Total kwhr required to full charge

[sanghi]

Hello everyone,

I am driving Nissan Leaf 2012 about a month, I knew that it has 24kwhr battery power, but I am charging at office location using ChargePoint, the kwhr require to full charge seems not correct, maximum i was able to put on the car is 15khr from one bar left, today's activity from 6 bars left, it takes only 9kwhr. Can someone answer me why, it is not close to 12khwr, 6 bars equivalent to 12kwhr.

On other hand, I can only drive about 50-60 miles per full charge (50% highway/50% city) with 4.0/miles per khwr. Does this make sense.

Any charge point screen shots with bar left information would be nice and appreciated.

Thanks for your help.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

It would seem to be something wrong with the ChargePoint unit.

Are you also charging at home? Are you using the L1 EVSE that came with your car? If so, you can get a Kill-A-Watt meter to measure the charge at home.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...5001&cm_re=Kill-A-Watt-_-82-715-001-_-Product

It actually takes ~15-20% more electricity to charge the battery pack, because of the cumulative losses throughout the process. This is normal.

 

[sanghi]

Thanks NeilBlanchard for your reply, I will get that Kill-A-Watt Meter and check it out and update later.

At mean time do you have or you know some info? How much kwhr power required to charge 24kwhr power batter in average?

 

[epirali]

Hello everyone,

I am driving Nissan Leaf 2012 about a month, I knew that it has 24kwhr battery power, but I am charging at office location using ChargePoint, the kwhr require to full charge seems not correct, maximum i was able to put on the car is 15khr from one bar left, today's activity from 6 bars left, it takes only 9kwhr. Can someone answer me why, it is not close to 12khwr, 6 bars equivalent to 12kwhr.

On other hand, I can only drive about 50-60 miles per full charge (50% highway/50% city) with 4.0/miles per khwr. Does this make sense.

Any charge point screen shots with bar left information would be nice and appreciated.

Thanks for your help.

How many battery bars do you have? Some of the "error" may be from battery degradation.

 

[Reddy]

Many smarter people than I spent lots of time understanding the ins/outs of the 2011/12 Leaf. You can and should spend some time reading old threads going back 5 years to learn more.

Essentially, what I remember is a NEW battery is about 20-21 kWh accessible (the rest we can't charge or discharge because that would generate more damage to the battery). Also, the 2011/12 Leafs have/had a considerable amount of capacity below 1-2 bars. The last bar is about twice as much as the others. So if you're only running it down to 1-2 bars left, there's still a lot of range left. I've managed to get 10 miles after the Low Battery Warning (LBW) and even another 10 miles after the VLBW while driving at city speeds 35-40 mph before hitting the dreaded turtle (power limited and less than 1/2 mile until completely dead). One time I gave up after 15 miles post VLBW. Turtle is NOT good for the battery so don't do it unless you absolutely have to. It's only there to allow you to pull off the road safely (maybe even coast). Once there, it takes a LONG time to recharge before you will even be allowed to restart. Bar number 9 or 10 (I don't remember which one) is known to drop pretty quickly, and may have about 1/2 the capacity of the "normal" bar.

Most people have trouble going all the way to zero (heck the thing even flashes dashes at you). I suggest that you pick a nice Sunday and drive a safe course which ends with several 1-5 mile loops around your house or a working charging station. Then keep circling after LBW and VLBW until you experience this. It's tough to do the first time, but once you begin to understand the limitations and your own local terrain, it gets easier. I have the perfect situation, essentially all of driving near my house is on 5-10 mi on city streets. I have even arrived on the outskirts of the city at VLBW (driving 65 mph), and drive another flat 5-10 mi home at 35 mph without worries. If you live at the top of a hill, then you will have more challenges since it takes lots more energy going up, than flat, or going down.

As for the Guess-o-meter (GOM) number, forget it, unless you drive 35-45 mph at 75 F on the flats all the time. The new EPA range was about 72 mi, so getting 50-60 mi (and still having some below that you haven't accessed) is probably pretty good for a 2012 (depending on climate location temps).

Bottom line: Sounds about right for a 2012.

 

[sanghi]

I forgot to mention that I live in Des Moines, Iowa. It is pretty flat area, climate wise, these days 70-75F, my driving habit is normal and steady.

Can someone post their charepoint activity chart, with the information of bar left? Which will help comparison.

Also, with 4.0 miles/kwhr average on the dash board, why can't go above 70 miles? most of the time end of 50+, even not 60+.

Thanks all replaying.

 

[Slow1]

I believe the key is Reddy's comment - while the battery may well be "chemically" capable of holding 24kWh, the functional range limited by the car is less - under 22kWh and likely even less.

I have had this discussion with many folks, including my local Nissan "Leaf expert" and it is a marketing game no doubt. I suspect we'll see some class action lawyer jump into this within a few years. Anyone here remember the "CRT viewable vs actual tube size" issue (the CRT Tube in a monitor may have been 17" diagonal, but actual useful size was more like 16")? The analogy is very clear - technically yes the battery is 24kWh but does the consumer buy for that or useful capacity? (Do you want a large tube in your monitor or a large display?). In the case of the monitors you now have the industry being rather careful about advertising actual useful dimensions - I hope car manufactures will do the same soon without the need to feed lawyers....

