expected battery longevity for 2012 Leaf SL with 20K miles?

I am considering buying a 2012 Leaf SL with 20K miles. I live in Tucson, AZ (up to 105-110 F in the summer), have covered parking -- how long can I reasonably expect to be able to use the original battery pack that came with the car? I only drive about 4,000 miles a year. Will the batteries last me until 2022 without needing to be replaced?

It's very likely that the pack will last that long. The issue is loss of capacity and range, not actual pack failure. If your daily driving needs can be met by, say, 30 miles' worth of range in a few years, you should be ok. The $64,000 question is: how many capacity bars (the tiny white ones next to the much larger fuel bars on the fuel "gauge") does the car have now? If it shows 12 or 11 you should be fine. 10 bars might have you seeing that 30 mile range sooner, but if that's all you need...

Would 2 back to back ultra-low mileage leases be significantly more expensive than a used low-mileage 2012SL that will be worth nothing in 6 years and may require repairs along the way?

Thanks for your input, Leftie.

I looked at some photos of the Leaf I'm considering buying -- I count 10 bars (8 white and 2 red at the bottom). Do you lose bars faster the more miles you drive? I know it depends on if you charge to 100% or 80%, driving conditions, etc, but do the battery packs generally last longer the less you use them?

evme said:

Thanks for your input, Leftie.

I looked at some photos of the Leaf I'm considering buying -- I count 10 bars (8 white and 2 red at the bottom). Do you lose bars faster the more miles you drive? I know it depends on if you charge to 100% or 80%, driving conditions, etc, but do the battery packs generally last longer the less you use them?

Click to expand...

Generally yes, however in AZ you should expect age-based degradation to dominate so you will still experience significant capacity loss even if you don't drive all that much.

evme said:

Thanks for your input, Leftie.

I looked at some photos of the Leaf I'm considering buying -- I count 10 bars (8 white and 2 red at the bottom). Do you lose bars faster the more miles you drive? I know it depends on if you charge to 100% or 80%, driving conditions, etc, but do the battery packs generally last longer the less you use them?

Click to expand...

If the car has 10 bars now, I'd pass on it - the 10th bar could be about to vanish, and a 9 bar pack isn't a great bet for even minimal range six hot years later. Look for a leaf showing at least 11 bars, preferably 12, and assume it has one less than is showing.
As for factors in capacity loss, the biggest is heat, followed by age, not mileage. Thus you would likely lose capacity just as fast as someone driving a lot in a slightly cooler region.

^^^
I tend to agree. I think the OP should aim for one of these:
- '13 w/all capacity bars w/a build month of maybe 4/2013 or later?
- a '15 (which has the "lizard" battery)
- an old Leaf that has had its battery replaced by a "lizard" battery under the capacity warranty

See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192 re: lizard battery and capacity warranty.

The summer heat and presumably high temps even well into the night will really badly degrade the battery, esp. that of an '11 or '12. A '13 on or after the above build month (we have no idea if there really is a cutoff or for sure a difference in batteries earlier in the '13 model year vs. later) might be a bit better.

For sure check Ahr, Hx and SOH stats via Leaf Spy first, to see if it makes sense vs. the # of capacity bars showing.

The summer heat and presumably high temps even well into the night will really badly degrade the battery, esp. that of an '11 or '12.

Click to expand...

Do they have hot nights in Arizona? I was under the impression that with low humidity, the temps drop fast after dark. In that case, charging late at night would go a long way towards slowing capacity loss. But yes, in places where it stays hot, or even just warm (70F or warmer, in my experience) at night, the pack can't cool off enough, and the heat does more harm.

If the car has 10 bars you will likely qualify for a brand new battery before the waranty expiration depending on when the cars in service date was. So if you want a car thats likely to get a brand new battery for free this may be the car for you. I had purchased a 2011 vehicle on 2/28/15 that was a 10 bar car and by Thanksgiving at the end of November it qualified for a new battery at 8 bars. PM (private message) me if you want to discuss this more. Contrary to what others have said you may have a like new car in less than a year when qualifying for a new battery for free. But expect that new battery to be degraded back down to 8 bars again by 2.3 years. At 8 bars expect that the car can only do a little over 40 miles at 45 miles per hour max.

evme said:

Thanks for your input, Leftie.

I looked at some photos of the Leaf I'm considering buying -- I count 10 bars (8 white and 2 red at the bottom). Do you lose bars faster the more miles you drive? I know it depends on if you charge to 100% or 80%, driving conditions, etc, but do the battery packs generally last longer the less you use them?

Click to expand...

Hi evme - you're looking at getting either the Leaf I just turned in from lease here in the Tucson area,, or one very similar (mine had 10 bars showing also, but was around 16k or 17 miles I think). You've received some good pointers here in this thread, but also I'll contact you offline in case you want to discuss further.

Also, some of the other members of the Tucson Electric Vehicle Association would be happy to give you an idea of what to look for:
http://www.tucsonelectricvehicle.org/contact.html

Alternatively, they usually have meetings once per month and sometimes there are people there like yourself who want to research things more before they buy.

http://www.tucsonelectricvehicle.org/meetings.html

LeftieBiker said:

The summer heat and presumably high temps even well into the night will really badly degrade the battery, esp. that of an '11 or '12.

