MPGe Cost Calculator ( Gas cost vs Electric cost )

I discovered MPGe was a little misleading about a week and a half ago while I was digging through this forum and the Chevy Volt forum after test driving a Nissan Leaf. I was so surprised by this, I did a bunch of math to figure out what MPGe really means, then translated that math into a website where everyone can do MPGe Cost comparisons for free. Check it out:

http://www.mpgecost.com

All you need to know to use the calculator is your current cost of electricity per kwh ( I have EPB/TVA electric, so that's 10 cents per kwh for me ), the cost of gas in your area ( currently 1.89 in my neck of the woods ), and the MPGe of your electric vehicle. ( I think the 2016 Nissan Leaf is 126 city or 101 hwy, so take your pick for where you're driving it )

To get a feel for how this works, here's a screenshot from the calculator using the Chevy Volt's 42 MPG gas vs the Nissan Leaf's city MPGe:


I'm really not trying to start a flame war or anything with Volt vs Leaf. I swear. These just happen to be the two vehicles I was looking at when I started doing these calculations. I think the numbers are interesting.

Hope someone finds this useful or interesting. Electric is still more cost effective per mile than gas, even at today's prices, but the difference isn't quite as large as I thought, if you own a hybrid. Of course, use a more traditional gas vehicle's 18 MPG or use higher gas prices and the winner becomes more black and white. Enjoy!

--
Jesse

The calculator has no fields for efficiency for the electric, such as kilowatt hours per mile, etc. So I would take the output of the calculator with a big heaping of salt. For example, that same drive in my Leaf could be done for $0.93 @ 10 cents per kilowatt hour rates; which is quite a bit less than what the calculator shows.

knightmb said:

The calculator has no fields for efficiency for the electric, such as kilowatt hours per mile, etc. So I would take the output of the calculator with a big heaping of salt. For example, that same drive in my Leaf could be done for $0.93 @ 10 cents per kilowatt hour rates; which is quite a bit less than what the calculator shows.

Click to expand...

Absolutely. It's as much of an estimate as MPGe itself. Might be useful info for people like me who are considering a purchase though.

The only issue that myself and others like to "gripe" about is that is doesn't really make sense when comparing to a gas car. Electric vehicles don't have a gas tank, so a sticker that reads "126 MPGe" just means that if the Leaf had the same energy storage as one gallon of gas, it could in theory drive 126 miles. But it doesn't! That would be like putting a sticker on a gas car that reads "1000 MPG3" when it means the gas car can drive 1000 miles on 3 tanks of gas. It's just a weird numbers game to get the highest number to look impressive.

A sticker that reads "84 miles per charge" must not be as impressive as "126 MPGe" :lol:

You'll notice that the 24 kW/h Leaf has 126 MPGe, but the 30 kW/h Leaf has 124 MPGe due to the increase in weight for the bigger capacity battery, yet the 30 kW/h Leaf would get 107 miles per charge vs. 84 miles per charge. The numbers seem counter-intuitive to the average consumer.

knightmb said:

The only issue that myself and others like to "gripe" about is that is doesn't really make sense when comparing to a gas car. Electric vehicles don't have a gas tank, so a sticker that reads "126 MPGe" just means that if the Leaf had the same energy storage as one gallon of gas, it could in theory drive 126 miles. But it doesn't! That would be like putting a sticker on a gas car that reads "1000 MPG3" when it means the gas car can drive 1000 miles on 3 tanks of gas. It's just a weird numbers game to get the highest number to look impressive.

A sticker that reads "84 miles per charge" must not be as impressive as "126 MPGe" :lol:

You'll notice that the 24 kW/h Leaf has 126 MPGe, but the 30 kW/h Leaf has 124 MPGe due to the increase in weight for the bigger capacity battery, yet the 30 kW/h Leaf would get 107 miles per charge vs. 84 miles per charge. The numbers seem counter-intuitive to the average consumer.

Click to expand...

The one thing that is nice about MPGe is that it works for all fuel types. I agree the number is misleading, which is why I created this calculator. I think most people think of gas MPG in terms of cost, not range. The problem I have with MPGe is that it misleads the uninformed to believe 106 MPGe is somehow twice as much as 42 MPG, when it most definitely is not. Bringing the cost element into the equation helps make a meaningless number meaningful to me.

