What would you pay to "upgrade" from 2012 SL to 2013 SV?

[Mukarram2000]

Upgrade to 2013? Zero. Even the 2011 is fine to me.

I feel ya....the reasons I would like to get 2013 is better heater hybrid, a new regen mode and 6.6 kW charger..... I live in Maryland and the winter takes down miles here...

I would love to trade mine is and pay nothing to get a 2013 but that is not a reality unfortunately....

 

[smkettner]

^^^^ Those all sound like range issues. 2013 will help but I have doubts it will be a real cure. More range is the only reason I would pay to upgrade and those features just do not provide enough. If it works for you, go for it.

 

[Mukarram2000]

^^^^ Those all sound like range issues. 2013 will help but I have doubts it will be a real cure. More range is the only reason I would pay to upgrade and those features just do not provide enough. If it works for you, go for it.

Agreed....but the brutal cold weather is a killer and heater sucks the battery out in Maryland...I still have to read reviews on the new hybrid heater system....also not sure how good is the regen......I own a Volt as well and I LOVE regen in thar car........

 

[RonDawg]

Keep in mind that the "hybrid heater" is little more than a heat pump with a backup resistive heater, no different than a heat pump for the home. And like with home systems, heat pumps are only effective down to a certain temperature.

I don't know at what point the Leaf's heat pump becomes ineffective, but I've seen figures for home units anywhere from +17 F to as much as +35 F. If temps where you are regularly fall below freezing, a 2013 Leaf may not offer you improved range under such conditions.

 

[surfingslovak]

Keep in mind that the "hybrid heater" is little more than a heat pump with a backup resistive heater, no different than a heat pump for the home. And like with home systems, heat pumps are only effective down to a certain temperature.

I don't know at what point the Leaf's heat pump becomes ineffective, but I've seen figures for home units anywhere from +17 F to as much as +35 F. If temps where you are regularly fall below freezing, a 2013 Leaf may not offer you improved range under such conditions.

While this has been repeated often enough, a heat pump becomes as inefficient as a resistive heater around 10 F. It's typically 3 to 4 times more efficient at 50 F, and somewhere in-between at 30 F. A lot will likely depend on the individual implementation, but it's not fair to say that a heat pump offers no benefit around the freezing point. It could be twice as efficient as a resistive heater at that ambient temperature, which is significant.

 

[RonDawg]

Just like differently sized air conditioners are going to have differing levels of effectiveness, I don't see why that wouldn't apply to heat pumps, which are just A/C units running in reverse. I'm sure that given a large enough coil, and a large enough compressor, that a heat pump could work to +10 F. But given the packaging realities of a car, I'm not sure a heat pump sized for a Leaf (and it's 12 volt battery) would necessarily be that effective.

I am not an HVAC guy, but the figures I quoted above came from a few HVAC websites.

 

[surfingslovak]

I am not an HVAC guy, but the figures I quoted above came from a few HVAC websites.

Neither am I, but I'm getting tired seeing this statement being repeated without any substantiation. While the efficiency of the heat pump will be noticeably impacted around 30 F, I don't think that it's prudent to make it sound like there won't be any benefit in such conditions over a resistive heater, regardless of the source. There was not enough opportunity to test the heating system earlier this year, but I'm sure that we will hear more than enough on the topic in a few months.

 

[RonDawg]

I am not an HVAC guy, but the figures I quoted above came from a few HVAC websites.

Neither am I, but I'm getting tired seeing this statement being repeated without any substantiation. While the efficiency of the heat pump will be noticeably impacted around 30 F, I don't think that it's prudent to make it sound like there won't be any benefit in such conditions over a resistive heater, regardless of the source. There was not enough opportunity to test the heating system earlier this year, but I'm sure that we will hear more than enough on the topic in a few months.

Well, the US Government themselves are saying the backup heat for a heat pump typically kicks in at +40 F as per http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/air-source-heat-pumps" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also note that my original statement was "regularly fall below freezing." That can mean 31 F, or -31 F. I never said that the heat pump would stop working right at 32 F, nor did I imply such. I did imply that range may be impacted due to the car's increased reliance on resistive heating in order to maintain the desired cabin temp. In deed, the term "hybrid heater" implies that under some circumstances, both the heat pump and resistive heater can be asked to work simultaneously to supply the desired cabin heat.

As far as substantiation, I've quoted the US government, and a quick re-check of Google is again showing a similar range of temps to what I earlier posted.

 

[surfingslovak]

OK, I did my best to find the data presented at the 2013 LEAF introduction last year. I tried to get higher resolution, but I couldn't. I'm sorry, but I hope that this puts it to rest.

To be clear, this is not the first time that I see the effectiveness of the heat pump used in an EV to be questioned. According to the data presented by the LEAF engineering team, a significant benefit can be expected around 0°C, and the ambient temperature would have to go down to about -15°C for the heat pump to stop offering a benefit over the heater used in the previous model year. If you find more relevant references, please post it.

I don't meant to be splitting hairs, but your statement posted upthread does not seem to be in agreement with the data presented above. If you wish to define "below freezing" as -31F, then absolutely, the heat pump won't offer any benefit. I think it would not be fair to represent this in a misleading way to new LEAF owners however, and some of them could get the wrong idea when hearing this.

