Problems with battery?

Hello,
I am not newbie in electric cars, but totally newbie in Nissan Leaf.
Today I have bought Nissan Leaf 2011 (US model) in Norway. It was sold as faulty - most probably battery problems. That is what I know about car:
- It fully charges up to 100% (all bars);
- When first time after charging car starts - it goes to turtle mode, but if you switch it off and on again, then it starts normally;
- When car is fully charged, it shows, that you can drive ~120Km, but actually it goes about 20km.
- There is problem with abs.


When car was imported to Norway, after few months problems started and car spent almost a year in workshops. What I know is that they changed 4 battery modules at all. After changing modules, car was working normally for up to two weeks, but then problems started again. Finally, the former owner was noticed, that she needs to change the whole battery pack.

I have found battery pack from 2012 SL model. This replacement battery has heater, but my battery is without heater. Could there be any problem to replace to this pack? Could I move only battery modules, if battery pack will not fit?
One more thing that I am wondering about battery pack that I found to buy, that car which it was removed from, have had a flood damage (not 100% sure). Seller of it told, that before removing from car, it was charging normally. The car, that they were removed from have had 0 or very low mileage. But the problem is that I cannot check that battery myself and I need to give answer to buy very soon.

But otherwise - could there be not batteries problem? I don't have ELM327 to connect Leaf Spy, but tomorrow I will try to get it.
I would be very thankful for any comments and suggestions about my problem.

Why would you want to buy a "B stock" (known problems/repair) of such an expensive (and complicated) item? My experience is you ended up regretting it...until you buy an "A stock" version of the same item (which is pretty expensive for a car). If you really want a Leaf, buy one you know works and let the dealer fix and/or part out the problem car.

It seems to me that if replacing four battery modules didn't solve the problem, it could very well be something other than a bad battery pack. I agree that trying to make this car work correctly could be either prohibitively expensive or even impossible, without knowing for certain what the exact problem is with it.

My opinion is this car you are looking to buy would be good for parts only.

AFAIK the 2012 battery should fit fine. Without diagnostic equipment you will just need to continue replacing major components if the battery swap does not work. Good luck.

You're more likely to find help within Norway with the amount of old leafs that travel there. Almost all owners in North America still have a warrantee and the dealers are the only ones working on them. Standard dealer practice isn't to fix anything but replace the least amount of parts in the order that Nissan tells them until the problem goes away.

I'd say this car is perfect for a donor conversion to convert an ICE car to an EV with an aftermarket controller. The only way I would try to fix it without dealer help is if you had another working leaf to donate parts 1 at a time until the problem goes away then you know exactly which parts you need to buy without wasting money replacing good parts. When it's all done you have 2 working cars. The risk is that if there is something wrong with the car that is causing another part to fail. IE you move a computer from the good car to the bad car, it doesn't help fix it so you put it back in the good car and the good car now has the same problems. This helps you diagnose it but it is bad financially since you now have 2 broken cars. This method may need access to Nissan diagnostic computers though.

If it really is a problem with the battery you should be able to take the pack apart (which can be dangerous) and get each cell tested. If it's a problem with how the computer thinks the battery is behaving then buying a new battery won't do much. Since the cars never run to a 0% battery charge then when you get beyond turtle and the car stops moving it's not a 0% but the computer thinking it's at it's low cut off. The computer is either right or wrong. Have you tried driving it in turtle mood until it stops? You said it shows 120km but only goes 20km. What point is that 20km based on, low battery, guess o meter, to turtle or to dead? If it's not to dead try pushing it there to see how far it goes beyond turtle? It might cause the computer to re learn some battery information. The only thing that costs is time and a tow home. If you feel safe jacking it up and letting it drive the wheels in the air you can save both time and tow but the energy use would be very efficient and the km's not a proper reflection of the real world. There may also be problems with the rear wheels not moving and stability control but the car should have some mode capable of putting it on a dyno that has the same limitations.

First thing is get leaf spy pro and an ELM 327 and post the codes it throws. I can help you but I need a few clues to start.

There are differences in the pack wiring harnesses with and without battery heater. We also don't know how to program the VCM (main computer) to accept a different (non-original) battery without the dealer tools (consult III+). I would guess that you'd need to swap over all the battery modules. I would not touch a flooded battery, it is not worth the risk.

