It looks like I may be selling my Leaf...

[ EDIT: I created an actual "For Sale" thread here. ]

Hi, everybody.

It looks like I may be forced into selling my not-quite-6-month-old Leaf. I've become unable to work due to medical reasons, and that means I (we) can't afford to continue to live in California. (Mainly due to our housing costs.) We're seriously considering a move to Georgia, where I have family and can afford to buy a house outright using the equity in my current house. Everything is still up in the air at the moment, but I'm trying to think everything through. I'd love to hear your input, for or against, regarding whether I should sell my car. I love my Leaf, and would like to keep it, but here are the reasons I am leaning towards selling it:

I received the $5k California Clean Vehicle rebate. As I understand it, if I register my Leaf in Georgia, California will come looking for their money. Since I would not have bought the Leaf in the absence of that rebate, I probably shouldn't keep it either, especially since my financial situation has become dire. (I believe I will need to give California most of their money back if I sell, as well. It does seem like I'm screwed either way on this one.)

It will cost me $800+ to truck the Leaf out to Georgia. Not a ton of money in the grand scheme of things, but again, I'm trying to save all I can.

If I sell, I won't have to keep making the $250 payments on my Leaf loan, going forward. Again, I wish this wasn't a big deal, but God knows how long I will be out of work, and how much I will be making once I'm able to return.

I might end up with a commute that isn't Leaf-friendly. Sure, the Leaf will always be a great "errands car", but maybe I can't afford that luxury.

So, that's why I think I should probably sell it. Here are the problems I can envision with selling it:

Apparently the Federal tax refund thingie is a non-factor. I'll be able to claim that refund, no matter what I do, I think. I didn't intend on re-selling the car this soon, so I think the IRS will accept this. Please correct me if I'm wrong. See this thread for more discussion on this topic.

I'm in the Blink/Ecotality program. They gave me a free EVSE, a free install of said EVSE, and a free L3 port on my Leaf. How miffed are they going to be if I bail out after 7-8 months? Has anyone done this yet?

The aforementioned $5k California rebate. If I sell, it seems like I will have to give most of it back, and yet the new (Californian) owner will also be ineligible for any rebate. So it seems like that entire $5k (pro-rated?) will come right out of my pocket. I'm hoping that I'm misunderstanding this part. If the rebate was designed to encourage Californians to buy EVs, and to drive EVs, it seems like if I sell to another Californian, no harm, no foul, right?

DaveNagy said:

Hi, everybody.

It looks like I may be forced into selling my not-quite-6-month-old Leaf. I've become unable to work due to medical reasons, and that means I (we) can't afford to continue to live in California. (Mainly due to our housing costs.) We're seriously considering a move to Georgia, where I have family and can afford to buy a house outright using the equity in my current house. Everything is still up in the air at the moment, but I'm trying to think everything through. I'd love to hear your input, for or against, regarding whether I should sell my car. I love my Leaf, and would like to keep it, but here are the reasons I am leaning towards selling it:

I received the $5k California Clean Vehicle rebate. As I understand it, if I register my Leaf in Georgia, California will come looking for their money. Since I would not have bought the Leaf in the absence of that rebate, I probably shouldn't keep it either, especially since my financial situation has become dire. (I believe I will need to give California most of their money back if I sell, as well. It does seem like I'm screwed either way on this one.)

It will cost me $800+ to truck the Leaf out to Georgia. Not a ton of money in the grand scheme of things, but again, I'm trying to save all I can.

If I sell, I won't have to keep making the $250 payments on my Leaf loan, going forward. Again, I wish this wasn't a big deal, but God knows how long I will be out of work, and how much I will be making once I'm able to return.

I might end up with a commute that isn't Leaf-friendly. Sure, the Leaf will always be a great "errands car", but maybe I can't afford that luxury.

So, that's why I think I should probably sell it. Here are the problems I can envision with selling it:

Apparently the Federal tax refund thingie is a non-factor. I'll be able to claim that refund, no matter what I do, I think. I didn't intend on re-selling the car this soon, so I think the IRS will accept this. Please correct me if I'm wrong. See this thread for more discussion on this topic.

