Utility PG&E scapegoating EVs for their equipment failures

[brucedp]

EVS use "three households worth of energy" ... 'Get Real'
PG&E is notorious for shifting blame for their Corp. greed


OK, so EVs are now so mainstream now that a California Utility uses
EVs as a scapegoat for them not doing the job they are paid to do.

This is not going to be the last time a company will use EVs as a
scapegoat, so I suggest that drivers give their views to the media
outlets as comments on the first two URLs below and a comment
on the PUC site as well.

Included are examples of how PG&E has failed to do its job.
They take the consumer's money, but do not do what they told
the PUC they would do.





http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/san_francisco&id=8406900" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Transformer explosion leaves some in the dark Oct 26 2011
...
Roughly 275 PG&E customers lost power because of the equipment
failure, according to a PG&E spokesman. The utility is still
investigating what caused the problem.

"Typically these types of failures occur when there's a spike in power
demand," PG&E spokesman Jason King said this morning.

That spike in demand, King said, can be caused by the introduction of
a power-hungry device, such as an electric car, equipment for a home
office or an indoor grow operation.

He urged customers to alert PG&E if they plan to use a device that
needs that much power so that the company can anticipate increases in
demand.

An electric car can require as much as three households worth of
energy, King said, which he said is why PG&E works with electric car
dealers so that it is notified when customers bring new cars on the
grid.

As of this morning, PG&E had not yet identified what caused the
failure.

King did not have information about the age of the equipment or
frequency of such failures.

"They're not a common occurrence, but they do happen," he said ...


http://sfappeal.com/news/2011/10/pge-still-trying-to-figure-out-what-caused-fireball-shooting-transformer-explosion.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
PG&E Still Trying To Figure Out What Caused Fireball-Shooting
Transformer Explosion by Patricia Decker Oct 26 2011
...
That spike in demand, King said, can be caused by the introduction of
a power-hungry device, such as an electric car ...

An electric car can require as much as three households worth of
energy, King said, which he said is why PG&E works with electric car
dealers so that it is notified when customers bring new cars on the
grid.


-

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_19159663" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Inspection prompts PG&E to examine overhead electrical lines
By Steve Johnson 10/21/2011
PG&E plans to reinspect 16,400 overhead transformers and other
electrical equipment ... after an internal investigation found more
than two dozen instances where its inspectors had falsely claimed to
have checked underground electrical gear, a company spokesman said ...


http://www.turn.org/article.php?id=388" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Outages identify PG&E's limits ... PG&E's distribution-system worries
extend beyond its transformers ... More than half of the company's
substations are at least 50 years old ...


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/22/MNU41LFO41.DTL" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
PG&E knew of many leaks in San Bruno pipeline

-


California Public Utilities Commission (PUC)
http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/puc/contactus/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;













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Read EVLN posts]

{brucedp.150m.com}

 

[EricBayArea]

I notified PG&E before I got my Leaf (something I read to do on this forum). I don't think it's unreasonable for them to ask people who are going to be drawing large amounts of power to notify them. I'd like to think they can anticipate usage based on history but in all reality, if I bought an EV and started to cultivate plants in my new indoor greenhouse, I don't think they would see that coming

I don't take his comments as blame against EVs (or home growers). Just an example of something that draws more than the expected amount of power. I'm sure if I didn't notify PG&E, nothing would have happened. And hopefully in the months after I started drawing a lot of power, some data in some some report for my area would show someone at PG&E that the demand for power in my area is now higher. But proactive notification is always better.

My $0.02

 

[DeaneG]

Certainly our Leafs can't pull as much as three average households.

A Tesla Roadster can charge at 16kW for four hours. Maybe that's what started the PG&E comment. My house's typical peak load is about 5-6kW when the dryer or both A/C units are running.

 

[padamson1]

An EV draws three households worth of power? Serious FUD.

I assume they are talking peak draw since nobodys power bill quadrupled after they bought their LEAF? A QC charger maybe, a 3.3kW charger? Only if those households have no oven, electric dryer, AC, hot tub or electric heat. Given most houses have at least two of those items and many three or more, an EV might peak draw as much as one household, but even that is a pretty efficient house. I suppose if I was doing a full 100% battery charge and I compared that to houses that weren't doing anything but lights I could get my LEAF to peak more than three households worth, but the average peak draw of an American house will still handily beat an EV (A Ford Focus with its 6.6kW charger might have a stronger draw than an average house, but it still won't be more than two).

I really wish new reporters actually did research what they print instead parroting crap from a single source. At least most people realize that FOX and its propaganda are a joke, but I expect 5min of Google work from any newspaper rag reporter before he prints something.