It's interesting that you talk about range so much. MPGe has nothing to do with range. I get it, since electric vehicles tend to be range limited, but it's odd that you would gripe about MPGe by talking about range. They're not intended to be related, and they're not.

All the issues with these calculators that attempt to compare an equivalent fuel cost, etc. also don't account for other factors in the cost to maintain and repair. I was recently at a dealer with my son's car and felt sorry for another car owner when the service advisor advised that they needed a bunch of engine sensors, the manifold needed to be pulled due to excessive carbon build-up as well as spark plugs were shot (he came in due to a check engine light) ... it was his wife's car that was driven on a lot of short trips and the repair tab would easily run into hundreds of bucks. The LEAF would need NONE of this, and laughs at short trips! EV's have zero warm up time ... now, the one bug a boo here though is the typical highest cost item with cars is depreciation and that can kill lots of the savings, unless you keep it until it's just scrap value. Also, I've noticed as well as other LEAF owners that they may get hit with higher insurance rates due to high repair costs ... trying to make 'fair' comparisons can get quite complex

I agree with the OP's attempt to show "fuel" cost comparison between EV and ICE vehicles, as this is often how I relate the issue to ICE drivers when I talk to them about my Leaf. The screen shot showed a Volt (using the ICE) getting 42 mpg so at $1.89 / gallon current cost it costs $1.89 to move the Volt 42 miles (naturally). But as another pointed out, the comparison to the Leaf is missing a driving efficiency number. I average 4.3 miles / kWh but to make the math easy let's use 4.2 m/kWh. That way it takes exactly 10 kWh to move the Leaf 42 miles, and at the stated $0.10 / kWh cost that means it costs $1.00 to move the Leaf 42 miles vs the $1.89 to move the Volt 42 miles using its ICE. And 42 mpg is quite good, so even with currently cheap gas and a very fuel efficient engine, the EV is much cheaper to fuel.

redLEAF said:

All the issues with these calculators that attempt to compare an equivalent fuel cost, etc. also don't account for other factors in the cost to maintain and repair. I was recently at a dealer with my son's car and felt sorry for another car owner when the service advisor advised that they needed a bunch of engine sensors, the manifold needed to be pulled due to excessive carbon build-up as well as spark plugs were shot (he came in due to a check engine light) ... it was his wife's car that was driven on a lot of short trips and the repair tab would easily run into hundreds of bucks. The LEAF would need NONE of this, and laughs at short trips! EV's have zero warm up time ... now, the one bug a boo here though is the typical highest cost item with cars is depreciation and that can kill lots of the savings, unless you keep it until it's just scrap value. Also, I've noticed as well as other LEAF owners that they may get hit with higher insurance rates due to high repair costs ... trying to make 'fair' comparisons can get quite complex

Click to expand...

While I agree with this, mostly, I'm not convinced the Leaf is cheaper to maintain. I think that depends a lot on climate and what you consider to be the end of the vehicle's usable life span. My research indicates there are major problems with the Leaf battery in hot climates.

Usually I drive my ICE vehicles until the transmissions break down. I do all of my own maintenance before that (except oil changes), and that maintenance usually includes sensors and minor mechanical repair (alternators, water pumps, starters, stuff like that). Most of my ICE vehicles last to about 150k before needing something major, like a rebuilt transmission.

From what I've read here, the Leaf seems to suffer from pretty severe battery capacity losses by 70k. So by 140k, you've probably gone through a battery or three. You get the first one free, but the other two are out of pocket and cost about as much as an ICE transmission. So, eh... the Leaf seems more expensive to me, all around, than an economy ICE vehicle, like a bare bones Ford Fiesta. More expensive up front and more expensive to maintain long term. What you get for your trouble is an awesomely quiet ride and higher efficiency due to regen and other electric drivetrain bonuses.

Now, I fully expect those maintenance costs to change in the future. Battery prices will come down and battery capacity and durability will (hopefully) go up.

