Leaf - Range in cold climates and Buying/Leasing in Michigan

Hi Everyone,

It is an amazing forum for Leaf owners and prospective owners. I was able to get answers of most of my questions by browsing past topics. However I still need some help before I take the decision to become a satisfied Leaf owner. Please see below:

(1) I live in MI and it seems Volt is more favorite here than Leaf. I have seen only a rare Leaf in my past year here. I just wanted to know the experience of MI owners, about range in cold climates. However, I will really appreciate feedback from owners in cold states on actual range in cold climates. My commute is 20-25 miles oneway with 33% on city roads.

(2) I visited a dealership in MI and the salesperson didnt seem knowledgeable at all. It seemed that I am educating him about the product. There wasnt even a test car at the dealership. First thing that I heard from the sales guy is, "All the best" buying it. I obviously dont want to purchase a car from that dealer. I will really appreciate if forum members can suggest a salesperson/dealership in MI, near Greater Detroit Area, someone that has expertise in Leaf sales.

Thank you in advance.

Welcome! Good on you to consider a LEAF. Could you give us a better idea of your commute? Is it mostly freeway, city streets or a good mix of both? Assuming that it was mostly freeway, is there an alternate route you could take, which would allow you to slow down on very cold days? Are there perhaps block heater outlets available at your workplace? This could potentially come in handy, since it would allow you to preheat the car and top off the battery. It would take a bit longer on 120V than on 240V, but a big help nonetheless.

I live in Pittsburgh, and my commute is 30 miles each way. I had no problems this past winter. But you do have to make some sacrifices.

• Don't use the heater. It uses too much battery. Just use the seat & steering wheel heaters, and pre-heat while plugged in.
• Drive slower when colder. As long as you're willing to go 55mph when necessary to extend range in really cold weather, you will have no problems. With your shorter commute, you can probably continue going faster.

I have a garage at home & a parking garage w. chargers at work. So I don't have to worry about my battery being "cold-soaked" overnight or while at work. Your range will be reduced further if you can't keep it in a garage overnight.

I think it will work fine. Good luck!

I have a 54 mile round trip commute, most of that is highway with speeds from 55-65. With the 2013 heat pump I have had no issues running the heat and making the trip with ample charge to spare. Unfortunately, the lowest temperature I have seen since leasing the car has been 22F. With the seat & steering wheel warmers even that temp was okay with limited heat and a good jacket. I did this just to test how "bad" it would be if I needed to limit the heat. I fully expect to have to limit heat use when it is 0F this next winter.

You should be fine with your commute as long as you take it slow (go the speed limit) and are willing to turn of the heat when you need to.

Oh, also, lease. While degradation of the battery should be better for us cold climate drivers, there is still a chance that in 3-4 years winters could be pushing the limits of the car.

@ surfingslovak

Thank you for your reply. Me and my wife both work in downtown Detroit. Commute is around 20-25 miles oneway. City/Highway split is 33%/66%. Unfortunately living in Metro Detroit comes with its perks. Highways are the only options if we want to reach work alive. There are no heaters at our hospital parking structure, however I will sure be installing AeroEnvironment Level 2 charger at home. Thanks again.

@ bradbissell

Thank you for sharing your cold weather experience. It was very helpful. My experience will be similar. I have 20-25 miles oneway with 33% of that on city roads. It agree using seat charger will use less energy, and can give extra range. I did not know there was also a steering warmer. My speed will also be around 55-65 mph. There will still be few days with temp < 20 F, and will need to make compromises on those days. I always wear jacket anyways in the car. For most part, I guess I will be ok, However my wife will have problem as she likes to crank up the heat. I though plan Leaf for my use anyway. I agree leasing options are great now. There was also a great post on leasing. Thanks again. Hope to get the car soon.