If temps where you are regularly fall below freezing, a 2013 Leaf may not offer you improved range under such conditions.

 

[RonDawg]

OK, -15 C is + 5 F. Lower than I expected, but there are some regions in the US that get colder than that in winter. Which goes back to what I was saying earlier...depending on how cold it gets where you are, a new Leaf with the hybrid heater may not improve you range significantly over a 2011/2012, so it may not be worth it to exit a lease early in order to get one.

As far as misleading people...my statement which you take issue with was particularly aimed at someone who was contemplating trading up to a 2013, and likely taking some loss on his older car. For someone buying/leasing their first Leaf, it's not really an issue unless they are debating getting an S vs. an SV or SL.

 

[surfingslovak]

OK, -15 C is + 5 F. Lower than I expected, but there are some regions in the US that get colder than that in winter. Which goes back to what I was saying earlier...depending on how cold it gets here you are, a new Leaf with the hybrid heater may not improve you range significantly, especially if you are planning to exit a lease early in order to get one.

Yes, agreed. However "below freezing" can mean a lot of things. It would be better to offer a more accurate representation along with some examples. I have heard new owners getting worried that they won't be able to make their commute when it's 30 F outside. We won't help anyone by fueling fears or misconceptions. That's my whole point. I don't wish to argue about semantics. The last thing I want to do is point fingers or split hairs.

 

[RonDawg]

I used "below freezing" to denote some point in the thermometer where it becomes inefficient. As the information I got varied quite a bit on the actual temperature, the last thing I wanted to do was quote an exact temp. But most of the sources that I saw quoted temps somewhere below 32 F, thus my use of the generic "below freezing."

 

[surfingslovak]

I used "below freezing" to denote some point in the thermometer where it becomes inefficient. As the information I got varied quite a bit on the actual temperature, the last thing I wanted to do was quote an exact temp. But most of the sources that I saw quoted temps somewhere below 32 F, thus my use of the generic "below freezing."

That's fair, and I only brought this up is because I heard something similar elsewhere, and it took me some effort to get to the bottom of it. I think it's important to know the limits, since this will be a popular topic next winter.

 

[TimLee]

I used "below freezing" to denote some point in the thermometer where it becomes inefficient. As the information I got varied quite a bit on the actual temperature, the last thing I wanted to do was quote an exact temp. But most of the sources that I saw quoted temps somewhere below 32 F, thus my use of the generic "below freezing."

You are failing to recognize that heat pump technology has changed a lot in the last 10 to 15 years.
The traditional home heat pump did end up depending on resistance heat somewhere between 17 F and 32 F.
But Japanese and European manufacturers began making very efficient mini-split heat pump systems about 20 years ago. It took a while for them to go into common use in the US, but within the past 5 to 7 years they have become the accepted correct way to do heat pump home systems in the US.
They operate very efficiently to much lower temperatures than the old style home heat pump systems. Some of them do not depend on resistance heat until temperatures as low as -5 F to 5 F. Based on the chart on the LEAF hybrid heating system, it apparently only depends on resistance heat below 5 F.

 

[RonDawg]

I used "below freezing" to denote some point in the thermometer where it becomes inefficient. As the information I got varied quite a bit on the actual temperature, the last thing I wanted to do was quote an exact temp. But most of the sources that I saw quoted temps somewhere below 32 F, thus my use of the generic "below freezing."

You are failing to recognize that heat pump technology has changed a lot in the last 10 to 15 years.
The traditional home heat pump did end up depending on resistance heat somewhere between 17 F and 32 F.
But Japanese and European manufacturers began making very efficient mini-split heat pump systems about 20 years ago. It took a while for them to go into common use in the US, but within the past 5 to 7 years they have become the accepted correct way to do heat pump home systems in the US.
They operate very efficiently to much lower temperatures than the old style home heat pump systems. Some of them do not depend on resistance heat until temperatures as low as -5 F to 5 F. Based on the chart on the LEAF hybrid heating system, it apparently only depends on resistance heat below 5 F.

I understand that. I already admitted that I didn't know at what point the Leaf's hybrid heater system becomes no more efficient than the old resistance style unit. My figures came from a Google search of the sentence "At what point does a heat pump become ineffective?" Yes those gave back hits on home and business heat pump systems, but heat pumps in cars are a relatively new occurrence, since traditionally the ICE could provide far more heat than actually needed for the cabin. I'm sure heat pumps have improved, but I can only go by what I find on the internet as far as supporting data is concerned.

I will admit I was wrong with my doubts about the Leaf's hybrid heater being efficient down to +10 F, because apparently it is efficient to +5 F. But the actual temp was less of my concern, than a warning to the person I was replying specifically to that he may not find the gains he had hoped for, all while presumably taking a bath on the trade. He said he lived in Maryland, which I know gets snow, so I felt it was important to mention the caveat. If that same person lived in SoCal, I probably would not have said anything.

This is an interesting discussion (really it is) but it belongs in its own thread, and we shouldn't further derail the initial discussion as to how much one is willing to take a bath in order to upgrade to a '13.