I guess that's why I made the MPGe Cost calculator. Fuel Cost changes are shorter term and easier for everyone to understand than long term trends and predictions like battery cost and maintenance costs. Everyone knows the price of gas goes up and down, so I thought it would be more important to talk about the cost of electricity vs gas and what that might mean to a driver, because that's the cost he/she deals with on a daily basis.

createthis said:

The one thing that is nice about MPGe is that it works for all fuel types. I agree the number is misleading, which is why I created this calculator. I think most people think of gas MPG in terms of cost, not range. The problem I have with MPGe is that it misleads the uninformed to believe 106 MPGe is somehow twice as much as 42 MPG, when it most definitely is not. Bringing the cost element into the equation helps make a meaningless number meaningful to me.

It's interesting that you talk about range so much. MPGe has nothing to do with range. I get it, since electric vehicles tend to be range limited, but it's odd that you would gripe about MPGe by talking about range. They're not intended to be related, and they're not.

Click to expand...

My apologies, the gripe isn't about the calculator, just how dealership present the information to potential buyers. I helped my parents purchase a Leaf this week. The first thing they asked when they saw the sticker was "Is this how far it will drive?" when reading the MPGe. The sales guy said no, pointed out that the range was listed in smaller print in the corner. Next question "Why is it on there then?". Again, the sales guy response was that is shows how the Leaf compares to the gas vehicles in familiar terms of miles per gallon. The response from my parents is probably the typical response from any non-technical person "That doesn't make any sense, why list irrelevant information in big numbers if it has nothing to do with the actual range?".

This is the problem I see with MPGe, it is not really relevant to range. But because it is basically an abbreviation of "Miles Per Gallon Equivalent" then it falsely leads people to think of range because miles is a measure of distance after all.

createthis said:

While I agree with this, mostly, I'm not convinced the Leaf is cheaper to maintain. I think that depends a lot on climate and what you consider to be the end of the vehicle's usable life span. My research indicates there are major problems with the Leaf battery in hot climates.

Click to expand...

Well, cheaper to maintain is pretty broad. To convince you it is cheaper, I would just compare it to another new vehicle that is gas powered and list out the maintenance schedule to expect.

If you buy a new Nissan Leaf and just a regular but reliable gas burner, say a Toyota Corolla. The Corolla gas mileage is rated for 28 mpg City/ 37 mpg Hwy. I'll use the Leaf S with the 24 kW/h battery (ignoring the 30 kW/h that is available now).

Now, for the first year, both brand new cars and drivers that are very safe and easy on the vehicles. The first year, for both vehicles, there are no recalls, no issues with anything. Both are running in top shape and both are going to average 13,000 miles for that first year. Let's start with the maintenance that needs to be done regardless of the perfect shape of both vehicles. Let's also make each driver for each vehicle an automotive guru that can do a lot of the maintenance to save money (only need to buy the parts or supplies to do the maintenance)

First Year:
The Leaf will need a battery check at the dealership. It's free, but it does take an hour out of your day. According to the Leaf maintenance schedule, the only thing to do in the first 15,000 miles are to Rotate tires (after 15k?, should be a little earlier), Replace brake fluid (LOL why?), Replace in-cabin micro-filter. So, for sanity sake, our drivers are also smart. The Leaf driver gets online and after a little research, realizes that replacing the brake fluid is not necessary and the cabin micro-filter is more of an "as needed" replacement if there are actual problems with airflow in the vents. So this Leaf driver basically ignores the schedule for the first 15,000 miles.

The Corolla owner reads the service manual and the first thing this driver must be easy about is the break in period of the engine. For the first 1,000 miles, the engine has a break in period in which long trips and high RPM are discouraged as it could damage the life of the engine. The service manual also says that the first oil charge should be right after break in to help get the metal shavings and particles that can accumulate from manufacturing of the engine. The Corolla owner does everything and buys his/her own motor oil, oil filter for that first change at 1,000 miles. The Corolla manual also has some schedule items such as replacing the cabin air-filter, etc. The driver is also smart, checks online; ignores this, another ploy to get him/her to the dealership to spend money.