ABS may be related to the battery not accepting regen or high power output. Tackle that after you've fixed the battery issue.

According to the service manual, there are two conditions that would allow charging, but not full power output (turtle): module voltage issues and pack voltage sensor issues.

Most likely you have this DTC: P33ED BATTERY PARALLEL- When a sudden voltage fluctuation is detected in module.
The sense wires or main current wires might be loose or incorrectly installed. They could have also installed defective modules or did not align the voltage with the rest of the cells in the pack before installation. The cell voltage screen of leafspy will be key here.

Slightly less likely: Your "total voltage" or pack voltage sensor inside the battery is defective. This comes up as a P30F3, P30F4, or P30F5. These codes may also come up with P33ED or others, which in case the battery controller is having difficulty reconciling the individual cell voltages' summed against the total voltage sensor.

Least likely: The battery controller board is defective. DTC's will be set for controller internal communication errors. I really doubt this is the cause unless the earlier repair attempts damaged something.

The controllers seem to be sensitive to the power supply, so if not already
done, make sure the 12 volt battery is not low. I remember reading that things
like turtle occurring on a fully charged battery happens if the 12 volt battery
is low.

Thank you, this seems very useful information.
I still don't have ELM327 to read cells voltages and DTC codes. I hope to get it next week.
I was using car a little bit, it works perfectly, only discharging very quickly. Turtle mode is not always comming. If driving not in turtle mode, is lets to use full power of the car (80kW). In 10km (~6 miles) it lost about 50% or more of SOC. It also takes very short time to charge it to full state of charge (0.5 - 1h). When starting to charge, SOC going up slowly, and then immediately it goes to full. So I am guessing, that one (or more) cell have very low capacity (and big internal resistance) - when I start driving it drops voltage very quickly, and when I start charging it raises voltage, then it is shunted, but when shunt is not enough to drop voltage to same level with other cells, then it stops charging. That is only my theory, it could be totally different

I have report from workshop, when car have had the same problem. I don't remember DTC code, but it was something with cells voltage deviation.

Is there any cheaper diagnostic software, that could work like Nissan Consult 3+? Cheapest clone I found cost about 1500USD. Could Nissan Consult 4 work with leaf? It is much cheaper.

Mantas said:

I still don't have ELM327 to read cells voltages and DTC codes

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Did you order one from China or something? Just spend the few extra $ to get one local. It's really not that much.

No idea on the Consult 4. Not sure if any clone has leaf related stuff in it.

You could have a catastrophic cell failure, or one or more cells that were put in to replace it were not matched to the voltage of the pack. If the new cells were full but the pack was near empty, the high cell would hit the upper voltage threshold way before the others, stopping the charge. Similarly if the cell was near empty but the pack full. The shunt resistors are really really small, and won't help here.

Again, just guessing until you get the ELM. Go get it! Get it now!

Hello again, I have some updates for this topic.
Finally I got ELM which works on Leaf - I have tried few before got connection.
I have seen what I have expected - some cells was much bellow average. Difference between max and min voltages was around 330mV.
So I have changed the whole battery pack, including battery controller. New (used) battery pack seems good, voltage imbalance was about 15mV, but when charged, it increased up to 30mV. I hope this is not too much? Maybe it will balance better after some charging/discharging cycles?
Now the problem is that battery controller ID differs from car ID, and I get error "Invalid battery". Because of this error motor power is limited to 40kW and speed is limited to 40km/h (but this is not turtle mode).
I need to perform battery registration procedure. According workshop manuals this should be performed using Nissan Consult 3+ with "exclusive" card. Is there any cheaper tool, which can do this job? I have tried Autel MaxiDas - it shows many parameters from all controllers, but doesn't let to program anything.

Mantas said:

I need to perform battery registration procedure. According workshop manuals this should be performed using Nissan Consult 3+ with "exclusive" card.

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Nope. That's the only way it's done.

Edit: Actually, assuming both packs are of the same type, you can swap the battery controller from the old pack (which contains the correct registered ID) to the new pack. But that assumes, of course, there is nothing wrong with your old controller.

