To lease or not to lease that is the question

[neofightr]

First off let me say I did not lease but bought the 2014 model to be delivered later this week.
After scouring the ev forums I find it amusing that people are adamant about leasing this tech versus buying. Indeed even the dealerships are pushing this.
I can understand the paranoid (range anxiety) customers but why are the dealers pushing this so hard?? Nissan the car-maker doesn't care they just make the cars.

Here is some food for thought:
By leasing you, basically give the fed tax credit ($7500 currently) to the dealership (owner) and let them decide how much they want to pass on to you via crafty lease numbers and upgrade perks.
Think about that for a moment, do you really think in the end you will get the full $7500 value back via this method?

By leasing you basically rent the vehicle from the owner who is the dealership with mileage restrictions of course and in the end of your 3 year lease and all those thousands of dollars you paid you having nothing to show for it. No trade-in value, nothing, zilch. Now the dealer on the other hand....

Just what does the dealership owner get out of it?? Aside from all that rent money, they get an average mileage or better 3yr old car in good (possibly excellent) condition with one catch, the batteries are 3 years old and probably at the 75% mark.

Hmm, as a dealer owner what would I do? Hmm, what to do what to do, I know, why not call the Tn. Factory who makes the batteries in bulk get a dealership discount and have them ship those new/refurbished batteries over and I will have my mechanics install the new batteries and put these pre-owned cars on the lot with a big old sticker saying "batteries just like new/ 6 year warranty" and sell them for at least $20k and watch them sell like hot cakes.

And better yet what if, maybe just maybe, the battery factory comes out with enhanced battery packs with extended range like say 120 mi. How much do you think the dealerships will be able to sell these once leased 2011 cars for?? $20k, $23k, $25k??

Keep in mind the higher-end infinity cars will be seeing the really-enhanced packs before the new leafs will so the best bet for those looking for a real bargain are going to be these bad boys.

Now for the early adopters, leasing wasn't a bad strategy because in about 2-3 years from now as an owner of a 2011 model you might be looking at the $100 dollars a month deal to keep your leaf going because by then the batteries are spent and out of warranty.

Chances are the battery factory won't be selling to the public these battery packs directly so you are stuck paying that 100 bucks a month which if you think about it, is like having a $100 a month gas bill. Hmm, kind of leaves a bad taste in your mouth if you went this course.

Ah but the dealer will tell you as an owner you could always trade in for a new leaf And of course the dealership will then get that pre-owned puppy you traded-in out there with new/refurbished batteries in no time! Cha-ching! Dealerhip gets the bonus once again.

You see why Nissan is offering that 100/month deal now? Basically leading the sheep to get fleeced by forcing them to trade up or live with $100/month e-gas bill.

But what about now? Chances are in 4-5 years we could be looking at all kinds of after-market options for an owner. I am betting my paycheck (literally) that either the battery factory or after-market companies are going to offer enhanced (200+mi range) battery packs for under $8k directly to the public by then. This all depends on the market of course but considering that just 6 years ago, no one thought electric cars were going to work on a large scale, hmm makes you think doesn't it?

Remember in 4-5 years every car maker on the planet will have their answer to the Tesla's much promised model-E with 200 plus milage and an under $30k price tag.
If you don't think secondary markets (superchargers,15-min charges, enhanced batteries w/150+range) for these older cars are'nt going to be red hot think again.
This market by the way is what will force the Nissan battery maker to finally sell batteries to the public.

To lease or not to lease .....hmm

 

[derkraut]

An interesting and informative post there, neofightr. I agree with you about 99.9%. I bought my 2011, and am very happy. Leasing (renting) a car just doesn't do it for me, financially.

 

[neofightr]

An interesting and informative post there, neofightr. I agree with you about 99.9%. I bought my 2011, and am very happy. Leasing (renting) a car just doesn't do it for me, financially.

I am happy to hear an early adopter is still pleased with their car. From all these horror stories I was reading I was starting to get depressed. Glad to see there is another side of the story.

Happy motoring!

 

[cwerdna]

By leasing you, basically give the fed tax credit ($7500 currently) to the dealership (owner) and let them decide how much they want to pass on to you via crafty lease numbers and upgrade perks.
Think about that for a moment, do you really think in the end you will get the full $7500 value back via this method?

The dealership is not the owner of the car once it's leased to you. NMAC is. And, I and everyone who has leased recently has gotten the full $7500 (and more) of savings passed onto us.

I'm personally wasn't/am not a fan of leasing but the Leaf is the first car I've ever leased.

Let's just hope you don't live in a hot climate and/or your normal use cases don't have you pushing the Leaf to its range limits. If you do, you'll be sorry you bought, instead of leased.

BTW, can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side)? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

 

[Weatherman]

When I see a local dealer trying to sell a LEAF nearly identical to my own (a 2012 Glacier Pearl SV with a VIN of 22063) for less than $19,000, that's all I need to know as to which is best.

With the exception of a local company called "Off Lease Only", local dealers in my area don't even bother trying to sell used LEAFs. They dump them as fast as they can at auction to get them off their books. The last thing a local dealer wants is to get an off-lease LEAF, especially when the person walks away.