The Corolla owner buys the cheapest motor oil, some discount Super Tech from Wal-mart for $10, then the cheapest oil filter, $5 Motor Craft oil filter. $15 for the first oil change, not bad. The next oil change is at 5,000 miles, again new vehicle, good for after the engine break in period. So the Corolla owner does another oil and filter change, another $15. At 7,500 miles, the Corolla owner does an air filter change for the engine (not cabin) to help keep the MPG good. Great luck, Walmart sells a Fram air filter for only $5, great! So far that year, only (15+15+5) $35 in vehicle maintenance, easy peasy. At 10,000 miles, another oil change. No sweat, another $15 for the oil change, only spent $50 on maintenance so far.

By 13,000 miles, getting close to another oil+filter change and engine air filter change, but the driver doesn't worry about it just yet, only the first year of vehicle driving has passed so far.

So the Corolla owner is only out $50 for maintenance that year. Provided of course you do all the maintenance yourself, you buy the cheapest oil and parts, and you already have the tools to do the maintenance (oil recycling collection, wrenches, tools, etc.). Even with this extreme example of a car guru buying the cheapest stuff to save money, it can cost more if you have to pay a shop to do the same thing. Even more if you want to use higher quality supplies.

Point being, a brand new gas vehicle with years of engine life ahead is still going to cost more than a Leaf to maintain; you can't ignore oil, gas, component, and filter changes for gas vehicles without causing even more expensive repairs in the future.

knightmb said:

My apologies, the gripe isn't about the calculator, just how dealership present the information to potential buyers. I helped my parents purchase a Leaf this week. The first thing they asked when they saw the sticker was "Is this how far it will drive?" when reading the MPGe. The sales guy said no, pointed out that the range was listed in smaller print in the corner. Next question "Why is it on there then?". Again, the sales guy response was that is shows how the Leaf compares to the gas vehicles in familiar terms of miles per gallon. The response from my parents is probably the typical response from any non-technical person "That doesn't make any sense, why list irrelevant information in big numbers if it has nothing to do with the actual range?".

This is the problem I see with MPGe, it is not really relevant to range. But because it is basically an abbreviation of "Miles Per Gallon Equivalent" then it falsely leads people to think of range because miles is a measure of distance after all.

Click to expand...

"Why is it on there then?" Did the sales person explain why it was on there? You seem to be saying that not only do average people not understand MPGe, but they also don't understand MPG. That's definitely interesting. I'm not sure I believe it, though, because MPG has been listed at the top of every EPA sticker since I've been visiting dealerships. Trip computers that list MPG as you drive have also become fairly common in the last decade. Surely people know what MPG is. Maybe I'm in denial.

knightmb said:

Well, cheaper to maintain is pretty broad. To convince you it is cheaper, I would just compare it to another new vehicle that is gas powered and list out the maintenance schedule to expect.

Click to expand...

I've read this argument before. I think you're confusing cost of maintenance over the life of a vehicle with frequency of maintenance. Yes, ICE vehicles require more frequent maintenance, but those items are in the tens of dollars, not hundreds or thousands. I'm convinced ICE vehicles are cheaper in every way except fuel costs over the life of the vehicle. I don't think it'll be that way forever, and I look forward to the time when it is not, but I think that's the state of the art at the moment.

createthis said:

knightmb said:

My apologies, the gripe isn't about the calculator, just how dealership present the information to potential buyers. I helped my parents purchase a Leaf this week. The first thing they asked when they saw the sticker was "Is this how far it will drive?" when reading the MPGe. The sales guy said no, pointed out that the range was listed in smaller print in the corner. Next question "Why is it on there then?". Again, the sales guy response was that is shows how the Leaf compares to the gas vehicles in familiar terms of miles per gallon. The response from my parents is probably the typical response from any non-technical person "That doesn't make any sense, why list irrelevant information in big numbers if it has nothing to do with the actual range?".

This is the problem I see with MPGe, it is not really relevant to range. But because it is basically an abbreviation of "Miles Per Gallon Equivalent" then it falsely leads people to think of range because miles is a measure of distance after all.

Click to expand...

"Why is it on there then?" Did the sales person explain why it was on there? You seem to be saying that not only do average people not understand MPGe, but they also don't understand MPG. That's definitely interesting. I'm not sure I believe it, though, because MPG has been listed at the top of every EPA sticker since I've been visiting dealerships. Trip computers that list MPG as you drive have also become fairly common in the last decade. Surely people know what MPG is. Maybe I'm in denial.