It sounds like a real uphill battle, and I wish you all the luck in the world. Heck, I'm impressed you've stuck with it and got this far.

Mantas said:

New (used) battery pack seems good, voltage imbalance was about 15mV, but when charged, it increased up to 30mV. I hope this is not too much? Maybe it will balance better after some charging/discharging cycles?

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15mV is really good. Out of spec on these packs is something like 65mV, so you've got a ways to go before you have to be concerned about it. I certainly wouldn't worry too much about 30mV or less.

I am thinking about swapping battery controllers. I cannot be sure, that my old controller is good, but in that case I can swap them back again.
But will my old battery controller adapt itself to new batteries SOC and capacity? Cannot there be a malfunction? In my opinion it should adapt SOC, because it know voltage. But what about capacity? My new batteries controller shows 67.17AH (SOH=100%) and old battery controller shows 56.61AH (SOH=86%).

Mantas said:

In my opinion it should adapt SOC, because it know voltage. But what about capacity? My new batteries controller shows 67.17AH (SOH=100%) and old battery controller shows 56.61AH (SOH=86%).

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It should adapt just fine. It probably won't be immediate, and could take a good few days actually.

Mantas said:

... According workshop manuals this should be performed using Nissan Consult 3+ with "exclusive" card. Is there any cheaper tool, which can do this job?...

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You may want to read Mike's previous post where he explained the IC security card that comes with new batteries.
See:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=14102&p=404109&hilit=+card#p404109" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even though Nissan sells LEAFs including the battery, they apparently did not want anyone repurposing or reusing them like you are doing.

So they do not give the purchaser the IC security card that is needed to reprogram a LEAF to accept the Lithium Battery Controller (LBC) using the Consult 3.

Seems unethical to me, but that is what they have done with this "propietary" product they are selling.

mwalsh said:

Mantas said:

In my opinion it should adapt SOC, because it know voltage. But what about capacity? My new batteries controller shows 67.17AH (SOH=100%) and old battery controller shows 56.61AH (SOH=86%).

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It should adapt just fine. It probably won't be immediate, and could take a good few days actually.

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I think Mike is correct, the LBC will eventually learn the battery characteristics.
If you had a Consult 3 you would perform the CLEAR BATTERY GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS DATA to force the LBC to get rid of the old info and start again.
But without doing that the LBC should eventually throw out the old info.

Mantas said:

I am thinking about swapping battery controllers. I cannot be sure, that my old controller is good, but in that case I can swap them back again.
But will my old battery controller adapt itself to new batteries SOC and capacity? Cannot there be a malfunction? In my opinion it should adapt SOC, because it know voltage. But what about capacity? My new batteries controller shows 67.17AH (SOH=100%) and old battery controller shows 56.61AH (SOH=86%).

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I'd just go to a dealer and pay them for 1hr labor or less to marry the new pack to your car, seems less involved and risky than swapping the controller. Have them clear the gradual capacity loss data at the same time. Good luck.

Valdemar said:

I'd just go to a dealer and pay them for 1hr labor or less to marry the new pack to your car, seems less involved and risky than swapping the controller. Have them clear the gradual capacity loss data at the same time. Good luck.

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Can't do it without the IC card, and we haven't established yet whether there is a way of coming up with that data to write it to a card or directly back into Consult (if that's even possible).

mwalsh said:

Can't do it without the IC card, and we haven't established yet whether there is a way of coming up with that data to write it to a card or directly back into Consult (if that's even possible).

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At the Nissan corporate level I am sure they can generate the IC security card for reuse of an LBC.

But I agree it is unlikely that a dealer can do that.
Whole point of the card is to attempt to prevent individuals or dealers from repurposing battery packs.

mwalsh said:

Valdemar said:

I'd just go to a dealer and pay them for 1hr labor or less to marry the new pack to your car, seems less involved and risky than swapping the controller. Have them clear the gradual capacity loss data at the same time. Good luck.

Click to expand...

Can't do it without the IC card, and we haven't established yet whether there is a way of coming up with that data to write it to a card or directly back into Consult (if that's even possible).

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Ah, I should have clicked on that link before posting. I guess my plan to source a pack from junkyard when the time comes may not pan out very well. What a mess...