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TonyWilliams
Posts: 10085
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Location: San Diego
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:36 pm

azdre wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
The improved idiot-proof LEAF!



What we have done is put in many, many hours trying to alert Nissan to what is obviously an issue in consistently hot climates and to help all owners get what we paid for. You're welcome! :roll:

If only we could idiot-proof the forum.


The idiot proof LEAF would still need gas. The idiot proof forum would have no users :mrgreen:

When push comes to shove, each of us need to realize that Nissan will do exactly what works for Nissan first, and that likely will be what is cheapest "today". Expect more clinging to "range is not covered" all the way to sub 100 unit USA sales per month and new "facts" like "5 hours in 110F". That big 'ole factory in Tennessee can make as many or as few LEAFs as needed.

smkettner
Posts: 7311
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:45 pm

dsh wrote:Have 2 questions on this issue with Capacity Loss:

I am understanding correctly we could actually see a Battery Capacity bar being added back on? I.E. have 10 bars, but in winter may see 11 due to cooler weather?

Also, if I am using the 120V trickle charge when charging at my home(Waiting for EcoTality to install the 240V charger, will this damage the batteries?

Thanks All.

In a hot climate I think using the L1 is beneficial if that is needed to park outside to get maximum battery cooling overnight.
If you are parked in a garage that stays 20F+ over ambient then you are increasing the average temp significantly.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13783
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:07 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
dsh wrote:Have 2 questions on this issue with Capacity Loss:

I am understanding correctly we could actually see a Battery Capacity bar being added back on? I.E. have 10 bars, but in winter may see 11 due to cooler weather?

Also, if I am using the 120V trickle charge when charging at my home(Waiting for EcoTality to install the 240V charger, will this damage the batteries?

Thanks All.


We don't have acces to the battery degradation data as reported by the car (edit: with the exception of the obvious missing capacity bars at 85%, 78%, 71%, etc). We will when LEAFscan is released later this year.

There is a heat indexed limit to charging that we can only guess at the particulars. Dave guessed 2-3%; I've observed almost 10% at over 136F degrees (battery temp) when measuring stored energy via the Gidmeter at a "full" charge. When my battery returned to 70F ambient temperature later that day, it returned to 99% stored energy when fully charged.

Clearly, we don't have detailed data in this area, however it's just not that hard to get. Heating the battery is easy with multiple QC, then measuring the Gid count at set temperatures of the battery at "full" charges. Let the battery cool to 70F, and measure again. It should have returned to its original Gid count.

Please don't directly confuse this "temperature related charging inhibitor protocol" with permanent loss of capacity as reported by the battery capacity gauge. You will not get that back.


keep in mind my estimate is not "climate adjusted." factor in the "Phoenix effect" and it maybe 10%, in fact we can reason as (or create more rumor) by thinking...

now if we flip it a bit. i saw just over 19 KWH stored when my batteries this past winter were in the 30'sº range. so if we take a balance point of sorts to be 70F 35 is well, 35 º away and if 19.5/21.5= 90.6% or a "temporary temperature induced degradation" (or TTID) of 9.4%.

or we can take 105º which is still the same 35º away and then, i could see the TTID of about 10% which is in itself, acceptable and workable.

the problem is cold does not seem to have any lasting damage that i am aware of where heat does. i have always suspected that the AZ people who are reporting 20-25% loss is really only seeing 10-15% permanent loss with the rest being TTID.

so we go back to Nissan's "advisory" warning that passes in absence of a regular warranty of 20% in 5, 30 % in 10 which implies 2% a year after the initial breakin or whatever which means about 12 % in the first year or so. only then do we throw in penalties for OBA (owner battery abuse) whcih then brings us to just about what many Phoenicians are seeing.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

shrink
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:21 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2012
Leaf Number: 21842
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:30 pm

edatoakrun wrote:[
I think you have damaged your own credibility, with your 7/30 edit to your post starting this thread:


Damaged credibility? Really From someone making wacky statements such as these?
edatoakrun wrote:
I also want to point out, again , that by extrapolating current of US Southwest temperature trends over the last two years, the same way many have extrapolated Battery bar disappearance on this thread, could also lead to the conclusion that much of this region would be largely uninhabitable by humans during them "expected" lifespan of a 2012 LEAF battery pack.

If I lived in Phoenix, I might be much more worried about my home's future resale value, than my LEAF's...


A 2012 LEAF battery pack is going to last longer than the millions of homes in metro Phoenix, which will somehow by "uninhabitable by humans" in the near future? :lol:

azdre wrote:There is a HUGE difference between maximum battery life and losing 30% driving range in just over a year.