Unfortunately, as just about anybody with a brain who reads the news knows...that is asking way too much.

 

[brucedp]

Even if it was two Tesla EVs each charging off their own HPC (70Amp)
AC source they meant, that isn't what they said, they said electrics
(in general). And that is the problem. The public is still clueless when
it comes to EVs, and the PG&E spokesperson's words uses EVS to
detract from their irresponsibility.

The public reading the article does not know the Leaf and Volt have only
3kW on-board chargers. And even the new Ford Focus Electric coming
on sale in the first quarter of 2012 has a 7.6kW on-board charger. 7.6kW
is not three times the power of a household.

In the same sentence: "an indoor grow operation", EVs a compared to
recent news reports of cannabis growing operations that were found by
fires starting in overloaded power panels/boxes.

EVs are being lumped in together with the bad guys to deflect the public's
attention from the fact that PG&E should have had regular updating of
their old tired equipment.

Stay focused on what PG&E doing: besmirching all EVs, which includes
Leaf 's. Are you going to talk yourself out of doing anything, or not
let PG&E get away with not doing their job?

-Bruce

 

[curtegg]

Maybe they should request the demand utilization from the marijuana home growers :lol:


My monthly electric bill has not changed dramatically. But since I get away with charging my Leaf on average once a week or less and I still stay within Tier 1 rate level because my home is so efficient (have many trees keeping the house shaded till afternoon hours - I'm passively green). I guess at that rate I will have fewer recharge cycles on my batteries for good lifetime degradation test.

 

[DarkStar]

I notified PG&E before I got my Leaf (something I read to do on this forum). I don't think it's unreasonable for them to ask people who are going to be drawing large amounts of power to notify them.

If the Leaf (or any other EV) used "large amounts" of power I would completely agree, however the equivalent of 1/2 a electric clothes dryer or two hair dryers isn't a "large amount".

 

[ElectricVehicle]

An EV draws three households worth of power? Serious FUD.

3.3 kW vs. the average draw they use of 1 kW per house. But the air conditioner also uses 3-5 households worth of power, and if you're running the electric clothes dryer - Whoah! 5-7 households worth, and the electric oven, pool pump or jacuzzi - well ... !

Their quick to single out EVs, so they can blame something else besides neglect of their facilities and not doing the upgrades required over the last 30 years to handle increased residential power demand from devices added to the household like air conditioning, larger TVs, computers - each is small, but in a neighborhood that hasn't been upgraded for the load, the equipment is running beyond their specifications and in hot days or heavy loads it will fail. PG&E also knows that if they identify the real source of increased load - Air Conditioning - they'll be laughed at by everyone, so blame it on the EVs! Go to the reader comments on these stories and comment that the neglected maintenance by PG&E for increased load over the last several decades is at fault and air conditioners are what really drives the black outs and failures. Mulitple EVs on a block do require some planning and possible upgrades by PG&E, but the same is true of adding that many air conditioners at once! It's also PG&E's responsibility to put in over current devices or fuses to protect their equipment from overload, regardless of the source. When PG&E fails to do that is when the transformer explodes. It's a good thing PG&E doesn't design or sell laptops or phones, because their mismanagement of electrical devices would have the lithium batteries exploding all the time. Then they'd blame the user for using too much talk time. This is a PG&E failure to properly maintain, upgrade and protect their own equipment.

 

[TomT]

They don't call them Pacific Graft and Extortion for no good reason...

 

[Volt3939]

They don't call them Pacific Graft and Extortion for no good reason...

+1

PGE has shifted from a policy of replacing equipment based on useful life expectancy, i.e., planned preventative maintenance, to a policy of replacing only failed equipment. The are trading public safety for increased profit...

It's time the PUC is inundated with complaints on these practices.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I have a client that base a $5k a month electric bill. The draw about 2.5kw when everything is off. Lighting controls, etc on a 10K sq ft home. I don't recall PG&E asking them to be notified. They have a 600A service! I wonder what PG&E says when two people are using hair dryers in a home in the AM plus a microwave? What home office is a huge load? One that has 20 servers? :lol: :lol: Where was PG&E pointing fingers when hot tubs went in? My old one had a 5Kw heater plus several high HP pumps.

 

[Herm]

Its bad when a monopoly company does not even do proactive maintenance.. Do they think customers are going to leave if they raise the rates?

 

[brucedp]

[*fyi - the original newswire piece had a statement from utility PG&E (Pacific Gas and Electric) which provides utilities for a large portion of California and in some other locations. PG&E should not be confused with any other utility using the same abbreviation (i.e. PGE Portland Gas and Electric, etc.).

