sub3marathonman
Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:57 am
Delivery Date: 31 Mar 2012
Location: Bartow, FL

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:50 am

drees wrote:Yes, I will take it to the dealer first and see what happens from there. Frankly, I'd be satisfied if Nissan offered partial compensation, which was what I tried to push for at part of the Nissan LAB group almost two years ago. The all or nothing aspect of the warranty sucks for something you can watch slowly wither away.


My objection is that yes, you can only watch it slowly wither away, but Nissan has been allowed, with their P3227 update, to potentially change the point at which that 9th bar withers away. Which is why if I was a month or two out of the warranty, or within 3000 miles of the warranty, I would definitely take the approach of Tim Lee at first, but if that didn't work I'd seriously look into filing a case against them and getting discovery on what exactly that update did in regard to capacity bars disappearing vs how it was calculated originally. (I've heard that one company even set their computer programming to fool emissions testing. :o )

I have mentioned before Leafer's case with the BBB where he claimed and successfully argued, when he was beyond the settlement warranty period, that it was due to defective batteries. I'd say that's the situation in all LEAFs, as it is similar to putting a Grade 5 bolt in the wing of an airplane that should have gotten a Grade 8 bolt, good enough unless it encounters turbulence, in which case it is bad, and of course my example would be much worse than in the case of the LEAF which remains on the ground.

Lambtron
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 12:39 pm
Delivery Date: 05 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 6977
Location: North Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:36 am

Finally hit 8 bars today. 22 days after the 5 yr. mark. Here are my specs:
Mileage: 33866
Gids: 180
SOC%: 95.8
V: 392.3
KWH: 14.0
Ahr: 41.87
SOH%: 63
Hx:%: 42.53
Max V Diff. (mv): 12
Temp Diff. (*): 3.2
Hopefully Nissan will work with me.

Evoforce
Posts: 752
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:01 pm

Lambtron wrote:Finally hit 8 bars today. 22 days after the 5 yr. mark. Here are my specs:
Mileage: 33866
Gids: 180
SOC%: 95.8
V: 392.3
KWH: 14.0
Ahr: 41.87
SOH%: 63
Hx:%: 42.53
Max V Diff. (mv): 12
Temp Diff. (*): 3.2
Hopefully Nissan will work with me.


Pretty much identical to mine on the stats but I qualified for a new battery under warranty. It is terrible that you missed it.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

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drees
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Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:54 pm

Lambtron wrote:Finally hit 8 bars today. 22 days after the 5 yr. mark. Hopefully Nissan will work with me.

Good luck. I was 2 months past 5 years, paid $120 for dealer diagnostics (after having paid about the same 2 months earlier) and Nissan would not provide any out of warranty assistance at all. Dealer was useless - all they'd say is that it's "normal". EV hotline was useless. Escalating the issue to managers proved useless as well. The car is almost useless for my wife's commute. 30 miles to LBW on a 80% charge and 45 miles to LBW on 100% charge are typical used to get 55 miles on 80% charge and 70 miles on 100%. Trips once taken worry free on a 80% charge the first year are no longer easily done on a 100% charge.

Way to take care of what should be your biggest fans, Nissan. :roll:
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

edatoakrun
Posts: 5012
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:53 pm

drees wrote:... 45 miles to LBW on 100% charge are typical used to get ...70 miles on 100%...

How many "miles" do you get below the LBW?

Looks like ~one third of my available capacity (on average, the LBC is not very consistent on when it gives the battery warnings) is below the LBW now.

On my most recent range/capacity test on 8/15/16 I got ~101.1 total miles, and ~6,500 ft. total ascent and descent, using the capacity from "100%"/192 gids to VLBW/24 gids.

~60.1 miles and ~1500 ft. net ascent to LBW (the first-I got the LBW twice on this trip) and another ~40.0 miles and ~1500 ft. net descent from that LBW to the VLBW.

I expect I had another ~15 (slow) "miles" left in the pack before turtle, but I'm still reserving that capacity for when-and-if I really need it...
no condition is permanent

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drees
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Location: San Diego

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:05 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
drees wrote:... 45 miles to LBW on 100% charge are typical used to get ...70 miles on 100%...

How many "miles" do you get below the LBW?

I estimate about 12 miles to turtle once LBW hits.

I did drain it to turtle in 35.4 mi on a 80% charge last month (got LBW around 25 miles on that one), but that was at a dismal 3.4 mi/kWh. FWIW, it took 17.9 kWh to recharge to 100% after that according to Blink. I never took the car to turtle the first year I had the car, but reports of 25-26 kWh weren't uncommon, so that matches up fairly closely with the gauges.