you can make it if you are willing to lower your speed to compensate for driving conditions. your commute is not really that long (40-50 miles?) but even at the longer one, if you drove 55miles, your range should be near 75 miles except in the worst of days. I lived in your area and the weather can really change. snow, rain and especially the WIND, will play havoc on your range. keep in mind a 20 mph headwind driving 50 mph is the same as driving 70 mph without any wind.

in about two years, degradation will be a factor but I am guessing that the popularity of the Volt will result in more than the average number of public charging options by then

@ garsh

Thank you for sharing your cold weather experience. It was very helpful. I have 20-25 mile commute oneway with 33% on city roads. I agree using seat/steering warmers should result in more range. I plan to install level 2 charger at home, so pre-heat wont be a problem at home, however I am yet to see a charger/EV at work, so bundling up and using warmers on ride back seems the only option. Speeds will be around 55-65 mph on highways. I work few nights every month, so will need to park overnight at work, thankfully it is a covered parking structure but drafty unlike home. Hope to lease a Leaf soon. Thanks again.

aphysician said:

@ garsh

Thank you for sharing your cold weather experience. It was very helpful. I have 20-25 mile commute oneway with 33% on city roads. I agree using seat/steering warmers should result in more range. I plan to install level 2 charger at home, so pre-heat wont be a problem at home, however I am yet to see a charger/EV at work, so bundling up and using warmers on ride back seems the only option. Speeds will be around 55-65 mph on highways. I work few nights every month, so will need to park overnight at work, thankfully it is a covered parking structure but drafty unlike home. Hope to lease a Leaf soon. Thanks again.

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covered parking will help u much more than you know. you will probably delay seeing any significant range degradation for at least a few years. baking in the Sun can increase your batteries demise. it doesn't get hot a lot there but you still have your forays into the 90's enough to make a difference.

once again, slow it down and you will be fine. 65 in Summer is going to be ok but Winter will be pushing it and in certain conditions you wont make it. guessing you know this but what is the primary direction of travel for your commute? east/west or north/south?

You've received good information so far. The one point that only you can answer is how clean are the roads when it snows? If you have to push a lot of snow your range will decrease. If you can L1 charge at your destination then you're golden with a Leaf with a heat pump but remember during the coldest days it will still be running on resistance heat which is not nice to your range.

@ dave

Thank you for your reply. You have an amazing blog. I read your post on winter range there as well. It is very helpful to get an answer from an EV veteran like you. It is reassuring that I will get atleast 60-70 miles in winter. That should be enough for my commute, as I wont have any charging options at work. I understand there will be few compromises with driving style and highway speed on worst days. This will be my first EV after driving VW Golf for 5 years. Weather is really unpredictable, and that was my main concern before the purchase. I agree that leasing is a good option now, considering improvement in technology and degradation. For most parts, Leaf will be in covered parking at work and home. Direction of travel is mostly north/south on highways and east/west on local roads. I didnt know if that can be a factor too. I plan to lease somewhere in Oct/Nov, mainly to see if any more increments coming for next year, as that was the case with 2013 model and even 5-10 mile change can be a big difference. Just hope that the lease deals and $ 7500 rebate will be available. I thought there will be more action in EV space this year, but really disappointed. BMW/Merc launching models with > $ 50K price and nothing affordable is coming till 2014 Q2. Nissan is well ahead in the game. Thanks again.

Fortunately, with any EV, you can slow to 10-20 mph to get the most range possible, so if you're coming up short, the first thing to do is slow down and turn off the heater.

You should not have any problems on your commute (except being murdered, I guess). Within 6 to 18 months, the car is likely to lose 10% of its battery capacity, and then about 2-4% degradation per year after that.

In addition to degradation, the battery will experience temporary capacity loss when the battery is cold at about 1% per 4F degrees below 70F, where a 30F battery will lose 10% and a -10F temp will be 20% less.

So, in five years with a very cold battery, your battery capacity could be down 40% (20% for cold battery and 20% permanent degradation).

aphysician said:

BMW/Merc launching models with > $ 50K price and nothing affordable is coming till 2014 Q2. Nissan is well ahead in the game. Thanks again.