You are 3 months late trying to blame the users of these 48 (reported to the forum) cars for the issues they are seeing. It's been tried, and most of these kind folks quickly realized that there is no apparent correlation to loss of bars and behavior. From what I've seen, there may be a connection between the severity/speed of the loss and usage behavior, but there's no way to tell, and there's no reason to speculate. All of the affected drivers that we personally know (9, I think) have done NOTHING that was said not to do in the warranty book, nor the owners manual, and thus there's no reason to adjust our expectations of the performance of our vehicle. Most of these owners have had EVs in their garages for decades.

What we have done is put in many, many hours trying to alert Nissan to what is obviously an issue in consistently hot climates and to help all owners get what we paid for. You're welcome! :roll:

If only we could idiot-proof the forum.


+1 and well said.
2011 LEAF (Sold) | 2012 Volt (Sold) | 2012 LEAF (Lease Ended) | 2010 Tesla Roadster #501 | 2013 Tesla Model S #9001 | 6.827 kW SunPower PV System

mdh
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:09 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Aug 2011

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:41 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
dsh wrote:Have 2 questions on this issue with Capacity Loss:

I am understanding correctly we could actually see a Battery Capacity bar being added back on? I.E. have 10 bars, but in winter may see 11 due to cooler weather?

Also, if I am using the 120V trickle charge when charging at my home(Waiting for EcoTality to install the 240V charger, will this damage the batteries?

Thanks All.


We don't have acces to the battery degradation data as reported by the car (edit: with the exception of the obvious missing capacity bars at 85%, 78%, 71%, etc). We will when LEAFscan is released later this year.

There is a heat indexed limit to charging that we can only guess at the particulars. Dave guessed 2-3%; I've observed almost 10% at over 136F degrees (battery temp) when measuring stored energy via the Gidmeter at a "full" charge. When my battery returned to 70F ambient temperature later that day, it returned to 99% stored energy when fully charged.

Clearly, we don't have detailed data in this area, however it's just not that hard to get. Heating the battery is easy with multiple QC, then measuring the Gid count at set temperatures of the battery at "full" charges. Let the battery cool to 70F, and measure again. It should have returned to its original Gid count.

Please don't directly confuse this "temperature related charging inhibitor protocol" with permanent loss of capacity as reported by the battery capacity gauge. You will not get that back.


keep in mind my estimate is not "climate adjusted." factor in the "Phoenix effect" and it maybe 10%, in fact we can reason as (or create more rumor) by thinking...

now if we flip it a bit. i saw just over 19 KWH stored when my batteries this past winter were in the 30'sº range. so if we take a balance point of sorts to be 70F 35 is well, 35 º away and if 19.5/21.5= 90.6% or a "temporary temperature induced degradation" (or TTID) of 9.4%.

or we can take 105º which is still the same 35º away and then, i could see the TTID of about 10% which is in itself, acceptable and workable.

the problem is cold does not seem to have any lasting damage that i am aware of where heat does. i have always suspected that the AZ people who are reporting 20-25% loss is really only seeing 10-15% permanent loss with the rest being TTID.

so we go back to Nissan's "advisory" warning that passes in absence of a regular warranty of 20% in 5, 30 % in 10 which implies 2% a year after the initial breakin or whatever which means about 12 % in the first year or so. only then do we throw in penalties for OBA (owner battery abuse) whcih then brings us to just about what many Phoenicians are seeing.


Not sure why Nissan does not do some bragging about their technology IF they have some sizzle in their software, etc.

phxsmiley
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:33 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 7837
Location: Chandler, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:21 pm

Please move me from the 1-bar club to the 2-bar club on the Wiki. Unfortunately, I lost my second bar today, after only 11 months of ownership. Lost the first bar on 6/17 at 13,745 Miles; Lost the second on 8/6 at 15,868 miles. The second bar was lost in under 2 months and 2123 miles.

I'm hoping we get some solution where we get a better battery, somehow. I enjoy driving the car and really like the electric car experience; It's just not acceptable to lose that much capacity in under a year. It is already becoming less of a useful car in our family, as we now have to include in time for charging where we didn't have to before, for some recent trips.
Glacier Pearl SL-e, Delivered Aug 26th, 2011
Current Miles: 94,000 Miles (Aug 31st, 2017); Capacity Bars: 12/12;
EV Project; EVSE Upgrade Rev2

azdre
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:28 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:28 pm

phxsmiley wrote:Please move me from the 1-bar club to the 2-bar club on the Wiki. Unfortunately, I lost my second bar today, after only 11 months of ownership. Lost the first bar on 6/17 at 13,745 Miles; Lost the second on 8/6 at 15,868 miles. The second bar was lost in under 2 months and 2123 miles.