I'm in the Blink/Ecotality program. They gave me a free EVSE, a free install of said EVSE, and a free L3 port on my Leaf. How miffed are they going to be if I bail out after 7-8 months? Has anyone done this yet?

The aforementioned $5k California rebate. If I sell, it seems like I will have to give most of it back, and yet the new (Californian) owner will also be ineligible for any rebate. So it seems like that entire $5k (pro-rated?) will come right out of my pocket. I'm hoping that I'm misunderstanding this part. If the rebate was designed to encourage Californians to buy EVs, and to drive EVs, it seems like if I sell to another Californian, no harm, no foul, right?

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I don't see the point of paying the rebate back if the new owner is in CA. You are entitled to the Fed rebate. I think the refund disclosure was intended to keep people from buying and selling immediately and If it were my car I would sell it and not worry unless they contact you then explain your situation. If you break even or lose money on the car I can;t see them hounding you for it. If you take it out of state and sell that would be different.

sorry to hear about your medical issue.
I dont see the point of keeping it, if you are truly concerned about cash flow AND you dont know what your commute will be when you are well and find a new Borg in GA.

Blink will be reasonable. they just take it back.
the rebate from CA, goes back pro-rated so you may lose little depending on what you can sell it for.
The federal rebate is more complex as if you sell it, you have to use the rebate to decrease the car's basis and any sale figure recaptures the gain as a capital gain.

be well. blessings.

Contact the people at CCSE, they are really easy to work with. I think they can approve a scenario where the prorated rebate goes to the new owner, instead. According to the CVRP Implementation Manual:

With the exception of vehicles purchased under the special provisions in section 2.6, vehicle purchasers and lessees participating in the CVRP are required to keep the vehicle and meet all applicable project requirements for a minimum 36 month period after the vehicle purchase or lease date. If a vehicle purchaser or lessee sells or returns to the dealer the rebated vehicle, ARB or its designee reserves the right to recoup all or part of the original rebate amount from the original vehicle purchaser identified on the rebate form and may pursue other remedies available under the law.

However, resale of a vehicle or return to a dealer is allowed within this 36 month period if necessitated by unforeseen or unavoidable circumstances. To employ this provision, ARB must approve the circumstances and sale in advance. If the vehicle is resold, the vehicle purchaser or lessee must assign a prorated portion of their rebate, in an amount equivalent to the original rebate amount divided by 36 months and then multiplied by the number of months remaining in the original 36 month period (rounded to the nearest month), to the new owner or lessee of the vehicle. The new owner or lessee of the vehicle must be a CVRP eligible vehicle purchaser or lessee and agree in writing to ARB or its designee to abide by the terms and conditions of the CVRP including, but not limited to, operating and registering the vehicle in California for the remaining rebate term. If the vehicle is returned to the dealer, the same prorated portion of the rebate must be returned to the ARB or its designee.

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So, by all means talk to them ahead of time (it's required). You should be able to use this to keep from losing twice, once by paying back the rebate and again by having to take a lower price because the new owner can't get it.

Well, that's wonderful news. Thanks for the info and well wishes.

It seems like selling my Leaf is probably the prudent thing to do, and it's nice to hear that all the various agencies are not going to make that more of a hardship than it needs to be.

I did speak to someone at the Ecotality/Blink/EV-Project office, and I can confirm that they seemed quite easy-going about losing me from the program. I'll just need to return the Blink when the time comes, and perhaps pay a smallish labor fee for the person to come out and unmount the unit. They did not feel that I would asked to make good on the money the project spent on the original EVSE install. Similarly, it's doubtful that I will need to give back the $700 refund that I was provided for the L3 port.

I really couldn't ask for better treatment than that. I'm a little shocked.

Umm, would it be appropriate for me to make a "For Sale" thread when the time comes? (Not for a couple months, probably. I need to list and sell my house first.) Do we have a sub-forum for that sort of thing?

It's too bad to hear about your health situation. Bummer having to give up a car you waited so long to get.

I'd be interested to see what your asking price, and ultimate selling price for a 6 month old Leaf are.

Seems there are quite a few orphans that can be picked up in CA - which I think still include full federal and state rebates. It will be interesting to see if your asking price is depreciated off of those rebates - and what it ultimately sells for.

