GRA
Posts: 9518
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: GM: 1 Million 30 MPG-Plus Vehicle Sales in 2012

Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:26 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:I think we are all saying that "not every car is fit for every situation" in about a dozen different ways.

GRA is fixated on the LEAF as a "all or nothing" car although he grudgingly admits there could be a small role for a LEAF in a multi car household.

Then there is actual LEAF owners who have learned (the learning curve is really not steep) how best to incorporate the LEAF into the daily scheme of things.

Nothing grudging about it, Dave. I cheerfully agree that the car can work for many families, but that most of them won't consider it for the reasons I've previously stated.

DaveinOlyWA wrote:RegGuheert has it right. about 97+% of the time, the LEAF is taken for the longest planned drive of the day. The Prius (or whatever we replace it with) takes the shortest simply because it costs so much more to drive it.

When I drive the LEAF in Winter, my range is a comfortable (as in no range anxiety) 70 miles but when SO drives it, the range is about 50 miles and she is comfortable even on days like today when it was 20º this morning.

so we really get back to price and all indications suggest the price will be much more favorable this year. but gas prices are expected to be low due to low demand and ample supply. Unfortunately the US will be unlikely to take advantage of that fact by raising gas taxes to help support governmental operations so the end result is we Americans will be a bit more poorer and the oil companies will become a LOT more richer
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9518
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: GM: 1 Million 30 MPG-Plus Vehicle Sales in 2012

Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:38 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:Nissan risks being King of a very small hill,...
Sure they do. I think nearly everyone agrees that is their big risk. But so far it appears the Nissan LEAF has grown this "hill" faster than the Toyota Prius grew the hybrid "hill".

I'm not sure that's correct. There's a chart in the Feb. C/D or maybe it was MT comparing the sales rates of HEVs and BEVs/PHEVs over similar years (starting 2000 and 2008) and number of available models, and the HEVs are way ahead, year by year. Unfortunately it's not explicitly stated if this is U.S. sales only, or world.

RegGuheert wrote: Both "hills" have been subsidized by the government and it is clear Nissan is leasing (and perhaps selling) LEAFs at a loss. New MNL member OldMike tells of how the LEAFs at local dealerships are being scarfed up by dealership employees:
OldMike wrote:My wife had known about the killer lease programs on the Leafs for a while. She works at a couple of Nissan dealerships, and most of the sales guys were leasing the 2012 Leafs. She knew that I was interested in getting another vehicle so that I could park the truck, but she didn't even mention the deals going on with the Leaf and the fact that there was a run on them at the dealership by the sales guys (which means that the deals were complete steals).
Our dealership is similarly filled with many LEAF lessees. So, is Nissan making money on these deals? Certainly not! But they are investing in educating the employees in their dealerships. I can tell you there are LEAF evangelists at our Nissan dealership today who were sorely missing when we purchased our LEAF!

Much like the Toyota Prius, the Nissan LEAF is undergoing a steady process of evolution. The 2013 is not a huge change from the 2011/2012, but it lowers the entry point and likely gives a few more miles of range. Dealerships are more comfortable selling EVs and Nissan is now producing them in the local currency. All of these things will grow the market. Still no "Holy Grail" battery, but IMO that is not required for sales growth except in the hot climates.

I disagree - they need a TMS that heats as well as cools the battery, plus a well-insulated pack to make the car more viable in colder climates. Sure, the battery won't die from heat, but the range is so short when using lots of heat and defrost and driving on wet, snowy or icy roads that it just won't work for many people, and even if it does most won't accept the anxiety level. PHEVs are the answer for the moment in those conditions.

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:...and until they put a TMS or an improved battery chemistry in their cars, I believe their U.S. market acceptability will remain even more limited than it already is.
We certainly agree on this point! I'm pretty sure I was the first one on here to express that Nissan should not be selling the LEAF in Phoenix. They should only lease it there in recognition thhat the battery will wear out prematurely. But I do think the bettery capacity warranty is a step in the right direction if only to warn future LEAF customers. Owner loyalty aside, as built, the Nissan LEAF simply is not a good fit for very hot climates because the battery wears out so fast that it becomes quite harmful to the environment.

As always, I vote for a better battery instead of TMS.

I'd love to see a battery that doesn't much care about temperature (hot OR cold), but don't expect it anytime soon.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6332
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: GM: 1 Million 30 MPG-Plus Vehicle Sales in 2012

Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:57 am

GRA wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:Nissan risks being King of a very small hill,...
Sure they do. I think nearly everyone agrees that is their big risk. But so far it appears the Nissan LEAF has grown this "hill" faster than the Toyota Prius grew the hybrid "hill".

