Level 2 Charger Question

greengate · Feb 7, 2013

Please bear with me as I am trying to educate myself and I find the information as well as the replies posted here to be most informative and respectful.

My 2013 Leaf would be used as an around town car..probably putting on no more that 20 miles a day. Maybe 30 on occasion.

While I have 220 volt, 30 amp service in my unattached garage, (150 feet from the main 200 amp circuit breaker box,) I read that for Level 2 ..40 amp service is required. Might 30 amp be enough if there is nothing else drawing from the line while the Leaf is on a Level 2 charge? Just curious as I don't see that I would even need this Level 2 given the few miles I would drive during a 6 hour period in the 24 hour cycle..leaving 18 hours for a 110 volt recharge.

Which brings me to the next question. Is it better to refill the battery when it is nearly empty, or to refill it when ever possible..and to what capacity 80% only unless one needed to "top it off" for an extended trip? I would assume the refill charger is automatically programed to stop at 80% and to go beyond that would require an intervention on my part.

(If I were to look for a used Level 2 charger, what would be appropriate for the 2013 Leaf or even an earlier Leaf should that be the case.)

EVDRIVER · Feb 7, 2013

greengate said:
Please bear with me as I am trying to educate myself and I find the information as well as the replies posted here to be most informative and respectful.

My 2013 Leaf would be used as an around town car..probably putting on no more that 20 miles a day. Maybe 30 on occasion.

While I have 220 volt, 30 amp service in my unattached garage, (150 feet from the main 200 amp circuit breaker box,) I read that for Level 2 ..40 amp service is required. Might 30 amp be enough if there is nothing else drawing from the line while the Leaf is on a Level 2 charge? Just curious as I don't see that I would even need this Level 2 given the few miles I would drive during a 6 hour period in the 24 hour cycle..leaving 18 hours for a 110 volt recharge.

Which brings me to the next question. Is it better to refill the battery when it is nearly empty, or to refill it when ever possible..and to what capacity 80% only unless one needed to "top it off" for an extended trip? I would assume the refill charger is automatically programed to stop at 80% and to go beyond that would require an intervention on my part.

(If I were to look for a used Level 2 charger, what would be appropriate for the 2013 Leaf or even an earlier Leaf should that be the case.)

You can get your 2013 EVSE upgraded at http://www.evseupgrade.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and they will be offering a higher power option for the 2013 that will work with the included Nissan EVSE and work on your 30A service. This will be a higher power option for the 6kw 2013 charger. Regardless, for your needs the 3.8kw upgrade will be adequate for you at $287 and only needs a 20A circuit.

RegGuheert · Feb 7, 2013

Buy one of these and plug it into your 240V outlet: EVSEupgrade. I wouldn't upgrade the 2013 EVSE, but rather I would purchase one of the 2012 ones already upgraded.

Nubo · Feb 7, 2013

Unless you program the timers, the car will begin charging as soon as you connect the plug, and continue to 100%.

80% is considered the "long life" mode, and you can program a timer for each day, specifying either 100% or 80% charge. You can always override the timer with a button-press in the car, or via smartphone app, or via the online owner's portal.

As for the L2 EVSE in your garage, no 40 amps is not required; it depends on the equipment. I have a Leviton that is limited to 16amp charging, and so only requires a 20 amp circuit.

That being said, any L2 EVSE should be on its own, dedicated circuit. It's not enough to say "I won't use any other device while the car is charging". An electrician might be able install a sub-panel in the garage giving you a 20-amp breaker for the EVSE but that would only leave 10amp for everything else. (edit: well, actually I guess you could have 2 10-amp circuits...)

Also, 150 feet is a long run of wire. I'd definitely discuss with an electrician to make sure the wiring is up to snuff for your use. It could make more sense to pull heavier wire to the garage, which would enable more options, perhaps even a 32A L2 which could take advantage of the 2013 faster charging rate.

As for the L1, I do remember reading that the 2013 L1 brick is intended for emergency use, and may be restricted to a limited number of cycles....

EVDRIVER · Feb 7, 2013

Nubo said:
As for the L1, I do remember reading that the 2013 L1 brick is intended for emergency use, and may be restricted to a limited number of cycles....

This is not correct.

Nubo · Feb 7, 2013

EVDRIVER said:
Nubo said:

As for the L1, I do remember reading that the 2013 L1 brick is intended for emergency use, and may be restricted to a limited number of cycles....