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Yes, Nissan has certainly recognized that EVs need to be affordable to compete. In regards to the i3, although final pricing has not been announced, I would expect it to be on par with a fully loaded Volt. If you add the range extended options, perhaps it will be close to $50K, but simply don't know. Infinity LE should be interesting as well, but there wasn't much news on that front lately.

Some cold links: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11506#p265550

Hi Doc:

We're in Minnesota, so about same weather.

Here are the pluses, and then I'll share the minuses:

+ Great car, zippy, quiet, comfortable
+ Cost of fuel is next to nothing
+ Cost of maintenance is next to nothing
+ Cool climates are great for overall battery life
+ Carwings system works very well to preheat the interior of the car on cold days, when the car is plugged into the grid.

- In Minnesota a heated garage is a must
- Comfort is greatly enhanced by pre-warming the car before leaving in the morning. The "on the grid" heat system works fantastic, but the on-the-road heater really stinks. The heated steering wheel and seats are very nice. You must wear warm shoes in the winter as the floor is very cold, with a cold draft. By the way, the a/c in summer works great on the road, but not off the grid, odd but true.
-Range is down about 20% in winter. 50 miles round-trip is possible, but . . .you will need to drive like an old lady when you are on the freeway, as speeds over 50-55 reduce range, in town/city driving at 30-45 is the sweet spot for range. If you can charge while at work, that would help a lot, and change the equation.
-If you have to leave it outside while at work in single digit F. temps, for many hours, that will probably affect range and comfort. Once again, if you can plug it in at work, then you can turn the heater on before you leave to go home, and have a great commute home, warm and no range anxiety. Getting a 220 volt outlet for your parking space shouldn't be a big deal, and tax credits are available for it.

In conclusion, we love our LEAF and accept its shortcomings in the winter, and we also have backup ICE car. I would recommend it if you can plug it in at work and have a heated garage to park at night. If not, I would think twice about it.

aphysician said:

@ dave

Thank you for your reply. You have an amazing blog. I read your post on winter range there as well. It is very helpful to get an answer from an EV veteran like you. It is reassuring that I will get atleast 60-70 miles in winter. That should be enough for my commute, as I wont have any charging options at work. I understand there will be few compromises with driving style and highway speed on worst days. This will be my first EV after driving VW Golf for 5 years. Weather is really unpredictable, and that was my main concern before the purchase. I agree that leasing is a good option now, considering improvement in technology and degradation. For most parts, Leaf will be in covered parking at work and home. Direction of travel is mostly north/south on highways and east/west on local roads. I didnt know if that can be a factor too. I plan to lease somewhere in Oct/Nov, mainly to see if any more increments coming for next year, as that was the case with 2013 model and even 5-10 mile change can be a big difference. Just hope that the lease deals and $ 7500 rebate will be available. I thought there will be more action in EV space this year, but really disappointed. BMW/Merc launching models with > $ 50K price and nothing affordable is coming till 2014 Q2. Nissan is well ahead in the game. Thanks again.

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first off, when I was in high school, I was on my way to school and came across a fellow classmate in the ditch (not uncommon in winter especially after an ice storm) I stopped to help them get unstuck and quickly realized that unless we pushed between wind gusts we were getting nowhere. we finally got her out and we watched as she crept down the road to school and maybe it was our minds playing tricks but I could see the bug sliding sideways almost as it if was leaning into the wind.

direction is a factor in your area or at least it was in the area I lived (Port Huron) in that during the worst of Winter weather, there is nearly always a VERY strong breeze blowing East/West over the Lake so travel in that direction will KILL your performance. north/south...not as bad but the wind usually shifts when you hit the River but either way, I thing I do remember VERY well that there is wind and lots of it!

in a roundtrip scenario, it will mostly cancel out but keep it in mind if you plan a one way trip near the range max expecting to charge up for a return.