Click to expand...

Do they have hot nights in Arizona? I was under the impression that with low humidity, the temps drop fast after dark. In that case, charging late at night would go a long way towards slowing capacity loss. But yes, in places where it stays hot, or even just warm (70F or warmer, in my experience) at night, the pack can't cool off enough, and the heat does more harm.

Click to expand...

I can’t speak for Tuscon, where the OP is, but I posted this re: very hot nights in Phoenix: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=306687&sid=94c0efe854985006a03ee5353b9aaba3#p306687.

When it’s at or past 100 F at 9 pm or 10 pm, that’s not my idea of temps “dropping fast after dark”.

Even if outside air temps drop “quickly” a few hours later, the battery has so much thermal mass that it’s highly unlikely to cool down very rapidly from the baking it got during the day and the 100 F temps at 9 or 10 pm.

I can understand it staying hot later in the "heat island" cities. I guess I was hoping that there was enough cold air after dark to quickly infiltrate them. On nights where it's hot here in the daytime, and doesn't cool off below 70 until after midnight, I can still charge on L-1 at that time, and have the pack slowly cool down.

cwerdna said:

For sure check Ahr, Hx and SOH stats via Leaf Spy first, to see if it makes sense vs. the # of capacity bars showing.

Click to expand...

Can an experienced with Leafspy please point out what we buyers should be looking for assuming we use the app to check out a used car? What are "acceptable/passing" scores for measured Ahriman, Hx and SOH?

Thanks much ...

PS ... A link to a used Leaf buying guide would be wonderful if it exists. I have LS installed on my Android tablet and have purchased a v1.5 BT dongle and the link wonderfully. The problem is in the interpretation of the data.

dud said:

A link to a used Leaf buying guide would be wonderful if it exists.

Click to expand...

There is one at https://www.facebook.com/notes/seattle-nissan-leaf-owners/a-guide-for-buying-a-used-leaf/1100737373291032.

I see one goof on that Facebook guide:

"The only way to accurately measure a used LEAF’s battery capacity is to bring it to a dealer or use the LeafSpy app for smart phones with a WiFi or Bluetooth device that plugs into the vehicle’s OBDII diagnostic port above the accelerator pedal."

Bring it to a dealer???

dud said:

Can an experienced with Leafspy please point out what we buyers should be looking for assuming we use the app to check out a used car? What are "acceptable/passing" scores for measured Ahriman, Hx and SOH?

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone besides the buyer can assess what is a "passing" score. That depends as much on YOUR needs and the sellin price as anything else. For instance, a brand-new LEAF with a perfectly healthy battery (no degradation) does not suit many people's needs, regardless of price.

RegGuheert said:

dud said:

Can an experienced with Leafspy please point out what we buyers should be looking for assuming we use the app to check out a used car? What are "acceptable/passing" scores for measured Ahriman, Hx and SOH?

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone besides the buyer can assess what is a "passing" score. That depends as much on YOUR needs and the sellin price as anything else. For instance, a brand-new LEAF with a perfectly healthy battery (no degradation) does not suit many people's needs, regardless of price.

Click to expand...

They may be asking for figures for when each bar is lost. The first bar is lost at about 85% SOH, or roughly 55 AH, correct? I don't have figures for the bars after that.

HI all:

- regarding how many bars generally lines up with how many aH, and such, I think this is a helpful link (you can sort by aH and get a sense of how many bars)

http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/leaf/vehicles.php

I'd say keep in mind that with the newer lizard battery cars, perhaps it will not follow the same rough numbers.

- regarding charging at night in the desert, I'm not sure about Phoenix. Tucson is a bit higher above sea level and a bit cooler (and where I had my car most of the time a bit cooler still, and a bit more rural, so perhaps not as much urban heat sink to worry about). There can be significant swings in temperature from day to night, especially in winter, but during the summer I think perhaps not quite as much. So, although I don't have the lowdown on Phoenix, for the areas I've been, I'd say there may be an element of truth on both sides - outside of the hotter months, one can sometimes find a cooler temp at night if one is trying to watch when one charges. However, during the hotter months, I'm not sure it is this easy.

not looking for a "passing" score ... what I was looking for is guidance as to how to interpret the LeafSpy results. I have installed the software and paired the HW but have failed to (yet) master a good understanding of what the numbers actually mean to the user and how they can be used to make an informed buying decision.

dud said:

not looking for a "passing" score ...

Click to expand...

It's probably best not to ask for one, then:

dud said:

What are "acceptable/passing" scores for measured Ahriman, Hx and SOH?

Click to expand...

We own a MY2011 with about 31,000 miles showing 52.0 Ah. At this level of remaining capacity, we typically do not attempt 70-mile trips in wintertime. If it is below 25F, we limit our trips to below 60 miles. If below 10F and windy, we keep our trips below about 40 miles. And that is with a preheated cabin.

Simply put, the the consequences of a dead battery in such low temperatures could be rather severe.