I'm hoping we get some solution where we get a better battery, somehow. I enjoy driving the car and really like the electric car experience; It's just not acceptable to lose that much capacity in under a year. It is already becoming less of a useful car in our family, as we now have to include in time for charging where we didn't have to before, for some recent trips.


So sorry, Smiley. :( I feel your pain.

opossum
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:40 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 500
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:29 pm

We got our car back today. It appears as though they resolved the diminishing capacity issue! I took a picture of the dash. Look, they simply tricked the car into thinking it is only 80 degrees today!

Image

But in reality, the Weather Channel app says it was 108!

Image

That should help fool the batteries into holding up better! Note: I took the pictures at about 4:30pm. It seems they rolled back the clock by an hour, maybe to erase an hour of capacity loss. :lol:

Okay, in all seriousness... they must have reset things a time or two. Now that weird cabin chime is back at power-up and power-down. More importantly, the car is still missing 2 capacity bars. The car had just 8 SOC bars when I picked it up. We're told that Nissan will not have anything to share on the testing they conducted for 2 to 3 weeks. The only specific we were given was that our car tested out at 85% capacity remaining, which was 2nd best of the cars they had. The best was supposedly 86%. This makes no sense to us, as it does not agree with our real world range loss from a year ago under similar driving conditions. In all, they put 34 miles on the odometer from the time the tow truck picked it up at our house to the time I picked it up at the dealership today.
azdre/opossum, Phoenix, 3/21/11 purchase, 10/2/12 lemon law return.
23k miles, 3 bars lost, officially rated "normal" by Nissan

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:30 pm

The three periods following a statement is known as an Ellipsis.

This article may help you to understand it's meaning, in the context of my statement, that you have quoted below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis



shrink wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:[
I think you have damaged your own credibility, with your 7/30 edit to your post starting this thread:


Damaged credibility? Really From someone making wacky statements such as these?
edatoakrun wrote:
I also want to point out, again , that by extrapolating current of US Southwest temperature trends over the last two years, the same way many have extrapolated Battery bar disappearance on this thread, could also lead to the conclusion that much of this region would be largely uninhabitable by humans during them "expected" lifespan of a 2012 LEAF battery pack.

If I lived in Phoenix, I might be much more worried about my home's future resale value, than my LEAF's...


A 2012 LEAF battery pack is going to last longer than the millions of homes in metro Phoenix, which will somehow by "uninhabitable by humans" in the near future? :lol:

azdre wrote:There is a HUGE difference between maximum battery life and losing 30% driving range in just over a year.

You are 3 months late trying to blame the users of these 48 (reported to the forum) cars for the issues they are seeing. It's been tried, and most of these kind folks quickly realized that there is no apparent correlation to loss of bars and behavior. From what I've seen, there may be a connection between the severity/speed of the loss and usage behavior, but there's no way to tell, and there's no reason to speculate. All of the affected drivers that we personally know (9, I think) have done NOTHING that was said not to do in the warranty book, nor the owners manual, and thus there's no reason to adjust our expectations of the performance of our vehicle. Most of these owners have had EVs in their garages for decades.

What we have done is put in many, many hours trying to alert Nissan to what is obviously an issue in consistently hot climates and to help all owners get what we paid for. You're welcome! :roll:

If only we could idiot-proof the forum.


+1 and well said.
no condition is permanent

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13783
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:31 pm

opossum wrote:We got our car back today. It appears as though they resolved the diminishing capacity issue! I took a picture of the dash. Look, they simply tricked the car into thinking it is only 80 degrees today!

Image

But in reality, the Weather Channel app says it was 108!

Image

That should help fool the batteries into holding up better! Note: I took the pictures at about 4:30pm. It seems they rolled back the clock by an hour, maybe to erase an hour of capacity loss. :lol:

Okay, in all seriousness... they must have reset things a time or two. Now that weird cabin chime is back at power-up and power-down. More importantly, the car is still missing 2 capacity bars. The car had just 8 SOC bars when I picked it up. We're told that Nissan will not have anything to share on the testing they conducted for 2 to 3 weeks. The only specific we were given was that our car tested out at 85% capacity remaining, which was 2nd best of the cars they had. The best was supposedly 86%. This makes no sense to us, as it does not agree with our real world range loss from a year ago under similar driving conditions. In all, they put 34 miles on the odometer from the time the tow truck picked it up at our house to the time I picked it up at the dealership today.


i told you that 3 weeks ago. i would pay more attention to when the first modules come off the line in TN
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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