Click to expand...

This is not correct.

No, that's entirely correct. I do remember reading it. Now whether or not it turned out to be true is another story.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=258426#p258426" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reddy · Feb 7, 2013

greengate said:
Please bear with me as I am trying to educate myself and I find the information as well as the replies posted here to be most informative and respectful.Ask and you shall receive

My 2013 Leaf would be used as an around town car..probably putting on no more that 20 miles a day. Maybe 30 on occasion.
Easy, even in winter. You won't need to worry about it. Treat the battery nice and it will last 10+ years.

While I have 220 volt, 30 amp service in my unattached garage, (150 feet from the main 200 amp circuit breaker box,) I read that for Level 2 ..40 amp service is required. Might 30 amp be enough if there is nothing else drawing from the line while the Leaf is on a Level 2 charge? Just curious as I don't see that I would even need this Level 2 given the few miles I would drive during a 6 hour period in the 24 hour cycle..leaving 18 hours for a 110 volt recharge.You can easily use L1 that comes with the car on a dedicated 15 amp 120 V circuit. Using the 240 V is a bonus. See below.

Which brings me to the next question. Is it better to refill the battery when it is nearly empty, or to refill it when ever possible..and to what capacity 80% only unless one needed to "top it off" for an extended trip? I would assume the refill charger is automatically programed to stop at 80% and to go beyond that would require an intervention on my part.Best to keep the battery near 40-50%. With your low miles, you should set the timer to charge a couple of hours each night, matching your expected drive. For my 8 mi RT, I charge about 1-2 hr/night in summer, 2-3 hr/night winter, and then override when I expect some extra driving.

(If I were to look for a used Level 2 charger, what would be appropriate for the 2013 Leaf or even an earlier Leaf should that be the case.)I'll let others respond.

ERG4ALL · Feb 7, 2013

My experience in talking with Nissan Corporate is that they discourage the L1 method of charging due to the length of time involved and it is not good PR to say that your LEAF requires over 12 hours to reach 80%. They recommend the L2 because it takes much less time to charge. This is especially true when the competition (i.e. Ford) has specifically said in their advertising that the Ford Fusion EV "charges in half the time of the LEAF"using an L2. Nissan indicated that there was no damage by using just the trickle charger (L1).

I've been tracking the LEAF for nearly 2-1/2 years and have been driving one for almost two years. I happened to be building the garage that the LEAF is stored in at the time I first became interested in the LEAF. The initial requirements were that you install a 30A 240V circuit for the home charging L2 station. As it got closer to launch and the Ford's plans became more apparent, the specs were changed to 40A 240V. Fortunately, I hadn't put up the drywall yet so I took out the 10 ga. wire and put in 8 ga. with a 40A 240V breaker. Even the 30A circuit, is way overkill for a 2011 LEAF's 3.3 kW (i.e. 13.75A @ 240V) charger. However, now that we know that the new LEAF's can have a 6.6 kW charger (i.e. 27.5A) that gets a little tight with only a 30A circuit depending on other factors like length of wire. Thus, the 30A could be fine if you always stick with the 3.3 kW charger.

However, as these things progress it wouldn't surprise me if we see an even larger on-board charger. As we see now with the different levels of LEAF you can get the 3.3 kW charger in the stripped-down model and the 6.6 kW in the higher models. Thus, depending on the individuals circumstances we may even see higher kW optional chargers in the future. I for one have a 50A 240V circuit that I use for a large stick welder. With the right match of plug to receptacle I could see a 10 kW charger as a possibility.

adric22 · Feb 7, 2013

greengate said:
While I have 220 volt, 30 amp service in my unattached garage, (150 feet from the main 200 amp circuit breaker box,) I read that for Level 2 ..40 amp service is required. Might 30 amp be enough if there is nothing else drawing from the line while the Leaf is on a Level 2 charge? Just curious as I don't see that I would even need this Level 2 given the few miles I would drive during a 6 hour period in the 24 hour cycle..leaving 18 hours for a 110 volt recharge.

It should be noted that if the Leaf is the only vehicle that will be using the circuit, it will never exceed 30 amps anyway. But it would be best to get an EVSE that is rated for 30 just to future-proof it.