Sorry for your health problems, I hope you can fully recover.

Yes, DO call and talk to the CCSE folks soon, and see what they
can/will work out.

There might be different answers depending upon taking the vehicle
out-of-state, or if you are planning to sell it to a CA owner.

Yes, I think the plan will be to sell the car to another Californian, rather than take it out of state.

So, people are still getting the full $5k California rebate? My impression was that the fund had temporarily run out of money, and going forward, the rebate would be $2,500. I'll have to read up on that again; I've gotten pretty behind on this forum.

I guess my strategy on pricing will be to pass along all the rebate savings I received, while hopefully not taking too much of a hit on depreciation. I'm hoping that the popularity/scarcity of the car, coupled with the new-ness and low-mileage-ness of my car, will help me get a decent percentage of my money back.

Lemme see. The car was about $33k, new. Less the $7,500 in federal tax savings that I will get if the stars align properly. (They won't.) Less the $1,000 or so for the pro-rated part of the CA rebate that I will get to "keep" for holding onto the car for almost a year. Less the $700 that the EV-Project rebated me for the L3 port.

So, that's... what? $23,800? And the buyer should be able to claim "the rest" of the CA rebate of about $4,000 or so. That would make their effective price something right around $20k. That seems like a pretty decent deal for a car with less than 3,000 miles on it. (But of course, I would say that, since I thought it was a pretty decent deal brand new!)

Does anybody have contact info for the CCSE?

DaveNagy said:

Yes, I think the plan will be to sell the car to another Californian, rather than take it out of state.

So, people are still getting the full $5k California rebate? My impression was that the fund had temporarily run out of money, and going forward, the rebate would be $2,500. I'll have to read up on that again; I've gotten pretty behind on this forum.

I guess my strategy on pricing will be to pass along all the rebate savings I received, while hopefully not taking too much of a hit on depreciation. I'm hoping that the popularity/scarcity of the car, coupled with the new-ness and low-mileage-ness of my car, will help me get a decent percentage of my money back.

Lemme see. The car was about $33k, new. Less the $7,500 in federal tax savings that I will get if the stars align properly. (They won't.) Less the $1,000 or so for the pro-rated part of the CA rebate that I will get to "keep" for holding onto the car for almost a year. Less the $700 that the EV-Project rebated me for the L3 port.

So, that's... what? $23,800? And the buyer should be able to claim "the rest" of the CA rebate of about $4,000 or so. That would make their effective price something right around $20k. That seems like a pretty decent deal for a car with less than 3,000 miles on it. (But of course, I would say that, since I thought it was a pretty decent deal brand new!)

Does anybody have contact info for the CCSE?

Click to expand...

The CA Rebate is now $2500; and there'e a que.

Another possible option, since the new "owner" if you sell, is not eligible for any of the rebate monies anyway....

Consider the possibility of transferring the title in STAGES to a new owner. This would require you to have some confidence in the responsibility of the new principle driver, as you would still be on the title of the car. But in this process, you are STILL the official owner or part owner of the car....this also can SAVE the new "principal driver" of the car major sales tax of this "partial transfer." At the end of the lease period, 2.5 years, then the new "principal driver" gets you to sign over your interest in the car to them totally, (still without any additional sales tax according to my understanding), and they take full ownership of the car. Technically you have fulfilled all your duties as part of the original agreements for the rebates relative to the car....

You still have to get the EVSE removed and may be liable for installation and removal costs on that part of the incentive program....

I am NOT an accountant, but I have heard about such "partial transfers" and joint ownerships working in the past here in California.

DaveNagy said:

... So, people are still getting the full $5k California rebate? My impression was that the fund had temporarily run out of money, and going forward, the rebate would be $2,500. I'll have to read up on that again; I've gotten pretty behind on this forum.
...
So, that's... what? $23,800? And the buyer should be able to claim "the rest" of the CA rebate of about $4,000 or so. That would make their effective price something right around $20k. That seems like a pretty decent deal for a car with less than 3,000 miles on it. (But of course, I would say that, since I thought it was a pretty decent deal brand new!)