 

[dgpcolorado]

...I have had this discussion with many folks, including my local Nissan "Leaf expert" and it is a marketing game no doubt. I suspect we'll see some class action lawyer jump into this within a few years. Anyone here remember the "CRT viewable vs actual tube size" issue (the CRT Tube in a monitor may have been 17" diagonal, but actual useful size was more like 16")? The analogy is very clear - technically yes the battery is 24kWh but does the consumer buy for that or useful capacity? (Do you want a large tube in your monitor or a large display?). In the case of the monitors you now have the industry being rather careful about advertising actual useful dimensions - I hope car manufactures will do the same soon without the need to feed lawyers....

It seems unnecessary to worry about battery total size versus usable. The EPA range is a good proxy for usable battery capacity (plus many other efficiency factors, including weight and aerodynamics). Is knowing the usable battery size really more important than that? Beyond those of us who are "EV nerds", how many car buyers really care about such things?

 

[Slow1]

It seems unnecessary to worry about battery total size versus usable. The EPA range is a good proxy for usable battery capacity (plus many other efficiency factors, including weight and aerodynamics). Is knowing the usable battery size really more important than that? Beyond those of us who are "EV nerds", how many car buyers really care about such things?

Then don't include it in the specs when advertising the car - or if you do be clear what number you are using. If nothing else it leads to further confusion which is counter-productive.

 

[sanghi]

Here are some screenshots of ChargePoint.

Any clue? Also the amount of energy I can add to the battery X average miles/kWh is equal to miles I can drive, my average is always more than 4.0, but I can't go more than 60 miles per charge 50/50 highway and city. From all these number and calculation, I not agreeing with 24kWh, but it may have 18kWh who knows.

I also ask Nissan technician, can you show me some readings from the electric energy measurement instrument, they just denied and battery is healthy, can hold full charge, and it has 24kWh.

I also opened a "Case" with Nissan, they just closed my case without any further clarification of my question. Which is more suspicious to me. I am still trying to reach again and again, require more than a hour to have a good conversation.

My conclusion is : there must be one of the following is not correct.

1. Battery power which we all assumed 24kWh
2. The dashboard application which your energy consumption and other information including your average.
3. ChargePoint Dashboard, how much energy you added into your Nissan Leaf.
4. Time to charge from zero to full with 240v, @ 3.3 is 7 Hours, but mine is full in 5 and half, see the picture.

I am getting my Kill-A-Watt today. I will use it at my Garage, and see what is the reading, I will post again.

Thank you all writing on my thread.

 

[DaveEV]

A brand new LEAF will typically take 24-25 kWh from the wall to recharge from turtle to 100%.

You could have at least 4 kWh more if you drained to turtle. There's a lot of capacity hidden under LBW on early cars.

That would put you around 20-21 kWh for a full charge which is in the right ballpark for a 2012 depending on how the battery was treated.

 

[sanghi]

Update with Kill-A-Watt, it took 4.4 for 3 bars, which is 1.46kWh ~ 1.5kWh, that calculation end up to 12 x 1.5kWh = 18kWh.

I will try get Kill-A-Watt reading for 6 bar left and 2 bar left later.

 

[Reddy]

Run it down to turtle and then check. When I did it back in 2011/12, I measure something like 28 KWH and 21 hours. EDIT: Spend some time reading these threads. Here's my previous report:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6876&p=243034&hilit=turtle#p243034
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6876&hilit=turtle

 

[TimLee]

Update with Kill-A-Watt, it took 4.4 for 3 bars, which is 1.46kWh ~ 1.5kWh, that calculation end up to 12 x 1.5kWh = 18kWh.

I will try get Kill-A-Watt reading for 6 bar left and 2 bar left later.

A 2012 LEAF is not brand new.
It has some capacity loss.
But even if it was brand new, the 24 kWh battery capacity is theoretical to fully charged and fully discharged cell voltages that the LEAF Lithium Battery Controller does not let the LEAF battery go to in the interest of reducing capacity degradation.

Only about 21.5 kWh is usable in a brand new 2011 / 2012 battery.
See Tony Williams' range chart http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293#p101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

If you want to understand the 2012 LEAF'S battery and energy storage you need a too such as LEAF Spy Pro.
See the Wiki for info.
Also there is a new iOS version.
It only uses WiFi adapter.
Android version can also use Wifi.

For comparison on your original question, I have a 2011 with two missing capacity bars, around 50 AHR energy storage.
When fully charged the highest kWh remaining it shows is 17.5.
Will have Turtled and shut down at around 0.5
So 17 kWh usable.
18 kWh usable on a 2012 is probably about right depending on its capacity loss.

 

[sanghi]

Update:
Once I got into turtle mode after making several loops near by house and using Kill-A-Watt, total kWh require to charge 100% is 23.34 which is close 24hr. I also noticed that there is lots of power left after 0 bar (I assumed another 10 highway at 60 mph)

Also, total miles is 72 from full charge to turtle, which make sense to me and proved my self. Thank you everyone replying on my post and suggesting things to do.