Click to expand...

You'd be lucky to find people who grasp the functioning of a light switch never mind the bulb!

Science is in a scary stat in terms of the general population being educated in it! Watching winter drivers you can fast spot the ones who miserably failed physics, So I'd find little surprise that they wouldn't grasp how dealers and generator makers are screwing them side ways with fake numbers.

createthis said:

knightmb said:

Well, cheaper to maintain is pretty broad. To convince you it is cheaper, I would just compare it to another new vehicle that is gas powered and list out the maintenance schedule to expect.

Click to expand...

I've read this argument before. I think you're confusing cost of maintenance over the life of a vehicle with frequency of maintenance. Yes, ICE vehicles require more frequent maintenance, but those items are in the tens of dollars, not hundreds or thousands. I'm convinced ICE vehicles are cheaper in every way except fuel costs over the life of the vehicle. I don't think it'll be that way forever, and I look forward to the time when it is not, but I think that's the state of the art at the moment.

Click to expand...

As some one who works on vehicles, add up all those nickle n dime items! a death of a thousand cuts, doesn't seem like much till you stand back and see the larger picture.

Then you have to look at the mtbf (Mean time between failures) it generally just goes down steadily with an ICE ie longer it runs the more often things will fail! This does not hold true with an electrical system, things generally just keep working

Then you have to add in the oil changes, filters, air filter, trans filter/ lube, shaft seals, bearings, ignition system issues, so on.

Electric vehicle the number drops massively in small things that add up to huge dollars over the life of the vehicle. The one real cyclic cost is the battery (Traction pack) but you can skirt the issue to some degree in theory by just buying a salvage leaf and tossing in its pack, may not be brand new but frankly any one with a reasonable mind won't care so long as the pack is in good health (This will depend on the donor leaf!)

In short, providing it meets your needs the electric flat out slaughters the ICE in terms of life cycle costs, fuel savings, maintenance savings, this translates to more time just driving.

You need to stand way way back and look at the whole picture, never get caught up in just 2 dimensions of it.

XeonPony said:

As some one who works on vehicles, add up all those nickle n dime items! a death of a thousand cuts, doesn't seem like much till you stand back and see the larger picture.

[...]

You need to stand way way back and look at the whole picture, never get caught up in just 2 dimensions of it.

Click to expand...

Do you have real numbers added up? A case study? I'd just have to see it to change my opinion. Like I said, I do my own maintenance, I don't think I spend more than $300 per year on ICE related issues between 20k and 100k miles. That's what... 5 years? $1500. There is a reason many ICE vehicles come with a 100k powertrain warranty.

Those are estimates based on previous experience, but that's what my opinion is based on. Most ICE vehicles require very little maintenance between 20k and 100k miles. Just oil changes. After 100k, it's a different story, but I don't have numbers to see exactly how different. Just, blech, feelings.

I will concede that if you don't do your own maintenance, electrics are probably cheaper to maintain. I hadn't really put much thought into that before.

createthis said:

... Usually I drive my ICE vehicles until the transmissions break down. I do all of my own maintenance before that (except oil changes), and that maintenance usually includes sensors and minor mechanical repair (alternators, water pumps, starters, stuff like that). Most of my ICE vehicles last to about 150k before needing something major, like a rebuilt transmission.

From what I've read here, the Leaf seems to suffer from pretty severe battery capacity losses by 70k. So by 140k, you've probably gone through a battery or three. You get the first one free, but the other two are out of pocket and cost about as much as an ICE transmission. So, eh... the Leaf seems more expensive to me, all around, than an economy ICE vehicle, like a bare bones Ford Fiesta. More expensive up front and more expensive to maintain long term. What you get for your trouble is an awesomely quiet ride and higher efficiency due to regen and other electric drivetrain bonuses.
...

Click to expand...

But only a small % of LEAF drivers will get the first pack free.
Yes in hot areas a large % will.
But on US overall it may be one in three or one in four.

I doubt many LEAF get to 150,000 miles.
Only works for those with short neighborhood range needs.

Yes you can replace packs.

But then cost per mile will be 3 cents for electricity and 12 cents for battery replacements.
The same 15 cents per mile that is typical for ICE gas and maintenance.