Does anybody have contact info for the CCSE?

Click to expand...

That's not the way I read it. The way I read it is that you have to give the prorated rebate money to the new owner, and he has to promise to abide by the terms of the rebate program. He doesn't apply to CCSE for the rebate, you apply to be allowed to transfer the rebate money to the new owner instead of paying it back to CCSE. Therefore, the fact that the current rebate has dropped to $2500 is irrelevant, as is the waiting list. He gets the money from you at the time of sale.

For contacting CCSE, the website contact page should do the job nicely: http://energycenter.org/index.php/about-us/contact-us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't think you'll have any problem holding onto the federal tax rebate. the way I understand it, as long as you didn't buy with the intent to resell, and you're able to show that you didn't profit on the resale, you'll be all right in the unlikely event you're audited.

davewill said:

That's not the way I read it. The way I read it is that you have to give the prorated rebate money to the new owner, and he has to promise to abide by the terms of the rebate program. He doesn't apply to CCSE for the rebate, you apply to be allowed to transfer the rebate money to the new owner instead of paying it back to CCSE. Therefore, the fact that the current rebate has dropped to $2500 is irrelevant, as is the waiting list.

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Ah. Yes, I think you are correct. Much less paperwork that way. If the CCSE agrees, I would perhaps "keep" the full $5000, but I would reduce the price I was asking for the car by a similar amount. The benefit of the rebate would then be, in effect, passed along to the new owner.

So, at best, I should probably ask no more than $20k for the car.

I do think that the current status of the CA rebate is relevant to this discussion, since it makes my cost basis lower than that of someone who wants to buy a new Leaf today. (It makes my used Leaf more price-competitive than it would otherwise be.)

i am truly sorry to hear about your medical condition but you mention that you may be able to go back to work in the future?

as far as selling the Leaf? i would not do it. now, i really dont have enough information on your situation but the housing prices between CA and GA are extreme. without knowing the equity you have, etc. its possible you could sell your home and have enough to buy in GA and so on...

well, you will never be able to get a Leaf for as little as you paid for this one. what ever vehicle you replace it with, you can guarantee $1000+ per year in additional expenses, etc. etc. etc. but i am sure you already know that.

i guess the big unknown is the distance of your potential commute. i would put off selling the Leaf until the last minute. i am sorry, and i know losing your income makes the future a huge slippery and scary uncertainity, but in your shoes, i would do everything i could to keep it.

DaveNagy said:

Hi, everybody.

It looks like I may be forced into selling my not-quite-6-month-old Leaf. I've become unable to work due to medical reasons, and that means I (we) can't afford to continue to live in California. (Mainly due to our housing costs.) We're seriously considering a move to Georgia, where I have family and can afford to buy a house outright using the equity in my current house. Everything is still up in the air at the moment, but I'm trying to think everything through. I'd love to hear your input, for or against, regarding whether I should sell my car. I love my Leaf, and would like to keep it, but here are the reasons I am leaning towards selling it:
...
I received the $5k California Clean Vehicle rebate. As I understand it, if I register my Leaf in Georgia, California will come looking for their money. Since I would not have bought the Leaf in the absence of that rebate, I probably shouldn't keep it either, especially since my financial situation has become dire. (I believe I will need to give California most of their money back if I sell, as well. It does seem like I'm screwed either way on this one.)

The aforementioned $5k California rebate. If I sell, it seems like I will have to give most of it back, and yet the new (Californian) owner will also be ineligible for any rebate. So it seems like that entire $5k (pro-rated?) will come right out of my pocket. I'm hoping that I'm misunderstanding this part. If the rebate was designed to encourage Californians to buy EVs, and to drive EVs, it seems like if I sell to another Californian, no harm, no foul, right?

Click to expand...

Sorry to hear the news.

If there is a real possibility of returning to California, you might leave it registered in CA, and retain the rebate under the idea that you are temporarily out of state for some months, but intending to return. Given your statements, sounds like returning to California within, say 12 months, is highly unlikely.