Those that do not know of or use PG&E should know they have a long history of not doing what they are paid to do: maintain the Natural Gas and Electrical transmission equipment. PG&E has been raking in the profits without doing the work, and you can look to PG&E's current & former CEO's, and the parent company management for that direction/instruction/guidance.

The newswire is only about a transformer fire which while a serious concern because of old aging equipment failures, customer down time, fires spreading the damage, and possible chemical contamination (PCBs), is a small incident when compared to a San Bruno fire from a ruptured natural gas main that took out a city block+. There many other PG&E incidents, but I do not want to start an off-topic rant, but only mention that PG&E do not have the public's interest at heart.

PG&E linemen I have talked to have expressed this to me, and are not happy about the shenanigans PG&E upper management pull. These linemen put their lives on the line to ensure power gets to the public. The last thing they want is to to be known working for company that does not do what they are suppose to.

Consumers are at a point in time where CEO's can and will try to get away with anything, and even when they fail, they walk away with millions. Consumers have to spend time watch-dogging them, and when companies cross the line, consumers will have to spend time holding these companies' feet to the fire / holding them accountable. You can not just trust they have your back or care about the public as much as they care about profits. Those days are gone, excessive greed is in.]

 

[tps]

Electric power usage as of 2009:
http://www.eia.gov/cneaf/electricity/esr/table5.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks as if an average household uses 521 to over 1200 kWh per month. How much does the average LEAF use per month? I'm projecting I'll average (when I get my LEAF) roughly 10 kWh / day which comes to 300 kWh per month, not even what 1 average household uses. Not sure how they can say that 1 EV uses as much power as 3 households...

 

[EricH]

Electric power usage as of 2009:
http://www.eia.gov/cneaf/electricity/esr/table5.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks as if an average household uses 521 to over 1200 kWh per month. How much does the average LEAF use per month? I'm projecting I'll average (when I get my LEAF) roughly 10 kWh / day which comes to 300 kWh per month, not even what 1 average household uses. Not sure how they can say that 1 EV uses as much power as 3 households...

I'm not picking sides here, but the California utilities' concerns around distribution equipment are specific. First, the average EV uses, in a few (figure probably 3-7) hours per day, as much as one or more households use all day, so it is the demand (nearly 4kW for a Leaf, and double for any 6.6kW car) that is the issue. Most households don't have any single appliance that draws 4kW on a constant basis for several hours. Second, even if the EV charges off-peak, that can cause issues in the summer, when pole-top transformers heat up during the day (A/C usage + high ambient temps), but can't cool off at night if they are providing 4kW load to one or more houses with EV's.

This is why utilities are trying to find out when their customers get EV's, to make sure the local transformer/etc are able to handle the load -- especially if your neighbor who shares your transformer thinks your Leaf is so cool he runs out and gets one (or a Volt). But neither the customer, dealership, nor manufacturer is obligated to inform the utility.

In my view, if a customer fails to let the utility know of his/her EV, and reliability suffers, shame on the customer (for the inconvenience he causes his neighbors, at the very least; everyone in urban areas shares a transformer with at least 3-4 neighbors in most places). If the utility knows, and doesn't make appropriate upgrades (if needed), shame on the utility.

 

[brucedp]

There is now a second utility to blame EVs without any facts
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6683" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and my post
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Utility-Duke-Energy-too-quick-to-point-house-fire-blame-on-EVs-tp4016726p4016726.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do not just sit on the sidelines and only talk about it. Post comments on the offending newswire pages stating the facts that will offset this disinformation on EVs. Like a fire, you need to nip these in the bud and hold both the utilities and the media outlets accountable for inaccurate PR / press journalism.


{brucedp.150m.com}

 

[GPowers]

The Leaf does not come close the power draw that happens when we have both A/C units on.

 

[tps]

Electric power usage as of 2009:
http://www.eia.gov/cneaf/electricity/esr/table5.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks as if an average household uses 521 to over 1200 kWh per month. How much does the average LEAF use per month? I'm projecting I'll average (when I get my LEAF) roughly 10 kWh / day which comes to 300 kWh per month, not even what 1 average household uses. Not sure how they can say that 1 EV uses as much power as 3 households...

First, the average EV uses, in a few (figure probably 3-7) hours per day, as much as one or more households use all day, so it is the demand (nearly 4kW for a Leaf, and double for any 6.6kW car) that is the issue. Most households don't have any single appliance that draws 4kW on a constant basis for several hours.