I charge my leaf using Level-1 every day. I put about 15 miles on the car each day and thus it usually takes 3 hours or so for a full recharge back to 80% where I keep it. We also have an L2 in the garage but my wife uses that one since she drives a lot further than I do.

Ingineer · Feb 7, 2013

To clarify, the power ratings for the on-board charger and the EVSE's are thrown around, but are NOT interchangeable!

For instance, a Gen I Leaf has a 3.3kW OBC (On-Board Charger). This means it provides 3.3kW TO THE BATTERY. However, when it is doing so, it will consume about 3.8kW (16A) from a 240V connected Level-2 EVSE.

The Gen II Leaf has a 6.0kW OBC (supposedly, as yet unconfirmed), so this means to charge at max it will need to consume about 7kW (29A) from a 240V Level-2 EVSE. I would guess they chose a 6.0kW over a 6.6kW as most installed EVSE's are 30A. Putting in a 6.6kW unit running at capacity would require about 7.6kW or 32A from a 240V EVSE (home use) and 37A from a Wye-connected commercial unit. So basically most of the extra 600w capacity would rarely be used.

The reason why the input differs from the output is twofold; First the conversion from 240V AC to ~400V DC is not 100% efficient, and secondly, there is a fixed overhead of systems on the Leaf that need to be energized for charging to work properly. This means (at least on the Gen I Leaf) that the overall efficiency on Level II is usually around 85%, while on Level I (120v) it's not much over 70%.

Hope that helps!

-Phil

planet4ever · Feb 7, 2013

ERG4ALL said:
However, now that we know that the new LEAF's can have a 6.6 kW charger (i.e. 27.5A) that gets a little tight with only a 30A circuit depending on other factors like length of wire.

No, it is not "a little tight", it is way past legally tight. Breakers in the US are rated for intermittent use. The NEC requires that for continuous use (which charging an EV is) they must be derated by 20%. i.e. a 30A breaker and wiring can only support a 24A continuous load. That is why you must have 40A breakers for a 30A EVSE.

Since greengate already has 30A service in his garage, the reasonable approach is to use a 16A EVSE connected to a 20A circuit on that service. As he says, with 20-30 miles per day maximum, he has no need for charging any faster than 3.3kW, or even that fast. Like others, I think the EVSEupgrade would be ideal for his purpose. With his limited travel he has no need for an emergency charging cable stored in the car. Let Phil upgrade the one that comes with the car for less than $300 (the 12A version would be fine), leave it plugged in 24/7, and be done with it.

Ray

smkettner · Feb 7, 2013

greengate said:
While I have 220 volt, 30 amp service in my unattached garage, (150 feet from the main 200 amp circuit breaker box,) I read that for Level 2 ..40 amp service is required. Might 30 amp be enough if there is nothing else drawing from the line while the Leaf is on a Level 2 charge? Just curious as I don't see that I would even need this Level 2 given the few miles I would drive during a 6 hour period in the 24 hour cycle..leaving 18 hours for a 110 volt recharge.

You may not need the L2. However you don't need a 40 amp supply either. L2 can range from 5 amps to about 75 amps. You are an excellent candidate for a Leviton 160 that only needs 20 amp circuit and will charge at 16 amps. This is full speed L2 for those of us with 2011 & 2012 models. While your 2013 can charge faster it is not necessary. Especially driving 30 miles per day.

weekss · Feb 7, 2013

Greengate; We live in St. Louis, not that much different climate-wise than the Chicago area (I grew up in IL). Driving avg is 40-50 miles daily. We do just fine with the trickle charger that came with the Leaf. Park it in the garage between 6-7PM, programmed and charges to 80% no problem by morning, leave again by 7:30. It would charge beyond that if it weren't programmed to stop.
My original plan was to get an L2 charger but someone suggested to wait and see if it was needed. Glad I waited

! It doesn't work for everyone but there are a number of Leaf owners who do not need anything beyond a standard plug-in. Best of luck with your Leaf and welcome to the forums.

RegGuheert · Feb 7, 2013

planet4ever said:
Like others, I think the EVSEupgrade would be ideal for his purpose. With his limited travel he has no need for an emergency charging cable stored in the car. Let Phil upgrade the one that comes with the car for less than $300 (the 12A version would be fine), leave it plugged in 24/7, and be done with it.