I'm not sure that's correct. There's a chart in the Feb. C/D or maybe it was MT comparing the sales rates of HEVs and BEVs/PHEVs over similar years (starting 2000 and 2008) and number of available models, and the HEVs are way ahead, year by year. Unfortunately it's not explicitly stated if this is U.S. sales only, or world.
It's correct. Even ignoring 1997, LEAF outsold Prius during it's first two years worldwide and during its first two years in U.S. Here is a post by mirko with formatted data he got from Wikipedia: Time Magazine declares LEAF a flop
mirko wrote:That Prius was a flop too. When it first came out. I wonder if Time magazine had an article about that too. :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius#Sales

Code: Select all

+---------------------------------------------------------+
|       Annual Prius sales worldwide and by region        |
|                    (in thousands)                       |
+------+-------+-------+---------+-------+--------+-------+
| Year | World | Japan |  North  |  U.S. | Europe | Other |
|      |       |       | America |       |        |       |
+------+-------+-------+---------+-------+--------+-------+
| 1997 |   0.3 |   0.3 |         |       |        |       |
| 1998 |  17.7 |  17.7 |         |       |        |       |
| 1999 |  15.2 |  15.2 |         |       |        |       |
| 2000 |  19.0 |  12.5 |     5.8 |   5.6 |    0.7 |  0.01 |
| 2001 |  29.5 |  11.0 |    16.0 |  15.6 |    2.3 |   0.2 |
| 2002 |  28.1 |   6.7 |    20.3 |  20.1 |    0.8 |   0.2 |
| 2003 |  43.2 |  17.0 |    24.9 |  24.6 |    0.9 |   0.4 |
| 2004 | 125.7 |  59.8 |    55.9 |  54.0 |    8.1 |   1.9 |
| 2005 | 175.2 |  43.7 |   109.9 | 107.9 |   18.8 |   2.9 |
| 2006 | 185.6 |  48.6 |   109.0 | 107.0 |   22.8 |   5.3 |
| 2007 | 281.3 |  58.3 |   183.8 | 181.2 |   32.2 |   7.0 |
| 2008 | 285.7 |  73.1 |   163.3 | 158.6 |   41.5 |   7.7 |
| 2009 | 404.2 | 208.9 |   144.3 | 139.7 |   42.6 |   8.4 |
+------+-------+-------+---------+-------+--------+-------+
GRA wrote:I disagree - they need a TMS that heats as well as cools the battery, plus a well-insulated pack to make the car more viable in colder climates. Sure, the battery won't die from heat, but the range is so short when using lots of heat and defrost and driving on wet, snowy or icy roads that it just won't work for many people, and even if it does most won't accept the anxiety level. PHEVs are the answer for the moment in those conditions.
You are using words like "many" and "most". I never claimed the LEAF would work for most people. I claimed the LEAF would work fine for about 10 million commuters in the U.S. today, namely those having a commute between about 20 and 40 miles. Do you really think it won't work for many people in this group?

As far as battery TMS goes, I consider them to be a stopgap measure that will not last long in the history of EVs. I agree that the LEAFs current battery is not suited for Phoenix today without TMS, but that does not mean TMS is a good idea with a better battery solution.
GRA wrote:I'd love to see a battery that doesn't much care about temperature (hot OR cold), but don't expect it anytime soon.
High temperature batteries with 50% more capacity exist today (although I am unsure of the specific power). I don't know if Nissan plans to use that or similar technology in future LEAFs or not.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

cwerdna
Posts: 8407
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: GM: 1 Million 30 MPG-Plus Vehicle Sales in 2012

Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:17 am

RegGuheert wrote:It's correct. Even ignoring 1997, LEAF outsold Prius during it's first two years worldwide and during its first two years in U.S...

Yeah, but during the first two years in the US, gas was very cheap compared to now at below $2/gallon. See http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHa ... US_DPG&f=W. At some points, it was barely above $1/gallon.

As I posted at http://priuschat.com/threads/smart4two. ... ost-593919:
The amazing part was in December 2001, my parents and I were in the Los Angeles area and we saw regular unleaded for <$1/gallon. We didn't even bother shopping around for gas when we saw it that cheap.

