2013 Leaf acquisition advice

I have been reading this forums for two weeks. I love how passionate people are here about the car they love.
I am not sure this is the proper section to post to. I wanted to write down my justifications and ask some questions.

To start, right now i drive a 2009 subaru impreza. I drive 90miles round trip from South San Francisco to work at San Ramon. I pay ~$400 for gas every month. That costs had gotten me to look into buying a fuel econ. car. The research went from Diesel to Hybrid to all- electric. I like Prius and Volts but they dont really save me that much money due to its continual reliance on gas.

Charging:
- There are three charging stations at work. Two level 2 chargers and One Quick Charge Port. As of now, they claim this year will be free
- I plan on installing a Level2 charger at my house. Electrician is coming out to provide a quote for me tomorrow.
- There are a lot of charging options around if i get into a jam. (Walgreens, City Halls etc).
Conclusion: Not really worried about charging and running out of battery.

Range:
I drive 45 miles one way with charging station at work. Even if the battery lost capacity bars to 70%, i will still have enough to get from point A to point B


Costs:
Because the monthly costs are too high, i am stuck with just leasing. The current leasing deals for SL trims hangs around $200 dollars before tax. I checked the insurance and the leaf will run me ~$400/6 months or $67/month. From what i read in the forums, it will take roughly $2-3 dollars a day to charge the leaf at home. $200 lease + $67 insurance + $60 Electricity = $327.
Conclusion: Mild up front savings without considering costs of maintenance which is a lot lower than other cars.

Questions:
- Are the leather seats on the SL heated as well? Are they noticeably more comfortable than the cloth?
- The Bose system with the premium package. Is it more energy saving than the regular speakers?
- Since i drive over 20k miles a year, does it make more financial sense for a person to pay the extra miles up front?
- How does the maintenance costs for the leaf over three years? Does it make financial sense to get the maintenance package?

Thanks for reading and the advice. I look forward to joining this community as a proud leaser to Leaf =)

You sure you really want to lease w/that kind of commute? Seems like you'd be averaging somewhere over 20K miles/year.

As for "I like Prius and Volts but they dont really save me that much money due to its continual reliance on gas." I don't know which engine and config of Impreza you have, but from http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=25939&id=25936&id=26030&id=31767" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, you'll safely get about double the mileage w/a Prius.

As for charging at work, what happens when they're not free? How much will they charge? It might not be economical to use them, but yet you'll need charging at work/somewhere along the way.

Regarding "From what i read in the forums, it will take roughly $2-3 dollars a day to charge the leaf at home", who is your electric provider? Have you actually run the numbers? It might be more due to be pushed up into more expensive electricity tiers.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=155519#p155519" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ran some numbers for me and those are old rates now. If you're on PG&E, http://www.pge.com/myhome/myaccount/charges/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (for non TOU plans) and http://www.pge.com/cgi-bin/pevcalculator/PEV/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; can help you estimate.

Can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side)?

Absolutely no on maintenance package. I have over 12,000 miles on mine and haven't paid a penny in repairs or maintenance. The most you'll need to do in your lease, other than tire rotation and replacing the tires, is maybe change the brake fluid once or twice and replace the cabin filter if it's dirty.

No on extended warranty (you can always buy it afterwards, and usually for cheaper than at point of sale).

Given advances in technology and the obsolescence of CHAdeMO and the yet unknown longevity of the battery, you probably want to stick with a lease, even if you will go way over on miles. Don't pay up front for overage. Don't buy out the lease immediately (no benefit since the money factor is so low).

At the end of the lease, if you are happy with the car and if the actual value of the car minus the overage fee is MORE than the residual value, you'll probably want to buy it out. If it's less, or if you don't like the car, you'll probably want to turn it in and pay the overage fee. You're looking at $2250 in overage fees. There's a possibility the actual value of the car will be $2250+ less than the residual value, so don't sweat it. I'll be going over on my miles too, but the way I figure it, it's still cheaper to pay that fee and continue driving the LEAF than it would be to park the LEAF and put those miles on my gas car.

The biggest mistake I made was putting money down on the lease. You want to put as little down as they will let you, because if you wreck the car, that money is not recoverable.

@cwenda
Yes i do want to lease. Purchasing is not a financial option for me at this point.
Your point about hybrid doubling my fuel economy is true. However it does not offer me the savings that I can get from the Leaf.
PG&E is my electric provider. According to their website I am currently averaging 6.14kWh per day @ .13/kWh. Monthly usage is 212kWh which brings me pretty close to tier2. I will most likely go with the E9A rate plan. Adding a second meter is too costly in my point of view.
From the thread you provided the calculation would be Tier2 .15x21kWh (240V with loss )= $3.15 x 20 working days = $63 dollars a month increase on the pge electricity bill.

@kubel
Thank you for your advice. You have convinced me to not purchase the extra miles and the maintenance.

Does anyone have feedback regarding the seats and the sound system?