@KSNoGas

Thank you for your reply. It is amazing how much one can learn from others experiences. I have been reading the forum the whole day, and reading relevant posts. I also reviewed your blog and DE website. Your efforts to make EV mainstream are really worth a praise. I have been interested in EV since 2006, but was stuck in school till 2011 with no money to spare. I have followed PlugInAmerica from their early days. It is really heartwarming to see EVs gaining some foothold in the market. I do believe they are here to stay, however the pace of adoption is much slower than anticipated earlier. Still they constitute < 1% of total vehicle sales.

Roads in Detroit doesn't get clean much, I guess lack of funds or maybe because I reach work way before ploughs are out, so I will be dealing with snow issue. I am yet to see outlet in the parking structure at work, cos I am not looking enough. I have been going back and forth between Leaf and Model S. I could afford it but it is beyond my space requirement and spending 1000 $ on luxury doesn't make sense. Leaf range is bit of handicap, as 50 miles commute is regular so need to charge daily overnight and basically I have no room for emergent trip if called back to work. I am holding off purchase till end of the year to see what action we may expect next year and also to see what range/price BMW and Merc offer. Tesla has been making good announcements lately, I will see what the remaining 3 announcements Elon has to make, hopefully he is not making stuff along the way. The first 2 announcement has been positive, hoping for stores and supercharger in nearby areas in other announcement. Whatever it is, I will be an EV owner in next year at most. Thanks again.

aphysician said:

... I have been going back and forth between Leaf and Model S. I could afford it but it is beyond my space requirement and spending 1000 $ on luxury doesn't make sense. Leaf range is bit of handicap, as 50 miles commute is regular so need to charge daily overnight and basically I have no room for emergent trip if called back to work...

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It's not likely that there will be much in the way of infrastructure for a long time in your area, so given your unique need to have a car ready to go all the time, I would absolutely go for a Model S. If you drove both, there's just no competition (if money is not a detriment).

You're wise to wait and see what BMW does, because an 80 mile EV car with an 80 gasoline engine might work quite well, also. Infiniti is likely to have an announcement by then, too.

The Mercedes B-Class might be ok, but it really looks a lot like a slightly smaller version of my Rav4 with a lot less Tesla battery. You could get a FANTASTIC deal on a Toyota Rav4 EV shipped to your door right now. See this thread:

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1691#p1691" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

@Tony

Thank you for your reply. It is great to get reply from so many early users. The advice is very helpful. I have been reading the forum all day and few blogs written by the members. The degradation and temporary loss in winter figures have been very helpful. I am not concerned about degradation as I was thinking of leasing my Leaf, however combined with winter capacity loss (as it stayed below 30 F for almost 4 months past winter, and good number of days below 20 F) I can expect to see performance dip of almost 25% in winter months after a year. That is very close for my commute. Also I reach work @ 650 am, so cruising is not an option on most days. There is no charging in parking structure, so cold soaking is a reality every workday. The more I think, Leaf seems to be an unlikely option in winter. I will definitely be an EV owner in one year time. I just don't know which car fits my solution. I am not buying an ICE vehicle, when such great EV options are available. Tesla is an expensive option, just waiting for announcement from BMW and Merc, hopefully it is in between Leaf and Tesla in terms of range/price. I thought everything else including Rav4 was only for CA, as compliance car. Thank you for forwarding me the link. I will definitely look into it. I will keep you updated. May contact you again before I make the purchase.

@ Dave

Thanks again. There are windy days for sure, and I agree that will be a factor on few days as Detroit is very close to the river. I also got a good idea about winter range drop from Tony's and KSNoGas's posts. It seems that combining everything i.e. cold, wind, snow; i should expect no more than 60 miles on a single charge in winter months. That is too close for my 50 miles commute. I feel I may need to look in other options, Rav4 EV and Tesla are the only options currently. I will wait till the year end and then will take the plunge anyway.