Someone (I think it was Car and Driver) that had a great graph of a few years showing unit sales vs. # of players in the market. For the longest time, Toyota and Honda were basically unchallenged in the hybrid market w/almost nobody else in the game. Now, unit sales are way up w/Toyota dominating hybrids but there are a LOT of players in the tiny BEV/PHEV market.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6332
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: GM: 1 Million 30 MPG-Plus Vehicle Sales in 2012

Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:06 am

cwerdna wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:It's correct. Even ignoring 1997, LEAF outsold Prius during it's first two years worldwide and during its first two years in U.S...

Yeah, but during the first two years in the US, gas was very cheap compared to now at below $2/gallon. See http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHa ... US_DPG&f=W. At some points, it was barely above $1/gallon.
Sure, but note the price differential between an EV and an ICEV is larger than between an HEV and an ICEV. That is one reason GM decided not to sell the EV1 back then.

We purchased our 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid in April 2002. At that time, gasoline cost $1.65/ gallon around here. The HCH cost about $4000 more than an ICE Civic at that time and there was a $2000 federal tax credit in place, so you only had to recover about $2000 in fuel expenses to justify the purchase solely on cost. At the time, I calculated that at $2.00/gallon I would need to drive 100,000 miles to recover the extra cost.

We purchased our 2011 Nissan LEAF in March 2012. At that time gasoline cost about $3.25/gallon, which is about twice what it cost in 2002. The LEAF SL cost $35,000 on the road, which is about $12,000 more than an equivalently-equipped ICEV. There is a $7500 federal tax rebate in place, meaning we will have to recover about $4500 in fuel expenses to justify the purchase. If you do that calculation with $4.00/gallon average gasoline price and $0.10/kWh electricity, you will find that our purchase of the LEAF today is easier to justify than was our purchase of the HCH in 2002 since it will fully repay the extra up-front investment in fewer than 50,000 miles.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

cwerdna
Posts: 8407
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: GM: 1 Million 30 MPG-Plus Vehicle Sales in 2012

Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:34 am

When you got your 03 HCH, there was a tax deduction in place, NOT a tax credit.

Tax credit didn't start until January 06. It was a $3150 tax credit on my 06 Prius. I specifically didn't want my car until after 12/31/05 because I wanted the $3150 tax credit, not the lame $2000 deduction.

Electricity in my ripoff part of CA is NOT $0.10/kwh. My bill on PG&E w/E-1 schedule (not TOU based) for the most recent bill I can view was $49.61 for 366 kwh w/taxes and fees. That's 13.55 cents/kwh. I was under my baseline and can't go any lower on my schedule unless I claim CARE (claiming I'm low income).

Try putting in the 95136 zip into http://www.pge.com/myhome/myaccount/charges/, choosing no for CARE and putting in your usage. Then, compare your cost vs. PG&E's cost. The estimator is a bit too low since it doesn't include tax and fees. I'd be very curious for you to post the result.

A Bay Area Leafer helped me calculate how much "fueling" a Leaf would cost for me at viewtopic.php?p=155519#p155519.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6332
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: GM: 1 Million 30 MPG-Plus Vehicle Sales in 2012

Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:02 am

cwerdna wrote:When you got your 03 HCH, there was a tax deduction in place, NOT a tax credit.

Tax credit didn't start until January 06. It was a $3150 tax credit on my 06 Prius. I specifically didn't want my car until after 12/31/05 because I wanted the $3150 tax credit, not the lame $2000 deduction.
You're right! It was a deduction from income on my tax form. That moves out the payback time for the HCH to about 160,000 miles at $2.00/gallon or about 130,000 miles in reality. That's probably not justified from a purely financial standpoint given that the batteries in the HCHs do not seem to last that long.

Note that without any government subsidy the LEAF Will fully pay itself back after 125,000 miles at $4.00/gallon gas and $0.10/kWh electricity. That is much less than the 200,000 miles for the unsubsidized HCH in 2002. I don't know if our LEAF battery will last that long, but Stoaty predicts it will! ;)
cwerdna wrote:Electricity in my ripoff part of CA is NOT $0.10/kwh. My bill on PG&E w/E-1 schedule (not TOU based) for the most recent bill I can view was $49.61 for 366 kwh w/taxes and fees. That's 13.55 cents/kwh. I was under my baseline and can't go any lower on my schedule unless I claim CARE (claiming I'm low income).

Try putting in the 95136 zip into http://www.pge.com/myhome/myaccount/charges/, choosing no for CARE and putting in your usage. Then, compare your cost vs. PG&E's cost. The estimator is a bit too low since it doesn't include tax and fees. I'd be very curious for you to post the result.