It's likely you'll get sticker shock about the total home EVSE installation price, including the unit.

sorloverboy said:

Does anyone have feedback regarding the seats and the sound system?

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I seriously doubt you'd see any significant range improvement by going w/the Bose stereo. You're going to see more variance due to heater usage and speeds.

Not many folks have '13 Leafs yet, let alone w/leather. It was unavailable prior to the '13 model year.

I think a used prius would be cheaper. You are looking at $400 a month with the extra mileage and that doesn't include your down payment if you were planing on one. You will probably need a set of tire at lease end also.

As with all TCO calculations, the duration of ownership and unknown residual value makes the results very speculative, IMO, but go to the entire article at the link to see all the Ifs involved in calculating the results below.

http://www.plugincars.com/2013-leaf-price-cut-make-it-one-cheapest-cars-own-126549.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nissan LEAF Price Cut Makes it One of the Cheapest Cars to Own

By Zach McDonald · February 28, 2013

Vehicle Model

Total Cash Price

True Cost to Own
(Over 5 years)



2012 Nissan LEAF

$35,957

$35,646



Chevy Volt

$44,900

$42,127



Volkswagen GTI

$21,718

$43,308



Honda Fit

$14,982

$33,744



Ford Focus

$17,336

$38,288



Hyundai Elantra

$20,181

$37,401



Toyota Prius c

$20,799

$36,922



Chevy Cruze

$19,561

$38,495



Volkswagen Golf

$26,456

$40,453


Interestingly enough, when you include the federal $7,500 credit, Edmunds’s TCO calculator already scores the 2012 LEAF ahead of a number of gas-fueled sedans when the costs are averaged over a five-year period.

The 2013 LEAF should fare even better. To get an estimate of how the new LEAF might come out using this metric, I subtracted the difference in base cost between the 2012 LEAF SV and the 2013 base model S. In order to estimate the cost of ownership, I calculated the rate of depreciation for the 2012 LEAF (as a function of its starting price) and applied that to the price of the 2013 model, keeping all other factors constant. Here’s what I came up with:

(To reiterate, the numbers below are not from Edmunds, but rather an estimate of how the 2013 LEAF might shake out using methods I’ve inferred from Edmunds's data.)



Vehicle Model

Total Cash Price

True Cost to Own
(Over 5 years)



2013 Nissan LEAF
(*estimated)

$29,705*

$32,610*


Surprisingly, if my extrapolations are even close to correct, the 2013 LEAF S may end up having among the lowest 5-year total ownership costs of any car on the U.S. market. At $32,610 the LEAF even comes in ahead of inexpensive small gas cars like the Honda Fit and Ford Focus...

Click to expand...

Elephanthead said:

I think a used prius would be cheaper. You are looking at $400 a month with the extra mileage and that doesn't include your down payment if you were planing on one. You will probably need a set of tire at lease end also.

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Priuses unfortunately (?) hold their value pretty well, often a year or two old Prius isn't much cheaper than a new one. One has to usually go w/a much older/high mileage vehicle (w/the basic 3 year/36K warranty expired) to get one cheap.

Unfortunately, http://buyatoyota.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for my Nor Cal zip code is now only showing a generic special rather than details for any car. So, I can't even see if there are any lease specials. Started happening last night.

I'd be concerned about having an EV charging spot available every day. They are often filled, and it's going to get worse. You won't get home without one. An EV charging reservation will do no good if an ICE car happens to be parked there, blocking you.

Everyone has different thresholds of worry. After two years of owning a Leaf I think a pure EV is viable only if you can drive it to work and back, plus say 30%, without charging (that's my situation). Unless you really want to plan each day around your car.

You want to buy a new Prius, they hold their value so spectacularly well that it does not pay to buy a used one and expect to get get a discount.. try to buy one before the summer high prices for gasoline get here.

Herm said:

You want to buy a new Prius, they hold their value so spectacularly well that it does not pay to buy a used one and expect to get get a discount.. try to buy one before the summer high prices for gasoline get here.

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We already have high gas prices in California. http://fuelgaugereport.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; says the CA average is $4.235 for regular. From what I've seen, it seems like the expensive gas stations have more/less leveled off at $4.30-ish. I think the cheaper ones are slowly creeping up.

But yeah, I noticed that about Prius values. Helped a friend buy a new '11 Prius at the end of 2011 (2012s weren't showing up for another 1.5 to 2 months). We looked prices of used ones in Toyota's inventory and there really was little savings vs. new.

