Possible Widespread 2018-19 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

SageBrush said:

Joe6pack said:

If refueling speed is as important as this thread would imply, no EV can touch ice.

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Your LEAF on a bad day refuels at ~ 1 mile a minute at a DCFC.
A Tesla Model 3 SR refuels at ~ 4.5 - 5 miles a minute

It is why you are stuck also owning an ICE and I am not.

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Per Tesla, the SR can recharge 130 miles in 30 minutes, which is an average of 4 1/3 miles minute (likely under good or at least average conditions), presumably more early in the charge and less later.

GRA said:

SageBrush said:

Joe6pack said:

If refueling speed is as important as this thread would imply, no EV can touch ice.

Click to expand...

Your LEAF on a bad day refuels at ~ 1 mile a minute at a DCFC.
A Tesla Model 3 SR refuels at ~ 4.5 - 5 miles a minute

It is why you are stuck also owning an ICE and I am not.

Click to expand...

Per Tesla, the SR can recharge 130 miles in 30 minutes, which is an average of 4 1/3 miles minute (likely under good or at least average conditions), presumably more early in the charge and less later.

Click to expand...

The Model 3 charges at about 1.3 C for the bottom 2/3rds of the battery. The battery is large enough and Superchargers frequent enough to let the driver stay in that charging range in general, although exceptions will certainly occur, e.g. in poor weather conditions.

I anticipate 4.5 miles a kWh at 65 mph and this is what people are reporting

So a rate of 70 kWh an hour results in 70*4.5 = 315 miles per hour. My earlier post was meant to err on the side of caution.

SageBrush said:

It is why you are stuck also owning an ICE and I am not.

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You have Tesla Model 3 SR? First one sold. Congrats.

Now back to reality: The LEAF still isn't a road trip car and no Tesla or any other BEV can match an ice for road trip capability.

Joe6pack said:

no Tesla or any other BEV can match an ice for road trip capability.

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I'm sure that is true in a long race, but it is not true in a Tesla for the trips we take and our get-out-of-the-car along the way behaviors.

I do not have the car yet; a couple more months to wait

arnis said:

tcherniaev said:

First QC was great. Took about 45 minutes to get to 95%. Starting with the second QC I got limited charge rate. Initially I got capped at 27 kw.

I stopped for the night at the hotel with an L2 charger, but when I got to the QC in Vegas the following day I was again capped at 27 kw. After a long day and several hours on L2 I got to QC in Phoenix, and was limited to 22 kw. The story was the same the following day, even after the car rested for about 15 hours with no charing activity -- QC at the local mall was limited to around 24 kw.

On my way back it got really bad. I had to use L2 prior to arriving in Vegas. QC in Vegas was limited to 19 kw. And then it got worse: I was down to 15 kw on my next QC and down to 14 kw after that. I finally gave up for the night and stayed in a dumpy hotel next to QC in Fillmore for the night. It took over 2 hours to finish my last charge.

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Thanks for new data.

What was the outside temperature at daytime and at those nights car was parked?

We clearly see battery didn't cool down enough to get back to full speed charging.

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Sorry, I should have included temps:

First part of the trip was at or below 40F (we got snow in Salt Lake that morning), first overnight around 45F, Phoenix was around 85F day and 60F night (was parked in the shade the whole time). On my return trip it was around 70F in Vegas and continued to cool down to around 40F by the time I got to my last QC station.

So worst case was my last QC at around 40F ambient temp and 14 kw charge rate. I can only imagine what it would have been like if it was summer. Would I be limited to L2 rates? Even lower?

@SageBrush

Your LEAF on a bad day refuels at ~ 1 mile a minute at a DCFC. A Tesla Model 3 SR refuels at ~ 4.5 - 5 miles a minute. It is why you are stuck also owning an ICE and I am not...

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LOL, that and a small matter of $100K. I don't think I'll ever be a Tesla owner...

alozzy said:

@SageBrush

Your LEAF on a bad day refuels at ~ 1 mile a minute at a DCFC. A Tesla Model 3 SR refuels at ~ 4.5 - 5 miles a minute. It is why you are stuck also owning an ICE and I am not...