Looking at cost per mile is much more sane way to compare vehicles.
MPGe is just stupid and creates confusion.

TimLee said:

But only a small % of LEAF drivers will get the first pack free.
Yes in hot areas a large % will.
But on US overall it may be one in three or one in four.

I doubt many LEAF get to 150,000 miles.
Only works for those with short neighborhood range needs.

Yes you can replace packs.

But then cost per mile will be 3 cents for electricity and 12 cents for battery replacements.
The same 15 cents per mile that is typical for ICE gas and maintenance.

Looking at cost per mile is much more sane way to compare vehicles.
MPGe is just stupid and creates confusion.

Click to expand...

We live in the same town. Ha. Well, hopefully http://mpgecost.com calculator makes it less confusing by providing an estimated cost per MPGe. I like that it can be applied to Ethanol and Hydrogen vehicles too. I watched a documentary on Netflix and learned Brazil runs all of it's vehicles on Ethanol. Seems like a pretty smart alternative to Electric vehicles if range is an issue.

createthis said:

XeonPony said:

As some one who works on vehicles, add up all those nickle n dime items! a death of a thousand cuts, doesn't seem like much till you stand back and see the larger picture.

[...]

You need to stand way way back and look at the whole picture, never get caught up in just 2 dimensions of it.

Click to expand...

Do you have real numbers added up? A case study? I'd just have to see it to change my opinion. Like I said, I do my own maintenance, I don't think I spend more than $300 per year on ICE related issues between 20k and 100k miles. That's what... 5 years? $1500. There is a reason many ICE vehicles come with a 100k powertrain warranty.

Those are estimates based on previous experience, but that's what my opinion is based on. Most ICE vehicles require very little maintenance between 20k and 100k miles. Just oil changes. After 100k, it's a different story, but I don't have numbers to see exactly how different. Just, blech, feelings.

I will concede that if you don't do your own maintenance, electrics are probably cheaper to maintain. I hadn't really put much thought into that before.

Click to expand...

Well I actually keep vehicles till they fall apart. at 330Km needed to rebuild the entire DC power system under the hood, and redo the starter.

So far from those who have driven their leafs hard they have had shockingly little to no issues with them. Diesels share a fair bit in common to the electrical car, they rarely fail, but when they do it is pricy, which the fact they rarely fail makes up for the higher repair costs over the long run. (FYI This only applies to the real diesels befor they added a bunch of garbage to them defeating the whole concept of the diesel engine!)

createthis said:

knightmb said:

My apologies, the gripe isn't about the calculator, just how dealership present the information to potential buyers. I helped my parents purchase a Leaf this week. The first thing they asked when they saw the sticker was "Is this how far it will drive?" when reading the MPGe. The sales guy said no, pointed out that the range was listed in smaller print in the corner. Next question "Why is it on there then?". Again, the sales guy response was that is shows how the Leaf compares to the gas vehicles in familiar terms of miles per gallon. The response from my parents is probably the typical response from any non-technical person "That doesn't make any sense, why list irrelevant information in big numbers if it has nothing to do with the actual range?".

This is the problem I see with MPGe, it is not really relevant to range. But because it is basically an abbreviation of "Miles Per Gallon Equivalent" then it falsely leads people to think of range because miles is a measure of distance after all.

Click to expand...

"Why is it on there then?" Did the sales person explain why it was on there? You seem to be saying that not only do average people not understand MPGe, but they also don't understand MPG. That's definitely interesting. I'm not sure I believe it, though, because MPG has been listed at the top of every EPA sticker since I've been visiting dealerships. Trip computers that list MPG as you drive have also become fairly common in the last decade. Surely people know what MPG is. Maybe I'm in denial.

Click to expand...

The avg person does not understand MPG and it's pretty obvious with the law suits that we've seen over the hybrid fuel economy. I've read a few articles that has talked about changing MPG to a Gal/mile or something similar. In Canada we use a L/100km which does the same thing.