A Bay Area Leafer helped me calculate how much "fueling" a Leaf would cost for me at viewtopic.php?p=155519#p155519.
PV effectively caps electricity (which is EV fuel) costs wherever it is an option. You are only paying that much because you either cannot or choose not to install PV. Lifetime cost for grid-tied PV electricity in most of CA should be below $0.10/kWh WITHOUT any govenment incentives or TOU metering, just basic net metering.

People in the PNW do not have as many solar resources, but they have some of the cheapest electricity in the U.S.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
Posts: 9518
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: GM: 1 Million 30 MPG-Plus Vehicle Sales in 2012

Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:51 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:Sure they do. I think nearly everyone agrees that is their big risk. But so far it appears the Nissan LEAF has grown this "hill" faster than the Toyota Prius grew the hybrid "hill".

I'm not sure that's correct. There's a chart in the Feb. C/D or maybe it was MT comparing the sales rates of HEVs and BEVs/PHEVs over similar years (starting 2000 and 2008) and number of available models, and the HEVs are way ahead, year by year. Unfortunately it's not explicitly stated if this is U.S. sales only, or world.
It's correct. Even ignoring 1997, LEAF outsold Prius during it's first two years worldwide and during its first two years in U.S. Here is a post by mirko with formatted data he got from Wikipedia: Time Magazine declares LEAF a flop
mirko wrote:That Prius was a flop too. When it first came out. I wonder if Time magazine had an article about that too. :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius#Sales

Code: Select all

+---------------------------------------------------------+
|       Annual Prius sales worldwide and by region        |
|                    (in thousands)                       |
+------+-------+-------+---------+-------+--------+-------+
| Year | World | Japan |  North  |  U.S. | Europe | Other |
|      |       |       | America |       |        |       |
+------+-------+-------+---------+-------+--------+-------+
| 1997 |   0.3 |   0.3 |         |       |        |       |
| 1998 |  17.7 |  17.7 |         |       |        |       |
| 1999 |  15.2 |  15.2 |         |       |        |       |
| 2000 |  19.0 |  12.5 |     5.8 |   5.6 |    0.7 |  0.01 |
| 2001 |  29.5 |  11.0 |    16.0 |  15.6 |    2.3 |   0.2 |
| 2002 |  28.1 |   6.7 |    20.3 |  20.1 |    0.8 |   0.2 |
| 2003 |  43.2 |  17.0 |    24.9 |  24.6 |    0.9 |   0.4 |
| 2004 | 125.7 |  59.8 |    55.9 |  54.0 |    8.1 |   1.9 |
| 2005 | 175.2 |  43.7 |   109.9 | 107.9 |   18.8 |   2.9 |
| 2006 | 185.6 |  48.6 |   109.0 | 107.0 |   22.8 |   5.3 |
| 2007 | 281.3 |  58.3 |   183.8 | 181.2 |   32.2 |   7.0 |
| 2008 | 285.7 |  73.1 |   163.3 | 158.6 |   41.5 |   7.7 |
| 2009 | 404.2 | 208.9 |   144.3 | 139.7 |   42.6 |   8.4 |
+------+-------+-------+---------+-------+--------+-------+

The C/D numbers definitely disagree. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have that article up on their website; it's in the Feb. 2013 issue, "Upfront" section titled 'The Spark is Gone'.

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:I disagree - they need a TMS that heats as well as cools the battery, plus a well-insulated pack to make the car more viable in colder climates. Sure, the battery won't die from heat, but the range is so short when using lots of heat and defrost and driving on wet, snowy or icy roads that it just won't work for many people, and even if it does most won't accept the anxiety level. PHEVs are the answer for the moment in those conditions.
You are using words like "many" and "most". I never claimed the LEAF would work for most people. I claimed the LEAF would work fine for about 10 million commuters in the U.S. today, namely those having a commute between about 20 and 40 miles. Do you really think it won't work for many people in this group?

Yes, not because it won't work, but because it will never be given a chance to work. As I've said, mainstream consumers won't accept the price or the limitations. Now, increase the EPA range by 50% (100 miles being a psychological barrier, as Nissan's marketers well knew) and drop the price by a third (Nissan's priced the 'S' 20+% less than the cheapest Leaf last year) and mainstream consumers will be willing to take a look, and a relatively small but still useful number will buy. Boost the range by 100% and drop the price by half, and mainstream consumers will start buying in fairly large numbers. Triple the range and drop the price by 2/3rds, and they'll be beating on the doors of the dealers.