 

[TimLee]

... but I can only go by what I find on the internet as far as supporting data is concerned.

... a warning to the person I was replying specifically to that he may not find the gains he had hoped for, all while presumably taking a bath on the trade.

And that's the problem with the internet, people grab data that is 5 to 10 years out of date and fail to recognize it. You cannot just trust what you get with a quick google search of the internet. It is an incomplete inadequate perspective.
I agree with your point that the person considering switching to 2013 SV or SL LEAF due to the hybrid heater needs to recognize that it still has limitations. Even in its improved operation down to 5 F it still takes energy and isn't a magic bullet that will completely eliminate range reduction in the winter.
The AC system is very efficient, and I use it without much concern about its impact on range. But on a really hot day when you first turn it on, it can pull 3 kW for quite a few minutes until the vehicle cools down.
A 2013 LEAF with the hybrid heater will be the same way even in its effective operating range down to 5 F. Likely a big power draw for some period of time till the vehicle heats up.
And electric vehicle battery range will always be substantially reduced when the battery is cold. There is no way to avoid that. Can only minimize the impact by keeping the vehicle in a heated garage while at home. No way to avoid that impact when the vehicle is parked at work outside in the cold.

 

[Mukarram2000]

Thank you to BOTH of you for educating me on the system.

As I said previously, I own the 2012 SL and it is not lease... So the only question is how much is okay to pay more to get the 2013 SV (leaving out the taxes and registeration). By the way, if I do trade in my 2012 Leaf, I do not pay taxes!!! as MD has brought back the tax credit for sales tax. Of course, I will also be eligible for $7500 credit.

So how much is okay enough? to pay more for a better heater, regen feature and 6.6 kW charger. Of course, I would be going from a car with 10,000 miles on the car to a brand new car so that ought to mean something....

Alternatively, I do not believe that 2013 S provides either of those features!

Mukarram

 

[Rauv]

Fellas-

I did trade in my loaded MY12 for a new loaded (w/o premium package tho) 2013 for the reasons already discussed: faster charger and better heating system. Love the instant heat on cool mornings. What I didn't realize was how much better the seat comfort and support was with the new leather seats. Yes, I lost a backup camera which was really nice when parking, but I'll survive.

I took a bath on the exchange, but I'm still glad I did it and I'm also glad I didn't wait any longer than I did. I put just over 13K miles on the 2012 SL over 12 months and got a trade in amount of just under $20K. The dealer gave me a good price (under invoice) on the 2013 and threw in a 1K loyalty rebate. I was able to finance 5 years at 0.9 percent from NMAC. Again, this was not a financially responsible decision, but a car is NOT an investment.

 

[Mukarram2000]

Fellas-

I did trade in my loaded MY12 for a new loaded (w/o premium package tho) 2013 for the reasons already discussed: faster charger and better heating system. Love the instant heat on cool mornings. What I didn't realize was how much better the seat comfort and support was with the new leather seats. Yes, I lost a backup camera which was really nice when parking, but I'll survive.

I took a bath on the exchange, but I'm still glad I did it and I'm also glad I didn't wait any longer than I did. I put just over 13K miles on the 2012 SL over 12 months and got a trade in amount of just under $20K. The dealer gave me a good price (under invoice) on the 2013 and threw in a 1K loyalty rebate. I was able to finance 5 years at 0.9 percent from NMAC. Again, this was not a financially responsible decision, but a car is NOT an investment.

Been to three dealers. No one is offering more than $17,600 for my 2012 SL... Our Leaf is about 18 months old though.... but it has only now 11,000 miles......With the purchase of 2013 SV, it does look like I have to pay around $6000.... I will get the loyalty rebate as well.

Did you get the base SV model or with some option. If you can tell me what they sold you the 2013 SV Leaf for prior to any state rebates or loyalty rebates - so basically the sale price and MSRP, that would be great so I know what price I should have them come down to for the 2013 SV.

Thanks again!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Keep in mind that the "hybrid heater" is little more than a heat pump with a backup resistive heater, no different than a heat pump for the home. And like with home systems, heat pumps are only effective down to a certain temperature.

I don't know at what point the Leaf's heat pump becomes ineffective, but I've seen figures for home units anywhere from +17 F to as much as +35 F. If temps where you are regularly fall below freezing, a 2013 Leaf may not offer you improved range under such conditions.

While this has been repeated often enough, a heat pump becomes as inefficient as a resistive heater around 10 F. It's typically 3 to 4 times more efficient at 50 F, and somewhere in-between at 30 F. A lot will likely depend on the individual implementation, but it's not fair to say that a heat pump offers no benefit around the freezing point. It could be twice as efficient as a resistive heater at that ambient temperature, which is significant.

which is the exact problem. I dont need heat when its 50º. In fact, its almost that cold nearly every morning in the Summer and i always drive the 5 miles to the freeway with both front windows down because i would sweat while drinking hot coffee. There is no improvement to an already efficient heater and range improvements are not worth the extra money. But in my case, if I had more time on my lease, i might have done it to save money but i put too much down and only have 7 months left so i am good.