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EVDRIVER
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:27 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:
jlv wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:About the only things I see that you avoid with an EV are engine oil and filter changes, fuel and air filters. I guess with a Tesla you also avoid the 12V battery.
The S and X have a 12V battery.

Shows what I know. I thought they relied solely on the DC-DC converter, unlike LEAF and Bolt.

Just for laughs I looked up the recommended (required?) maintenance for Nissan ICEmobiles:

Oil/filter change every 6 months
Cabin air filter every 18 months
Brake fluid every 24 months
Engine air filter every 36 months
Spark plugs at 126 months

I don't see why changing the brake fluid every 24 months would be any more or less advisable on an EV than on an ICE, and the necessity of changing the cabin air filter is certainly something where you can skimp. Really all you're saving on the EV is the oil changes and a few air filters; that's rounding error in terms of ownership costs.



I believe they charge more to do brake fluid on the LEAF making it sound special. Regardless I never changed the brake fluid on my Tacoma and after 10 years I had it flushed and I live in a humid environment, they guy said it looked new and wondered why I wanted it flushed. Not saying that is advisable but coolant on an EV is not subjected to the same temp swings as it is on an EV and should not need flushing for a long time, same with brake fluid. Now let's get back to talking about how bad and late the model 3 will be...

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:57 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:Now let's get back to talking about how bad and late the model 3 will be...

Hear! Hear!
Almost feels like a big part of MNL's ongoing existence is to talk about "what's next", as the whole EV technology movement progresses at a snail's pace. Had it been like smartphones we'd be talking about picking up the latest EV for a couple hundred bucks on Amazon with 900 mile range and 15 second recharge time. Self driving of course.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:11 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:
jlv wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:About the only things I see that you avoid with an EV are engine oil and filter changes, fuel and air filters. I guess with a Tesla you also avoid the 12V battery.
The S and X have a 12V battery.

Shows what I know. I thought they relied solely on the DC-DC converter, unlike LEAF and Bolt. ....

What? What production electric cars do NOT have a 12v battery? I thought you needed it to start the computers and open the contacts to the high voltage battery for *safety* reason.


Message displayed before blue faded warning (vs white on DIC in X/S) to put more tension on the steering wheeling showing you are "hands on"

First Extended Look At Tesla Model 3 On Autopilot – Video
https://insideevs.com/first-extended-lo ... lot-video/
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:38 pm

The Ionic uses a lithium 12 volt sub-battery that is installed with the rest of the pack, and can be recharged from it either automatically or at will. Or at least the early version did...
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webb14leafs
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:34 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:About the only things I see that you avoid with an EV are engine oil and filter changes, fuel and air filters.


And:

Transmission Fluid
Starter
Alternator
Radiator Fluid
Radiator
Spark Plugs
Fuel Pump
Fuel Injector
Fuel Filter
Fuel Tank
Fuel Cleaning
belts/chains
fans
A variety of gaskets, seals and hoses
A variety of engine monitoring sensors

Over the life of a car all of these things will result in maintenance cost. I'm sure I'm forgetting a couple of things too.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:19 am

On my "$900" comment.
I advised him NOT to do it.
He was concerned it would invalidate his warranty. I told him, not likely. I do not know what he did since he did not update or mention it further, but if I had to guess, I say he either did it or paid for some crazy service plan.

Enough of that.

Someone said "It wouldn't affect the warranty like it would with a LEAF"

what maintenance item are we talking about?
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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:30 am

Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in!

Most of the things on that list aren't an issue on an ICE until the car is much older, when many people with means will have already moved on to a different vehicle. If you want to talk about things that can just plain break or wear out like a starter EVs have things that can fail too; I don't think there's nearly enough data to support conclusions there. Do you really want to take the bet that replacing a starter on an 11 year old Altima is going to be costlier than replacing a failed OBC on an eight year old LEAF or Tesla? Also some of the things on your list have counterparts on EVs, eg you still have a transaxle (without the trans) that may need a fluid service.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue

webb14leafs
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:12 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in!