While I agree that 12A is likely enough, I question whether the new LEAF EVSE is really up to the task of daily usage, regardless of whether or not it has a limited number of charges programmed into it. But I DO know that the Panasonic unit that came with the 2011/2012s IS up to the task, as many of us have charged our LEAFs with that EVSE upgraded to 240V without any issues that I am aware of. If OP acts now, he can get one of the old ones upgraded from Phil. If he waits, that option may pass into LEAF history. I don't think Nissan will continue to stock the old LEAF EVSEs.

cwerdna · Feb 7, 2013

OP should edit the title.

The OP is asking about L2 EVSEs. The (on-board) charger is in the car for L1 and L2 charging. The "trickle charge" cord set w/brick, L1 or L2 portable or wall-mounted units/charging stations are all EVSE, not chargers.

Computerizer · Feb 7, 2013

greengate said:
I read that for Level 2 ..40 amp service is required. Might 30 amp be enough if there is nothing else drawing from the line while the Leaf is on a Level 2 charge?

I have mine plugged into a 30 amp 220 circuit, but my LEAF is of course a 2012 and only charges at 3.3 kW -- since the 2013 has a 6.6 kW charger it would most likely be an issue: Remember, Power = Current * Voltage; so Current = Power / Voltage; e.g. 6.6 kW / 220 V = 30 A. That means the charger is going to pull the full 30 A, unless it's somehow configured otherwise, and there's a good chance that's going to trip the breaker.

smkettner · Feb 7, 2013

Computerizer said:
the charger is going to pull the full 30 A, unless it's somehow configured otherwise, and there's a good chance that's going to trip the breaker.

A 16a evse is already preprogrammed to limit amps to 16 and will work fine on 30a circuit.

planet4ever · Feb 8, 2013

Computerizer said:
since the 2013 has a 6.6 kW charger it would most likely be an issue: Remember, Power = Current * Voltage; so Current = Power / Voltage; e.g. 6.6 kW / 220 V = 30 A. That means the charger is going to pull the full 30 A, unless it's somehow configured otherwise, and there's a good chance that's going to trip the breaker.

To emphasize what smketner said, you never "configure" the charger in the car. The J1772 protocol says that the EVSE limits the draw. If you have a 16A EVSE on a 20A or 30A circuit, there is no issue with any future car, even if you connected it to a car with a 100kW charger. You just get about a 3.3kW charging rate no matter what the car is capable of.

For most people, most of the time, that's quite adequate as a home charging rate, even if you were to get a car with a very large battery, since 10 hours of charging (if your battery can hold that much) gives you well over 100 miles of driving per day. A very large battery (say, maybe 80kWh) will just let you buffer your charging, so you can drive 200 miles one day and 80 miles each of the next two, even though you never charge enough to go more than, say, 120 miles in a night.

Bottom line: You do not need a fast EVSE at home to "future-proof" your installation.

Ray

madbrain · Feb 11, 2013

Computerizer said:
greengate said:

I read that for Level 2 ..40 amp service is required. Might 30 amp be enough if there is nothing else drawing from the line while the Leaf is on a Level 2 charge?

Click to expand...

I have mine plugged into a 30 amp 220 circuit, but my LEAF is of course a 2012 and only charges at 3.3 kW -- since the 2013 has a 6.6 kW charger it would most likely be an issue: Remember, Power = Current * Voltage; so Current = Power / Voltage; e.g. 6.6 kW / 220 V = 30 A. That means the charger is going to pull the full 30 A, unless it's somehow configured otherwise, and there's a good chance that's going to trip the breaker.

Your calculation doesn't account for the loss of the L2 EVSE also. As Ingineer mention, there is about 15% loss for the 3.3 kW charger. It's not known what it will be exactly for the 6.6 kW charger.
And then there is the derating issue for continuous circuits. Bottom line, you will want a 40A circuit to accomodate that 30A charger if you have a 2013 Leaf model.

Personally, I have a 2012 . I had a 50A circuit installed in my garage. That was the way to future proof.
There is only a 30A dryer outlet on that circuit. And only an SPX L2 15A charger is plugged in to that outlet. And I have a 2012 model.

When the lease on my 2012 expires and it's time to return it to Nissan, I will likely sell that 15A L2 charging station to get the newer 2015 or 2016 Leaf, or some other EV or PHEV that will charge faster than the current car, and hopefully has a bigger battery as well.

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