Also interesting is that the other day I topped it off from 80%-100% and it took 4.7 kWh. I rarely do that anymore because I need the range of a 100% charge now, but looking back at my charging notes, the most I ever saw the car take from 80-100% was 5.0 kWh, but lots of times it would only take 3.5-4.2 kWh to charge from 80-100%.
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

Stoaty
Posts: 4461
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:49 pm

edatoakrun wrote:On my most recent range/capacity test on 8/15/16 I got ~101.1 total miles, and ~6,500 ft. total ascent and descent, using the capacity from "100%"/192 gids to VLBW/24 gids.

At what average speed? What average speed on the uphill portion? What efficiency from the dash?
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

edatoakrun
Posts: 5012
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:31 pm

Stoaty wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:On my most recent range/capacity test on 8/15/16 I got ~101.1 total miles, and ~6,500 ft. total ascent and descent, using the capacity from "100%"/192 gids to VLBW/24 gids.

At what average speed? What average speed on the uphill portion? What efficiency from the dash?

Slow, only a few mph slower, and 7.4 m/kWh, using CarWings/NC reports of 98.3 miles/~13.4 kWh.

But the CW miles are obviously incorrect, and I don't find that ~13.4 kWh use report plausible over this route of 100.43 miles and~6460 ft ascent and descent (plus another ~0.7 miles and ~150 ft of descent and ascent on my driveway that Google can't map):

Image

So, usingactual miles driven/estimated actual kWh use:

101.1 miles/14.7 kWh =~6.9 m/kWh

See the explanation I posted on p 735, RE another long trip:

="Stanton" What was your miles/kW?

There are many incorrect ways to answer that question (three of which are below) and one fairly accurate correct answer.

Below are the results for the entire Vacaville (Nut Tree Plaza L2) to Corning (Heritage RV park) segment of my trip:

Actual miles driven/LBC (gid) kWh use report:

~114.4/14.3 = 8.0 m/kWh

Odometer miles driven/CarWings kWh use report (the Nav screen m/kWh display):

114.2/14.8 = 7.7 m/kWh

CarWings miles driven/CarWings kWh use report (the dash m/kWh display):

111.4/14.8 =7.5 m/kWh

Actual miles driven/estimated actual kWh use:

~114.4/~16.5 = ~6.9 m/kWh


Back to "average speed" of the 8/13 trip.

That might be a misleading gauge of efficiency on a trip like this, with such varying terrains and speeds.

The ~35 miles of 55mph highway was driven mostly at 30 to 45 mph.

The ~55 miles of lower-speed paved roads was driven mostly at 20 to 30 mph.

The ~10 miles of gravel and cinder roads were all driven under 20 mph.

Additionally, I try to limit kW use to 20 below the LBW ( which I got twice, at 59.8 and again at 79.0 odometer miles) and 10 kW after the VLB, which I go at 97.9 miles.

That means I try limit my speed to ~20 mph on the second ascent of Hatchet mountain (I actually did the last mile at ~15 mph behind a slow truck on 8/13/16) and it takes me close to 10 minutes for the final steep climb up my driveway.

I can tell you the total time for the first trip on 8/13 ( see report below) was ~114 minutes, and the return trip (with the additional miles driven, all off-highway, to bring the pack to VLB) took ~167 minutes, but both of those times include many stops for four stop signs, four stoplights, two stops for other reasons, and most significantly, at least a dozen full stops (sometimes waiting for several minutes to let the road clear) required to let faster traffic pass on the highway.

Image

That's probably the slowest I've ever driven this route, and probably the last time I'll be trying for 100 miles without driving past the VLBW.

Traffic is far heavier on this route than it was when I started driving this trip in my LEAF in 2011 (during the great recession, when gas cost ~$5 a gallon).

Now, having to pull over and stop on the two-lane highway for passing vehicles so frequently (and I try to do so before I obstruct them) when I drive this slowly is not only a PIA, but using the friction brakes to do so reduces overall efficiency and range.

And while there is, IMO, little chance my pack has actually lost ~31% of available (or total) capacity since delivery as my LBC indicates, I estimate (from metered recharge capacity) that my available capacity is down ~20% from that available from a 24kWh total pack, and probably about 17% less than It had available at delivery ~47k miles ago.
no condition is permanent

Stoaty
Posts: 4461
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:11 am

edatoakrun wrote:
Stoaty wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:On my most recent range/capacity test on 8/15/16 I got ~101.1 total miles, and ~6,500 ft. total ascent and descent, using the capacity from "100%"/192 gids to VLBW/24 gids.

At what average speed? What average speed on the uphill portion? What efficiency from the dash?

Slow, only a few mph slower, and 7.4 m/kWh, using CarWings/NC reports of 98.3 miles/~13.4 kWh.

A more meaningful test would be how far you can go at 60 MPH on a level road, since that would allow comparison with Tony's test of a new Leaf and accurately determine loss of capacity.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

sanshaloo
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:38 am
Delivery Date: 16 Aug 2016
Leaf Number: 026644

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:56 pm

I bought a used 2012 with 11 capacity bar. Lost another one few weeks back at about 32k Miles.

Ahr = 50.62
SOH = 77%
QC = 45

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