Quite honestly if you're not well heeled why are you considering a brand new car at all? Brand new is a luxury you seem to admit you can't afford. Just buy a late model car you can afford. That's my two cents from someone who bought a $3,000 used Hyundai (and sold it years later for $3,500) until I could save up to buy the car I really wanted. Why put yourself into debt if you can avoid it? I'm not trying to be patronizing. Just that one bad move can set you back for years.

wantonsoup said:

Quite honestly if you're not well heeled why are you considering a brand new car at all? Brand new is a luxury you seem to admit you can't afford. Just buy a late model car you can afford. That's my two cents from someone who bought a $3,000 used Hyundai (and sold it years later for $3,500) until I could save up to buy the car I really wanted. Why put yourself into debt if you can avoid it? I'm not trying to be patronizing. Just that one bad move can set you back for years.

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I am not sure I agree. With great deals available, tax savings, gas savings, and maintenance savings, I think I Nissan Leaf makes sense for lots of these types of people.

Could you use BART to get to work and forget driving? That might be the wisest choice financially if you can do it.

DanCar said:

wantonsoup said:

Quite honestly if you're not well heeled why are you considering a brand new car at all? Brand new is a luxury you seem to admit you can't afford. Just buy a late model car you can afford. That's my two cents from someone who bought a $3,000 used Hyundai (and sold it years later for $3,500) until I could save up to buy the car I really wanted. Why put yourself into debt if you can avoid it? I'm not trying to be patronizing. Just that one bad move can set you back for years.

Click to expand...

I am not sure I agree. With great deals available, tax savings, gas savings, and maintenance savings, I think I Nissan Leaf makes sense for lots of these types of people.

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Maybe a great deal on a 2011 Leaf with 10k miles on it would be better for these people who can't afford the payments on a brand new car? Not going into debt makes more sense than any car.

abasile said:

Could you use BART to get to work and forget driving? That might be the wisest choice financially if you can do it.

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Yes, if he's willing to wait 12 years or more. Right now BART just goes to Fremont. It is currently being extended to the very edge of San Jose, but he will have to wait four years for that, it would still take another 35-45 minutes by bus and Light Rail to get to work. As for BART to down town, the plans are on hold right now, and the earliest it could happen is 2025.

Ray

planet4ever said:

abasile said:

Could you use BART to get to work and forget driving? That might be the wisest choice financially if you can do it.

Click to expand...

Yes, if he's willing to wait 12 years or more. Right now BART just goes to Fremont. It is currently being extended to the very edge of San Jose, but he will have to wait four years for that, it would still take another 35-45 minutes by bus and Light Rail to get to work. As for BART to down town, the plans are on hold right now, and the earliest it could happen is 2025.

Click to expand...

Wow, I guess I assumed that BART was further along by now. (About 20 years ago I lived in the Bay Area for a few months.)

I agree that considering a used 2011 LEAF might not be a bad idea, provided that workplace charging can be relied on over the long haul. Otherwise, maybe a 10 year old Prius.

"Surprisingly, if my extrapolations are even close to correct, the 2013 LEAF S may end up having among the lowest 5-year total ownership costs of any car on the U.S. market. At $32,610 the LEAF even comes in ahead of inexpensive small gas cars like the Honda Fit and Ford Focus..."

Have you considered depreciation? 4 Year value loss on my 2011 Leaf with 45,000 miles is about $14k off the $25k net of credit, 56%. That's $23,000 less than the amount Nissan sold it for 46 months prior.

zack said:

"Surprisingly, if my extrapolations are even close to correct, the 2013 LEAF S may end up having among the lowest 5-year total ownership costs of any car on the U.S. market. At $32,610 the LEAF even comes in ahead of inexpensive small gas cars like the Honda Fit and Ford Focus..."

Have you considered depreciation? 4 Year value loss on my 2011 Leaf with 45,000 miles is about $14k.

Click to expand...

Is that including the $7,500?

If you leased a Leaf you have a ridiculously low ownership cost. I ended up spending less than $7k on the car after tax credits, plus $900 in electricity for 24k miles. That's about $300/month including the car, "fuel", and taxes. And insurance has been really cheap too.

Sharp contrast to the Tesla I'm getting next month, which is a luxury that makes little economic sense in terms of fuel prices and ownership cost.

**note the edit I made to clarify.

"If you leased a Leaf you have a ridiculously low ownership cost. I ended up spending less than $7k on the car after tax credits, plus $900 in electricity for 24k miles. That's about $300/month including the car, "fuel", and taxes. And insurance has been really cheap too."

That's about the same as an Accord at 200 plus 100 in gas/month. The residual on the Accord at lease end would have most likely been calculated higher with it's known historical values.

"...after tax credits..." I take it you mean they wrote the contract based on the net and not the MSRP. Have you turned it in yet and finalized the lease? And you had what a 24 month lease, or do you plan to turn in 36 month early? How much down? And what's (was) the agreed on return value? Was battery capacity an issue? How did they (will they) deal with the cratering in depreciation?

Maybe you got lucky?

I dislike leases because they are too complicated to negotiate. Hard enough to beat through a sensible deal on a cash sale. How they calculate your residual, total miles driven, etc. that is where it all gets tricky, pretty sure they have a better information than the buyer on how to work the many factors in their favor.