Click to expand...

LOL, that and a small matter of $100K. I don't think I'll ever be a Tesla owner...

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The high-end performance AWD version of the model 3 isn't available to order yet. My LR-PUP version was $50k. SageBrush is waiting for the $35k version. Might want to revisit your options, especially since Canadian reservation holders are getting their chance to order now, and the model 3 qualifies for the Ontario tax credit.

And just to add to my last comment:
I've owned LEAFs since 2011, used QC around town for years. Sometimes I would QC several times back-to-back. Never did a road trip until now.

I think I had realistic expectations going into this road trip. I did my research, planned things out based on my years of EV driving experience. I knew this was going to stretch LEAF's capabilities.

The reason why I so disappointed is the added wait time forced me to overnight too soon on the outbound leg, and I was again forced to overnight on the way back (my expectation was to make it home in one very long day, starting around 4 am). Waiting to charge for 45 minutes after 1.5 hours of driving is OK -- I need a bathroom break and/or a meal anyway. However, 2 HOUR wait really starts to get on my nerves.

To add to my frustration, EVGO stops charging every 30 minutes, so I have to re-start the session at least 3 times to get a full charge. In one particular instance this resulted in me running across the street twice while trying to eat lunch in a diner near the charger.

I am in line to buy Tesla Model 3, and I would imagine the same road trip will be a breeze in Tesla. Just comparing outbound leg of my 680 mile trip:
LEAF (real life experience): 120 miles, 45 min QC, 105 miles, 30 min QC, 50 miles, 7 hours L2 (overnight), 125 miles, 1.5 hours QC, 80 miles 2 hours L2, 70 miles, 3 hours L2, 130 miles, 15 min QC.
Tesla Model 3, small battery (estimated based on Supercharger map): 170 miles, 20 min charge, 105 miles, overnight the same place as with LEAF (L2, 9 hours), 125 miles, 20 min charge, 85 miles, 45 min charge (to full), 195 miles and done!

Based on this, Model 3 will be a total game changer for my road trips. Around town both cars are somewhat comparable, but when it comes to road trips, Tesla (and the supercharger network) simply rocks.

Even at 22 kW, the new LEAF should be able to charge from 20% to 80% in about an hour. I question whether the low charge rates later in the trip we're the fault of the LEAF or the chargers. No one else has seen charge rates that low under even extreme conditions.

Joe6pack said:

Even at 22 kW, the new LEAF should be able to charge from 20% to 80% in about an hour. I question whether the low charge rates later in the trip we're the fault of the LEAF or the chargers. No one else has seen charge rates that low under even extreme conditions.

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If the car starts out at 22 kW at 20% SoC, it is not going to be anywhere near that power level above 50%, let alone up to 80% SoC.
Why are you playing at internet troll ? Go get some data

Joe6pack said:

Even at 22 kW, the new LEAF should be able to charge from 20% to 80% in about an hour. I question whether the low charge rates later in the trip we're the fault of the LEAF or the chargers. No one else has seen charge rates that low under even extreme conditions.

Click to expand...

Have you noticed that you just tried to refute someone's hard data with conjecture and inference?

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

Joe6pack said:

Even at 22 kW, the new LEAF should be able to charge from 20% to 80% in about an hour. I question whether the low charge rates later in the trip we're the fault of the LEAF or the chargers. No one else has seen charge rates that low under even extreme conditions.

Click to expand...

Have you noticed that you just tried to refute someone's hard data with conjecture and inference?

Click to expand...

Do explain. The charging is simple math. His data conflicts with Dave's. Of course, anything that makes the LEAF look bad you're going to embrace. I'm simply offering an alternate theory.

tcherniaev said:

Based on this, Model 3 will be a total game changer for my road trips. Around town both cars are somewhat comparable, but when it comes to road trips, Tesla (and the supercharger network) simply rocks.

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Yup !

Particularly for someone like me who is unlikely to drive much more than 250 miles one way in a day, the Tesla is perfect. No fuss, no delays, no increase in travel time. I say no increase in travel time because I am more likely to drive a little faster in a Tesla than I allow myself in an ICE, and that will easily cover the few extra minutes spent charging.

