2016 EVSE options & charge times (newbie)

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ironmanco

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2015
Messages
125
Location
Boulder, CO
I apologize as I'm sure this information is out there somewhere but after a bunch of searching I've been unable to find it.

1) I've found a variety of tables for charging of <2016 leafs with various options, ratings etc. I've been unable to find a similar table detailing the charging time for a 2016.

2) I currently have a 30A 240v circuit that feeds a 5kw heater and would like to re-purpose that for the leaf charging. I've seen the HCS-30 from clippercreek but was wondering what other options are out there both for the existing circuit as well as if the circuit was upgraded to 40A

3) Finally - my druthers would be to "share" the circuit with my garage heater. Having what would constitute a automated transfer switch for the Leaf EVSE. In other words, the LEAF would always take control when charging but when fully charged would then give power back to the heater. Anyone ever do something like this?

Thanks in advance and apologize again for what has probably been covered here already.
 
ironmanco said:
I apologize as I'm sure this information is out there somewhere but after a bunch of searching I've been unable to find it.

1) I've found a variety of tables for charging of <2016 leafs with various options, ratings etc. I've been unable to find a similar table detailing the charging time for a 2016.

2) I currently have a 30A 240v circuit that feeds a 5kw heater and would like to re-purpose that for the leaf charging. I've seen the HCS-30 from clippercreek but was wondering what other options are out there both for the existing circuit as well as if the circuit was upgraded to 40A

3) Finally - my druthers would be to "share" the circuit with my garage heater. Having what would constitute a automated transfer switch for the Leaf EVSE. In other words, the LEAF would always take control when charging but when fully charged would then give power back to the heater. Anyone ever do something like this?

Thanks in advance and apologize again for what has probably been covered here already.
Click to expand...
Note(1) QC lbw to 80% = 30 minutes. L2 = 6 hours: http://insideevs.com/2016-nissan-leaf-107-miles/ . Notes (2) and (3) Your 5KW heater draws 20.83 amps , (30A breaker and #10 wire). The leaf on board charger draws 27.5 amps (40A breaker and #8 wire). Here in Canada as of Feb. 29,2016 (C22.1-15 , 86-300(2) ) it is permitted to share a circuit utilizing a manual or automatic transfer switch for use of electric vehicle charging, however it would still have to be a 40 amp circuit. I assume you live in the States? There is another electrician on this forum in the USA who can confirm NEC comparability with this rule.http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=21200 .
 
Max draw is 24A on a 30A circuit, more than adequate for a LEAF as the 3A difference is not going to make in impact for home charging.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Max draw is 24A on a 30A circuit, more than adequate for a LEAF as the 3A difference is not going to make in impact for home charging.
Click to expand...
The wire will handle it, the overloads in the 30a breaker will be stressed (heat) causing premature failure IF YOU ARE LUCKY. Besides... it's illegal and could jeopardize your home insurance when something does occur.
 
ElectricEddy said:
EVDRIVER said:
Max draw is 24A on a 30A circuit, more than adequate for a LEAF as the 3A difference is not going to make in impact for home charging.
Click to expand...
The wire will handle it, the overloads in the 30a breaker will be stressed (heat) causing premature failure IF YOU ARE LUCKY. Besides... it's illegal and could jeopardize your home insurance when something does occur.
Click to expand...


Codes specifies a 24A load for a 30A circuit, that is a 30A breaker with 10G wire assuming the length is to spec, There is no heat issue with the breaker. A 24A load does not require a 40A breaker. Additionally, it is not illegal, please show me this "LAW". Your insurance will not and can't deny coverage for a proper circuit.
 
ElectricEddy said:
Note(1) QC lbw to 80% = 30 minutes. L2 = 6 hours: http://insideevs.com/2016-nissan-leaf-107-miles/ . Notes (2) and (3) Your 5KW heater draws 20.83 amps , (30A breaker and #10 wire). The leaf on board charger draws 27.5 amps (40A breaker and #8 wire). Here in Canada as of Feb. 29,2016 (C22.1-15 , 86-300(2) ) it is permitted to share a circuit utilizing a manual or automatic transfer switch for use of electric vehicle charging, however it would still have to be a 40 amp circuit. I assume you live in the States? There is another electrician on this forum in the USA who can confirm NEC comparability with this rule.http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=21200 .
Click to expand...