Most of the things on that list aren't an issue on an ICE until the car is much older, when many people with means will have already moved on to a different vehicle. If you want to talk about things that can just plain break or wear out like a starter EVs have things that can fail too; I don't think there's nearly enough data to support conclusions there. Do you really want to take the bet that replacing a starter on an 11 year old Altima is going to be costlier than replacing a failed OBC on an eight year old LEAF or Tesla? Also some of the things on your list have counterparts on EVs, eg you still have a transaxle (without the trans) that may need a fluid service.


I disagree with the "Most" comment. Half or more of the items on that list apply within the first 60,000 miles. The remaining will likely be an issue between 100-150K miles (except the fuel tank). Depends on the car of course. The average person owns a car for 8 years. The average miles driven per year is around 13,000 - 15,000.

You're right that there are some maintenance costs for EVs that we simply don't know about yet. The big one that we do know is the cost of a new battery, should you choose to get one. Anything else, like a failed On Board Charger, is purely speculation.

For an ICE car "Most" of the maintenance is related to the engine. An EV replaces the engine with what is basically a "run to failure" component.

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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:31 am

webb14leafs wrote:I disagree with the "Most" comment. Half or more of the items on that list apply within the first 60,000 miles.

Maintenance and component/part failures are two different things.

None of the items on your list are scheduled maintenance items for a Nissan within the first 100k miles
Transmission Fluid
Starter
Alternator
Radiator Fluid
Radiator
Spark Plugs
Fuel Pump
Fuel Injector
Fuel Filter
Fuel Tank
Fuel Cleaning
belts/chains
fans
A variety of gaskets, seals and hoses
A variety of engine monitoring sensors


Sure any of those items can fail, but there is anecdotal commentary suggesting that none of those are likely to be anywhere near as painful as some esoteric thing failing on an EV.

Now back to the Model 3 :-)
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue

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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:37 am

webb14leafs wrote:You're right that there are some maintenance costs for EVs that we simply don't know about yet.

I will say this (and attempt to bring the discussion back on topic)...my first LEAF had to have its reduction gear assembly replaced. I had been (and continue to) tout that EVs are far cheaper vehicles to maintain and repair and the savings do add up (even if only marginally in the case of an expensive Model S or X). Between the almost complete lack of regular maintenance items and the fact that the EV drivetrain is far simpler than an ICE, it should be quite a bit cheaper to own an EV.

But wow, I was quite disappointed at my experience with the Nissan. For a few reasons. First, supposedly EVs don't have a transmission. Well technically true, but it does have this reduction gear, and boy was it expensive! It was a $2600 repair! We were able to get my son's ICE transmission rebuilt for less than half that amount. Second, not only did I feel the part died early (technically I was BARELY out of warranty--stupid me I didn't bring the car in until just after 60K miles because I was so focused on potentially losing my 4th bar and I didn't want the car to just sit in a parking lot for 2 weeks in the summer), but after posting about this here and on Facebook, and the fact that Nissan knew exactly what the problem was based on just my description, I infer that this is actually a fairly common problem!

Now fortunately Nissan did offer me out of warranty assistance so I didn't have to pay the $2600 myself (or at least not all of it). And I am willing to posit that perhaps this was due to the fact that it was a first generation LEAF and maybe parts quality was not yet mature.

However, to bring it back on topic, let's not fall into the trap of thinking that the Model 3 won't be in the same boat. Most of us that have reservations and will take delivery in the first year are going to be buying a car that almost certainly will have more issues than say either a 2023 Model 3 or a more established ICE vehicle today. If part of your justification for buying the Model 3 (or by extension, any Tesla) is that it's going to be far cheaper to maintain & repair, let's dispel that right away. While the drivetrain may be simpler, it's also "newer" and failures will be more likely to occur. And if/when they do occur, they will likely be quite expensive due to their relative rarity and lack of a good aftermarket supply chain build up. I'm not saying the cars will be junk either. Any individual owner may have great luck and have nothing go wrong. Just if we look at the total population, I do think that initially the cost spent on maintenance & repair per capita will certainly not be zero, and in fact may not even be all that competitive with reliable ICE vehicles.
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