Joe6pack said:

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

Joe6pack said:

Even at 22 kW, the new LEAF should be able to charge from 20% to 80% in about an hour. I question whether the low charge rates later in the trip we're the fault of the LEAF or the chargers. No one else has seen charge rates that low under even extreme conditions.

Click to expand...

Have you noticed that you just tried to refute someone's hard data with conjecture and inference?

Click to expand...

Do explain. The charging is simple math. His data conflicts with Dave's. Of course, anything that makes the LEAF look bad you're going to embrace. I'm simply offering an alternate theory.

Click to expand...

This is the data: http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25519&start=180#p525186

When hard data conflicts with your "simple math", then you should be questioning your simple math, not the hard data.

What your simple math failed to account for are:
- further tapering as the battery heats up
- the evgo charge timer forcing a restart of the charging session
- any other charging issues/nuances that this board isn't aware of yet - like this QC throttling behavior that differs from the smaller leaf variants.

That's what makes your response conjecture. The simple math isn't the problem. It's the misapplication of the simple math.

SageBrush said:

Joe6pack said:

Even at 22 kW, the new LEAF should be able to charge from 20% to 80% in about an hour. I question whether the low charge rates later in the trip we're the fault of the LEAF or the chargers. No one else has seen charge rates that low under even extreme conditions.

Click to expand...

If the car starts out at 22 kW at 20% SoC, it is not going to be anywhere near that power level above 50%, let alone up to 80% SoC.
Why are you playing at internet troll ? Go get some data

Click to expand...

No. Overheating Leaf has charge power limit not voltage capped limit. Maybe even amp limit. Therefore either it doesn't change charging speed at all (stays at 22kW until 80-90%) or charging rate slightly increases until maximum voltage is reached.

Anybody who wants to go on a trip with 40kWh Leaf should be light on pedal.
Do not accelerate hard. Keep power below 30kW when possible.
Do not regen hard. Try to keep it below 15kW.
Drive up to 60mph.
Avoid going below 20% state charge, prefer going over 80%.
These four things will reduce thermal load on the battery significantly.
Slowing down 5mph has positive effect on average speed (considering charging as well) in our case.

arnis said:

SageBrush said:

Joe6pack said:

Even at 22 kW, the new LEAF should be able to charge from 20% to 80% in about an hour. I question whether the low charge rates later in the trip we're the fault of the LEAF or the chargers. No one else has seen charge rates that low under even extreme conditions.

Click to expand...

If the car starts out at 22 kW at 20% SoC, it is not going to be anywhere near that power level above 50%, let alone up to 80% SoC.
Why are you playing at internet troll ? Go get some data

Click to expand...

No. Overheating Leaf has charge power limit not voltage capped limit. Maybe even amp limit. Therefore either it doesn't change charging speed at all (stays at 22kW until 80-90%) or charging rate slightly increases until maximum voltage is reached.

Click to expand...

Exactly. No one has indicated further tapering below 22 kW.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

Joe6pack said:

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

Have you noticed that you just tried to refute someone's hard data with conjecture and inference?

Click to expand...

Do explain. The charging is simple math. His data conflicts with Dave's. Of course, anything that makes the LEAF look bad you're going to embrace. I'm simply offering an alternate theory.

Click to expand...

This is the data: http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25519&start=180#p525186

When hard data conflicts with your "simple math", then you should be questioning your simple math, not the hard data.

What your simple math failed to account for are:
- further tapering as the battery heats up
- the evgo charge timer forcing a restart of the charging session
- any other charging issues/nuances that this board isn't aware of yet - like this QC throttling behavior that differs from the smaller leaf variants.

That's what makes your response conjecture. The simple math isn't the problem. It's the misapplication of the simple math.

Click to expand...

There is no indication of further tapering below the initial charging rate - even by this poster. The characteristics of the charger are not characteristics of the LEAF. Unknowns are by definition unknown.