RegGuheert wrote:As far as battery TMS goes, I consider them to be a stopgap measure that will not last long in the history of EVs. I agree that the LEAFs current battery is not suited for Phoenix today without TMS, but that does not mean TMS is a good idea with a better battery solution.
GRA wrote:I'd love to see a battery that doesn't much care about temperature (hot OR cold), but don't expect it anytime soon.
High temperature batteries with 50% more capacity exist today (although I am unsure of the specific power). I don't know if Nissan plans to use that or similar technology in future LEAFs or not.

There are any number of exotic batteries that have been mentioned in the future battery technology thread, but we can't count on any of them to be commercialized. Battery R&D has always been slow, painful and expensive, so I count on nothing until it's on the market. In the meantime, TMS is the only feasible stopgap, barring a huge drop in battery prices.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6332
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: GM: 1 Million 30 MPG-Plus Vehicle Sales in 2012

Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:15 am

GRA wrote:The C/D numbers definitely disagree. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have that article up on their website; it's in the Feb. 2013 issue, "Upfront" section titled 'The Spark is Gone'.
The Prius sales numbers are the Prius sales numbers, regardless of what is written in the February 2013 issue of Car and Driver.

Here are some facts to consider:

- Both the Toyota Prius and the Nissan LEAF went on sale in December. If we ignore sales that first month, we can then compare full-year worldwide numbers starting in January, since numbers are typically tabulated by calendar year.
- Nissan sold as many LEAFS (probably slightly more) in the first TWO years of sales (2011-2012) than Toyota sold Prii in the first THREE years (1998-2000).
- Toyota did not sell their 100,000th Prius until the fifth full year of sales (2002).

I will predict:

- Nissan will sell more LEAFS in the first three years (2011-2013) than Toyota sold Prii in its first four years (1998-2001).
- Nissan will sell its 100,000th LEAF at least one year earlier than Toyota sold its 100,000th Prius. (Does anyone know the exact month Toyota sold the 100,000th Prius so that we can test this prediction?)
GRA wrote:Yes, not because it won't work, but because it will never be given a chance to work. As I've said, mainstream consumers won't accept the price or the limitations. Now, increase the EPA range by 50% (100 miles being a psychological barrier, as Nissan's marketers well knew) and drop the price by a third (Nissan's priced the 'S' 20+% less than the cheapest Leaf last year) and mainstream consumers will be willing to take a look, and a relatively small but still useful number will buy. Boost the range by 100% and drop the price by half, and mainstream consumers will start buying in fairly large numbers. Triple the range and drop the price by 2/3rds, and they'll be beating on the doors of the dealers.
No argument those things would be great. But, again, I will point out that even without those things the LEAF is already on a better sales trajectory than the Prius was when it was new. The incremental improvement approach will grow the LEAF market steady.

Will the LEAF continue to grow sales faster than the Prius grew its sales? Time will tell.

GRA wrote:There are any number of exotic batteries that have been mentioned in the future battery technology thread, but we can't count on any of them to be commercialized. Battery R&D has always been slow, painful and expensive, so I count on nothing until it's on the market. In the meantime, TMS is the only feasible stopgap, barring a huge drop in battery prices.
Fair enough. But the point is that the battery technology exists.

Yes, TMS is a feasible stopgap. But there are drawbacks to that approach and many LEAF customers prefer the simpler approach. Andy Palmer stated at the Phoenix town hall meeting that Nissan has made a decision to stick with air cooling for the battery in the LEAF, at least for the near term. So this leaves an issue in place for hot climates like Phoenix and Palm Springs and elsewhere. Hopefully the wording of the new warranty and local media and word-of-mouth in those locales will help people to know that they should either lease the LEAF or look elsewhere for an EV until it can be made more suitable for those climates.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

User avatar
evnow
Moderator
Posts: 11450
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:41 am
Delivery Date: 25 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 303
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: GM: 1 Million 30 MPG-Plus Vehicle Sales in 2012

Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:58 pm

Difficult to compare Prius & Leaf worldwide sales numbers.

Prius sold only in Japan for a few years. So, if you just compare Japan numbers, Prius sold more. If you just compare US numbers, Prius sold more from second year (not sure when it went on sale the first year).
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
Model 3 : 5/10/2018 to ?

Return to “Environmental Issues”