If someone buys a 50mpg car and they only get 40mpg they get pissed off. They feel the company is ripping them off, how dare them. They posted false info. It doesn't matter that some other people do get 50mpg, and that they themselves did it once. If they aren't getting it and many other people aren't they sue. There have been many lawsuits over this. They are missing a whole 10mpg. 10 is a big number, it's too much to be a error or a YMMV. It's not right that it's 10. However what does it really mean? If they drive 15k miles a year it's 375gal vs 300gal of gas. They have been wronged out of $150 at $2/gal gas prices. How dare that company? So they sue them. However countless people out there buy full size pick ups and SUVs at 15 mpg and drive them hard and only get 12 mpg. No one bats an eye, no one complains. They are only off by 3mpg, they weren't ripped off, they have had times that they drove a long highway trip with no cargo for a full tank and actually got 15.5mpg so they don't feel ripped off. However what has it cost them? For 15k miles a year..... they spent $500 more on fuel, over 3 times as much cost to them than the hybrid driver who's up in arms about fraud and contacting lawyers and spreading bad word of mouth on the internet because they were denied 10.

createthis said:

knightmb said:

Well, cheaper to maintain is pretty broad. To convince you it is cheaper, I would just compare it to another new vehicle that is gas powered and list out the maintenance schedule to expect.

Click to expand...

I've read this argument before. I think you're confusing cost of maintenance over the life of a vehicle with frequency of maintenance. Yes, ICE vehicles require more frequent maintenance, but those items are in the tens of dollars, not hundreds or thousands. I'm convinced ICE vehicles are cheaper in every way except fuel costs over the life of the vehicle. I don't think it'll be that way forever, and I look forward to the time when it is not, but I think that's the state of the art at the moment.

Click to expand...

BEV maintenance isn't tied to millage and time the way it is in an ICE so you can't say that these apply to everyone. You mentioned you drive a lot so the numbers are true for you and people like you. For people who drive less than 20 miles a day it's a completely different story. They should be buying up all the used out of warrantee 60-70% capacity leafs but they don't because they spend so little on gas and they know so little about the technology.

For those types of people an oil change is X millage and Y time. 20 miles a day for a commute driver puts them around 5000 miles per year. Even though that's a standard oil change interval most shops will recommend it every six months. So they're now paying double based on time what you pay on millage. There is a strong chance that a '13+ battery will take 10+ years to come close to degrading to the point that they can't make their drive every day with comfort. For many parts of the world even the '11-'12 battery could last them that long. The only problem they have to worry about with batteries is a bad cell needing to be replaced. In that case they don't need to spend $5500 to replace a pack they need a replacement cell. It is also better for them to get a used cell that is close to the others so it's better to do the cheaper option and repair with a used part instead of a new part.

minispeed said:

BEV maintenance isn't tied to millage and time the way it is in an ICE so you can't say that these apply to everyone. You mentioned you drive a lot so the numbers are true for you and people like you. For people who drive less than 20 miles a day it's a completely different story. They should be buying up all the used out of warrantee 60-70% capacity leafs but they don't because they spend so little on gas and they know so little about the technology.

For those types of people an oil change is X millage and Y time. 20 miles a day for a commute driver puts them around 5000 miles per year. Even though that's a standard oil change interval most shops will recommend it every six months. So they're now paying double based on time what you pay on millage. There is a strong chance that a '13+ battery will take 10+ years to come close to degrading to the point that they can't make their drive every day with comfort. For many parts of the world even the '11-'12 battery could last them that long. The only problem they have to worry about with batteries is a bad cell needing to be replaced. In that case they don't need to spend $5500 to replace a pack they need a replacement cell. It is also better for them to get a used cell that is close to the others so it's better to do the cheaper option and repair with a used part instead of a new part.

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That's an interesting argument, and it's really why I started looking at the Leaf. I used to drive a lot, but for the last 3 years I've been working from home. I drive my 1971 carbureted vehicle so little I have to put a solar panel on the hood to charge the battery in the winter, or it tends to die. My partner drives our Ford Flex a lot though, so I'm still in touch with the wonderful world of vehicle depreciation and maintenance.

I've read the reverse is true though. The majority of Leaf owners do drive a lot. The Leaf actually appeals to people who drive a lot more than people who drive very little because the up front cost of the leaf is fairly high. People tend to see the fuel cost savings as the primary advantage. Here's where I read that (blog of someone on this site, I believe): http://jpwhitenissanleaf.com/2015/01/10/60000-miles-and-counting/