OK, lets get the terminology straight:
1. Energy usage is measured in kWh. Per my example, the LEAF does not use as much as 1 household.
2. Instantaneous power usage is measured in kW. Demand is sort of peak power usage measured in a very specific, specified manner which removes inrush power. Demand is used to size the "pipe" coming into the home. The LEAF has a demand similar to an electric clothes dryer. A 6.6 kW EV charger might be similar in demand to an electric range and oven. These types of devices are not unknown to the utility. If the LEAF is not charging while the clothes are drying, even though energy usage is increased, demand is not. This type of "load speading" is what commencial energy management systems do in order to reduce demand changes.

In the worst case, a consumer could turn on every electrical device in the house at once and cause a large demand. But given that LEAFs, unlike many other devices, have (somewhat imperfect) charging timers, and that utilities often offer off-peak savings to incentivize consumers to use these timers to charge when overall demand is less, adding a LEAF should be less of a problem than adding a normal large electrical applicance.

 

[EricH]

OK, lets get the terminology straight:
1. Energy usage is measured in kWh. Per my example, the LEAF does not use as much as 1 household.
2. Instantaneous power usage is measured in kW. Demand is sort of peak power usage measured in a very specific, specified manner which removes inrush power. Demand is used to size the "pipe" coming into the home. The LEAF has a demand similar to an electric clothes dryer. A 6.6 kW EV charger might be similar in demand to an electric range and oven. These types of devices are not unknown to the utility. If the LEAF is not charging while the clothes are drying, even though energy usage is increased, demand is not. This type of "load speading" is what commencial energy management systems do in order to reduce demand changes.

In the worst case, a consumer could turn on every electrical device in the house at once and cause a large demand. But given that LEAFs, unlike many other devices, have (somewhat imperfect) charging timers, and that utilities often offer off-peak savings to incentivize consumers to use these timers to charge when overall demand is less, adding a LEAF should be less of a problem than adding a normal large electrical applicance.

Your kWh/kW definition is clear and accurate. The utility concern, at least in California, is that large numbers of customers arriving home and plugging in straightaway, on top of their existing usage, could literally move the system peak demand time later in the day, and add to the peak demand. The issue is kW, not kWh. Off-peak charging minimizes these concerns, which is why utilities urge TOU rates and nighttime charging.

I don't think (and didn't mean to infer) that EV load is somehow magical, or multiples of other existing technologies (say, a large central A/C unit, an electric dryer, or 4-5 1500-watt hairdryers or microwaves, as some have pointed out). But combined, widespread adoption of EV's have the potential to impact distribution circuits (are people in neighborhoods, today, adding central air conditioning by the thousands, where it didn't previously exist?), and transmission and generation systems (the potential shifting/increase of peak demand, absent off-peak incentives, as noted above). I noted that some concerns remain (nighttime loading of transformers from off-peak charging in summer could keep transformers 'simmering', accelerating component failures), which is why California utilities are doing circuit analyses when customers inform them of new EV load.

The title of this thread suggests concerns that not all utilities are responding to this in a consistent or clear manner (or worse). But there are legitimate concerns on the part of utilities, especially if EV's achieve the level of sales/acceptance that most of us on this forum are fervently hoping for (myself included).

 

[padamson1]

The title of this thread suggests concerns that not all utilities are responding to this in a consistent or clear manner (or worse). But there are legitimate concerns on the part of utilities, especially if EV's achieve the level of sales/acceptance that most of us on this forum are fervently hoping for (myself included).

EricH is correct that utilities need to be concerned, especially at the transformer level, about the additional instantaneous load from EV charging. (Check http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=will-electric-cars-wreck-the-grid). However I believe it is this statement by the utility that is drawing our MNL ire:

"An electric car can require as much as three households worth of energy, King said, which he said is why PG&E works with electric car dealers so that it is notified when customers bring new cars on the grid."

There is no way peak load (kW) or average demand (kWh) of an EV is equivalent to 3 households unless they are only counting houses without ANY modern large appliances such as an electric oven, dryer, hot tub or A/C. There are, of course, many houses in poorer neighborhoods do not, so maybe he's talking about them, but he ain't talking about the average California home for sure. But even with underfunded houses it's still one, maybe two house's worth at best.

As for additional capacity requirement, as long as we charge at night over 70% of our cars can be replaced by EV's without adding power plants (see http://www.environmentwashington.or...s-oil-consumption-and-unhealthy-air-pollution skip the CO2 stuff and go to the power analysis). Most of this is excess nuclear energy capacity when the steam is just vented instead of running generators during off peak hours (because the reaction can't be spun down like a coal or gas fired plant) see http://www.torquenews.com/397/senator-alexander-unused-electricity-our-greatest-national-resource).

I think most of the gripes on this thread are that the utility is being disingenuous at best, or at worst spreading FUD to cover their own incompetence at maintaining their network.