Per your response to my Question 1: The QC port doesn't really make a difference to me since that won't be used at home. So at 24A it will take 6 hours to fully charge a 30kW battery?

-Andrew
 
ironmanco said:
fully charge a 30kW battery?
Click to expand...
You mean 30 kWh battery, NOT kW.

kW and kWh are very different metrics. It's the same as confusing gallons with horsepower. Think of kW = horsepower, kWh = gallons.

If one charges at 1 kW (or 1000 watts) for 6 hours, 6 kWh came out of the wall. If it's at 6 kW for 1 hour, it's also 6 kWh. If it's 1 watt for 6000 hours, it's also 6 kWh.
 
cwerdna said:
ironmanco said:
fully charge a 30kW battery?
Click to expand...
You mean 30 kWh battery, NOT kW.

kW and kWh are very different metrics. It's the same as confusing gallons with horsepower. Think of kW = horsepower, kWh = gallons.

If one charges at 1 kW (or 1000 watts) for 6 hours, 6 kWh came out of the wall. If it's at 6 kW for 1 hour, it's also 6 kWh. If it's 1 watt for 6000 hours, it's also 6 kWh.
Click to expand...

yes, replying on a small cell phone with gloves on. Apologies for the typo. And, no...it's not the same as confusing gallons and horsepower, it would be more akin to confusing two things that have the same first two letters in their abbreviation and only differ by it's third :)

Ya, see I always thought that charging was a lossy operation. You have the loss from the supply circuit, loss from the multiple connectors, loss from rectifiers, converters, etc. Maybe all of that is just a wash but I'm imagining that it's definitely not a 1:1 ratio as noted above.
 
ironmanco said:
cwerdna said:
ironmanco said:
fully charge a 30kW battery?
Click to expand...
You mean 30 kWh battery, NOT kW.

kW and kWh are very different metrics. It's the same as confusing gallons with horsepower. Think of kW = horsepower, kWh = gallons.

If one charges at 1 kW (or 1000 watts) for 6 hours, 6 kWh came out of the wall. If it's at 6 kW for 1 hour, it's also 6 kWh. If it's 1 watt for 6000 hours, it's also 6 kWh.
Click to expand...

yes, replying on a small cell phone with gloves on. Apologies for the typo. And, no...it's not the same as confusing gallons and horsepower, it would be more akin to confusing two things that have the same first two letters in their abbreviation and only differ by it's third :)

Ya, see I always thought that charging was a lossy operation. You have the loss from the supply circuit, loss from the multiple connectors, loss from rectifiers, converters, etc. Maybe all of that is just a wash but I'm imagining that it's definitely not a 1:1 ratio as noted above.
Click to expand...
It sorta is like confusing gallons with hp.

1 hp = ~0.746 kW. Fueleconomy.gov says 1 gallon of gasoline=33.7 kWh.

Correct. Charging isn't 100% efficient. Not everything that comes out of the wall makes it into the battery. And, not all 30 kWh are usable. I don't know the amount usable on the 30 kWh Leaf.

24 amps * 240 volts = 5760 watts = 5.76 kW. In 1 hour, 5.76 kWh would've come out of the wall. If we guesstimate it takes 30 kWh from the "wall" to fully charge a '16 Leaf SV/SL, assuming 5.76 kW charge rate, it should take ~5.21 hours. However, I suspect there is a ramp down and bounce phase like on the '13 to '15 Leafs where in the last hour, not much energy makes it into the battery. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=338038#p338038.

6 hours is probably close enough.
 
cwerdna said:
It sorta is like confusing gallons with hp.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the math lesson - that helped. Oh, and my point is that it's not like confusing gallons with horsepower since those two have very different abbreviations. Someone wouldn't accidentally truncate the gallon abbreviation (gal) and have it confused with horsepower (hp).