You might think about your relatives in Georgia, and any of them who might be able to make use of the LEAF and make the full or partial payments for it. (kids, first time drivers, someone with a commute that fits the LEAF, the family gearhead, retired family members for around town, whoever the LEAF would fit) You might even trade vehicles for a while with a relative, depending on your commute requirements. Use the 120V or the EVSE upgrade for charging to minimize the costs associated with installing a new EV charger.

Keeping the LEAF and maintaining the payments is a financial challenge in your situation, particularly if you have to purchase another, presumably used vehicle, to cover your commute if it's outside the LEAF range.

Gas prices and maintenance for another vehicle will be more than what you spend on the LEAF for electricity and maintenance, but if you get a good used vehicle - maybe an older used Prius or other hybrid - for $4,000 or so, with the saved new car payment vs. used car, the used car should be cheaper after a few years, assuming gas doesn't go to $10/gallon.

Best wishes, whatever you decide. I think we'd all be interested in how you end up dealing with this.

A 2011 LEAF SL + QC Option
What color and accessories?
Where located now?

DaveNagy said:

... If the CCSE agrees, I would perhaps "keep" the full $5000, but I would reduce the price I was asking for the car by a similar amount. The benefit of the rebate would then be, in effect, passed along to the new owner.

So, at best, I should probably ask no more than $20k for the car.

Click to expand...

Perhaps, but I would ask CCSE before making that assumption...they may want the rebate amount to be paid separately. Don't forget that the new owner has to sign on the dotted line, agreeing to the same CVRP restrictions you're dealing with now. I'd bring up the question of sales price with CCSE as well to make sure there isn't a price they won't let you exceed.

DaveNagy said:

I do think that the current status of the CA rebate is relevant to this discussion, since it makes my cost basis lower than that of someone who wants to buy a new Leaf today. (It makes my used Leaf more price-competitive than it would otherwise be.)

Click to expand...

Yes, it definitely does.

I'm trying to contact the Georgia Dept. of Revenue to find out if you can qualify for the GA Income Tax Credit of $5000 (or a prorated part of it).

I will post my findings.

**EDIT**

I received a call back from the DOR and they say, to make it short, that it might be possible to claim the tax credit but they would like the owner to call directly as they may have some questions back and forth.

Their phone number is: 404 417 2441

I wish you the best in sorting this out.

Amtoro, that's very kind of you to do that leg work with the state of Georgia. I will certainly give them a call. It seems almost too good to be true that they would be willing to give me 2/3rds of the GA rebate if I registered my almost-new Leaf there. But, hey, maybe they will! My wife and I are traveling to GA tomorrow to look at houses, and the area in general. We will make our decision about moving after we get back. I'll give the Georgia Dept. of Revenue a call after that, if necessary.

I'd still need to pay to ship the car to GA, and I'd still be on the hook for those $250/mo payments, so that approach is still something I need to ponder. Plus there is the risk that the house we buy will be EVSE-unfriendly, and/or the commutes that both my wife and I eventually end up with will both be too long. But, we do have some control over those last two factors, so I will keep an open mind.

I've traded one email with Kyle at the CCSE, and I should know more about the official policies before too long.

Garygid, I'm hesitant to turn this thread into a full-on "For Sale" thread with info about the car itself. It's probably too early for that, and I worry that such a discussion might belong in a different sub-forum. Having said that, the car is a white SL, with L3 port, floor mats and the cargo net thingie. I'm in Livermore.

ElectricVehicle: Thanks for your many thoughts. Some interesting ideas in there.

HI DaVE,
Sorry, about your health problems. After reading your treads I realize you have decisions to make. I miss read your possible price quote.
I am interested in your Leaf. I live in Morgan Hill, Cal and I am a qualified buyer with Nissan, rebates etc. Please let me know if you want to sell the Leaf. We will work out a price or possible trade for my 05 Prius.
My email is [email protected]
Thanks, John F.

How much should you sell it for? Easy. Just look at Mossy Nissan and see how much they are selling their used Leafs for.

Lowest asking price for an SL is $29995 and you can check out what options it has. Lowest SV model is 28,995.

You can't just calculate linearly using the credits and rebates. Some people don't earn enough for the federal one. Maybe they cheat on their taxes and don't have enough taxes due. Other people are looking to buy it and ship it to Korea, who knows.

Just my .02