But hey, you keep promulgating these anecdotes like they are hard facts.

arnis said:

SageBrush said:

Joe6pack said:

Even at 22 kW, the new LEAF should be able to charge from 20% to 80% in about an hour. I question whether the low charge rates later in the trip we're the fault of the LEAF or the chargers. No one else has seen charge rates that low under even extreme conditions.

Click to expand...

If the car starts out at 22 kW at 20% SoC, it is not going to be anywhere near that power level above 50%, let alone up to 80% SoC.
Why are you playing at internet troll ? Go get some data

Click to expand...

No. Overheating Leaf has charge power limit not voltage capped limit. Maybe even amp limit. Therefore either it doesn't change charging speed at all (stays at 22kW until 80-90%) or charging rate slightly increases until maximum voltage is reached.

Click to expand...

Agreed with this, but if charging power is limited, then the amps decreasing when voltage goes up would make more sense.

22kw @ 20% SOC would be charging with ~349V (guessing based off my 30kwh battery) and 63A. Since the car dictates the amperage drawn during the charge cycle, then it'd make more sense to reduce the amps as the voltage increases. Holding the amperage stable as voltage rises would increase the charge power and thus accelerate the heat gain - that's counter productive to the initial action of throttling charging power.

arnis said:

SageBrush said:

Joe6pack said:

Even at 22 kW, the new LEAF should be able to charge from 20% to 80% in about an hour. I question whether the low charge rates later in the trip we're the fault of the LEAF or the chargers. No one else has seen charge rates that low under even extreme conditions.

Click to expand...

If the car starts out at 22 kW at 20% SoC, it is not going to be anywhere near that power level above 50%, let alone up to 80% SoC.
Why are you playing at internet troll ? Go get some data

Click to expand...

No. Overheating Leaf has charge power limit not voltage capped limit. Maybe even amp limit. Therefore either it doesn't change charging speed at all (stays at 22kW until 80-90%) or charging rate slightly increases until maximum voltage is reached.

Anybody who wants to go on a trip with 40kWh Leaf should be light on pedal.
Do not accelerate hard. Keep power below 30kW when possible.
Do not regen hard. Try to keep it below 15kW.
Drive up to 60mph.
Avoid going below 20% state charge, prefer going over 80%.
These four things will reduce thermal load on the battery significantly.
Slowing down 5mph has positive effect on average speed (considering charging as well) in our case.

Click to expand...

Thanks Arnis!

I've seen a similar list before for these best-practices to use (when you can) for promoting longevity in the Nissan packs. Certainly something I will try to be cognizant of and follow.

I'm still hopeful that the new chemistry Nissan is using in the more dense 40kWh pack is going to help in dealing with thermal issues and higher temps. Even without any DCFC use, I think what you've listed above makes good sense as a more day-to-day practise.

Joe6pack said:

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

Joe6pack said:

Do explain. The charging is simple math. His data conflicts with Dave's. Of course, anything that makes the LEAF look bad you're going to embrace. I'm simply offering an alternate theory.

Click to expand...

This is the data: http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25519&start=180#p525186

When hard data conflicts with your "simple math", then you should be questioning your simple math, not the hard data.

What your simple math failed to account for are:
- further tapering as the battery heats up
- the evgo charge timer forcing a restart of the charging session
- any other charging issues/nuances that this board isn't aware of yet - like this QC throttling behavior that differs from the smaller leaf variants.

That's what makes your response conjecture. The simple math isn't the problem. It's the misapplication of the simple math.

Click to expand...

There is no indication of further tapering below the initial charging rate - even by this poster. The characteristics of the charger are not characteristics of the LEAF. Unknowns are by definition unknown.

But hey, you keep promulgating these anecdotes like they are hard facts.

Click to expand...

I think I get where you're coming up with this, but the whole idea that the charge rate increases after the start of charge only applies to batteries that haven't started tapering yet (cool and at below 40% SOC). With the 24kwh battery, it's not unreasonable to start below 20kw charge rate, but that does NOT apply with the bigger batteries.

The EVGO stations (near me), max out at 106 A, which would give an initial charge rate of 37kw @ 349V (~20% SOC). Any rate lower than that is dictated by the car, which is exactly the same behavior as during charge-taper.