Cheers,
Andrew
 
ElectricEddy said:
Here in Canada as of Feb. 29,2016 (C22.1-15 , 86-300(2) ) it is permitted to share a circuit utilizing a manual or automatic transfer switch for use of electric vehicle charging, however it would still have to be a 40 amp circuit. I assume you live in the States? There is another electrician on this forum in the USA who can confirm NEC comparability with this rule.http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=21200 .
Click to expand...

Hmmm...what about a much simpler (but probably not to code) approach. The heater is controlled via a low voltage thermostat (nest). If I could get some control logic off of the EVSE then I could simply open the heating circuit (low voltage) to the nest whenever the leaf is charging. It's my understanding after fully charged the EVSE drops to mere mV as compared to the 24A full-on charging draw.
 
A Clipper Creek http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-30-24-amp-ev-charging-station-25-ft-cable/ HCS-30 (24A, 5.7 kW max) , will supply about 20 miles of range for every hour connected to either a 24 AHr or a 30 AHr Leaf Battery.

After battery reaches about 80% of charge the current ramps down.

If you start with 20% battery remaining an HSC-30 will probobly fully charge your 30 AHr battery in 5 hours or so or about 1 hour longer than a 24 AHr battery.
 
Flyct said:
A Clipper Creek http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-30-24-amp-ev-charging-station-25-ft-cable/ HCS-30 (24A, 5.7 kW max) , will supply about 20 miles of range for every hour connected to either a 24 AHr or a 30 AHr Leaf Battery.

After battery reaches about 80% of charge the current ramps down.

If you start with 20% battery remaining an HSC-30 will probably fully charge your 30 AHr battery in 5 hours or so or about 1 hour longer than a 24 AHr battery.
Click to expand...

"ramps down"? Can you elaborate on this? I'm considering putting a current switch (see below) on one of the lines to the leaf's EVSE so I'd like to know what the charging profile is.

http://www.functionaldevices.com/building-automation/display.php?model=RIBXKA
 
smkettner said:
I have not seen a load shed relay that would work as you expect.
Might need a manual switch or swap plugs. Does not give much heat when charging unattended.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking something like below. All I want to do is cut off the heater when the load from the leaf get's to a certain point. Trickle charging (<1A) would be fine.

http://www.functionaldevices.com/building-automation/display.php?model=RIBXKA
 
ironmanco said:
Flyct said:
A Clipper Creek http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-30-24-amp-ev-charging-station-25-ft-cable/ HCS-30 (24A, 5.7 kW max) , will supply about 20 miles of range for every hour connected to either a 24 AHr or a 30 AHr Leaf Battery.

After battery reaches about 80% of charge the current ramps down.

If you start with 20% battery remaining an HSC-30 will probably fully charge your 30 AHr battery in 5 hours or so or about 1 hour longer than a 24 AHr battery.
Click to expand...

"ramps down"? Can you elaborate on this? I'm considering putting a current switch (see below) on one of the lines to the leaf's EVSE so I'd like to know what the charging profile is.

http://www.functionaldevices.com/building-automation/display.php?model=RIBXKA
Click to expand...

LeafSpy pro gives excellent view of charge profile graphically. You can see here where I started at 60% charge and the car was receiving about 6 kW. As the battery approached 90% shortly after 1 hour the charge rate automatically reduced. Once it was close to 100% you can see where cell balancing was taking place as shunts were working. image.png
 
Flyct said:
LeafSpy pro gives excellent view of charge profile graphically. You can see here where I started at 60% charge and the car was receiving about 6 kW. As the battery approached 90% shortly after 1 hour the charge rate automatically reduced. Once it was close to 100% you can see where cell balancing was taking place as shunts were working.
Click to expand...

ok - this is very helpful. So the leaf will continue to cycle through 0 and 1kW ad infinitum or will it eventually drop this cycling as well?
 

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