max rated pressure is 44psi and I am uncomfortable exceeding that cold. Also, I have been taking data on the gid linearity and didn't want to muddy that data. Either way, even if it does improve the efficiency, if you have to pump up the MXV4s above their Max rated pressure to approach the Ecopia efficiency then they are still inferior from an efficiency perspective.
The 215-45R17 MXV4s, I have, have a maximum pressure of 51 psi. Different sizes may have, different maximum pressures.

I put the Ecopias back on the LEAF on Saturday. So far I am getting 0.2 m/kWh better than the MXV4s. I guess my driving efficiency improved enough to makeup for the loss from the MXV4s. LEAF lifetime is, 4.9 m/kWh, last three days is 5.1 m/kWh.
 
TickTock said:
Sorry, I never pumped them up. The max rated pressure is 44psi and I am uncomfortable exceeding that cold. Also, I have been taking data on the gid linearity and didn't want to muddy that data. Either way, even if it does improve the efficiency, if you have to pump up the MXV4s above their Max rated pressure to approach the Ecopia efficiency then they are still inferior from an efficiency perspective.
Ah, I thought they were rated at 51psi. I doubt you'd be able to measure a difference between 40-44 psi, anyway. 36-40 psi - quite possible.

It does look like there is a 51 psi rated 205/55/16 MXV4 - it's also 3 lbs lighter and also only has 9/16" tread depth instead of 11/16". I highly suspect this tire is more efficient than the regular MXV4 most are using.(even at the same tread depth).
 
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