 

[LeftieBiker]

This is the first lease ever for me, and I have no regrets. I couldn't have afforded to buy the car, and when my current lease is up I may be able to lease one with more range. I got a pretty good deal, so I'm confident I actually got the $7500.

 

[pkulak]

Wait until a 48kWh Leaf comes out about when your lease is up. The 24s will be about worthless. This industry is changing too fast. I'd rather Nissan take that risk than me.

 

[neofightr]

The dealership is not the owner of the car once it's leased to you. NMAC is. And, I and everyone who has leased recently has gotten the full $7500 (and more) of savings passed onto us.
I'm personally wasn't/am not a fan of leasing but the Leaf is the first car I've ever leased.
Let's just hope you don't live in a hot climate and/or your normal use cases don't have you pushing the Leaf to its range limits. If you do, you'll be sorry you bought, instead of leased.
BTW, can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side)? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

______________________________________________
From Wikipedia with references:
Rationale
Vehicle Leasing offers advantages to both buyers and sellers. For the buyer, lease payments will usually be lower than payments on a car loan would be, and qualification is often easier. Some consumers may prefer leasing as it allows them to simply return a car and select a new model when the lease expires, allowing a consumer to drive a new vehicle every few years without the responsibility of selling the old vehicle. A lessee does not have to worry about the future value of the vehicle, while a vehicle owner does. For a business lessor there are tax advantages to be considered.
$$$$$For the seller, leasing generates income from a vehicle the seller still owns and will be able to lease again or sell through vehicle remarketing once the original (or primary) lease has expired. As consumers will typically use a leased vehicle for a shorter period of time than one they buy outright, leasing may generate repeat customers more quickly, which may fit into various aspects of a dealer's business model.

Lease agreement
Lease agreements typically stipulate an early termination fee and limit the number of miles a lessee can drive (for passenger cars, a common number is 10,000 miles per annum though the amount can be stipulated by the customer and can be 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year). If the mileage allowance is exceeded, fees may apply. Dealers will typically allow a lessee to negotiate a higher mileage allowance, for a higher lease payment. Lease agreements usually specify how much wear on the vehicle is allowable, and the lessee may face a fee if that amount of wear has been exceeded.[1] A lease with maintenance (commonly known in the UK as Contract Hire) can include all vehicle running costs excluding fuel and insurance.
The actual lease payments are calculated in a very similar way to loan payments, but instead of an APR, the company uses something called the money factor.

$$$$$$At the end of a lease's term, the lessee must either return the vehicle to or buy it from the owner$$$$$$$.
The end of lease price is usually agreed upon when the lease is signed.
________________________________________________

the money factor...hmm I wonder what that is

Now as far as I am concerned dealerships and their staff are professional con artists and will find ways of twisting their words and using legalese to hide the plain and simple truth, you do not own the car. I don't care if it's NMAC or Joe Danger motors, you simply don't own the car and because of that you are not entitled to the tax credit...period...end of story. And if someone is somehow the co-owner in a lease then why isn't the dealer entitled to half of the tax credit? If I was the co-owner I would expect it and would be legally entitled to it. And if I was the co-owner I sure as hell won't let my co-owner walk away with half the car at the end of 3 years.

Face it, dealerships are in it for the profit and they will do anything to maximize it to include feeding you any line it takes to convince you that you got the full 7500 credit.

I will include some links in my next post to highlight the sham that started 2 years ago and I think is finally squashed by now at the dealerships. Chevy volt dealers were caught red-handed and not nissan dealers but it makes you wonder nonetheless.

I live in VA beach where summers can avg around 85 let me emphasize that is average. Yes the temps have gotten as high as 100. I grew up in Phoenix so I know all about the heat over there.

I will not have an issue with range because my commute is no more that 40 miles round trip and I can charge at work. My weekend travel is 10 mi max per day. So basically this is the perfect car for me. If I had to travel to nearby states I would simply rent if needed. If I can afford it, my next electric car in 6 years once the battery warranty is up will be a Tesla else I will dictate to the Nissan dealer of my choice what it will take for them to convince me to buy a new leaf otherwise it's off to the aftermarket and believe me the dealerships will know this hence a nice big fact trade-in.

I know that the absolute worst case scenario is a 40 mi range in my leaf. I will not have a problem with this. I am ready for it and I will accept it as part of the purchase.
Don't forget Nissan tweaked the battery chemistry for this year's model among other things to improve range reliability.

Anyone thinking the resale value of the leafs is affected by the original batteries is an absolute fool. Unlike replacing an ICE replacing the battery pack takes pennies on the dollar compared to an ICE. And as a system engineer with an electrical background I know for a fact that electric motors are reliable by many factors compared to ICE. And guess what I saw on video, one of the Nissan company reps brag about the actual motor (the only moving part) being the size of a football. Bottom line: the batteries are the only potential-kinetic point of failure for this vehicle for at least the first ten years of it's life and I am willing to bet the motor by that time will cost less than $300 to replace based on manufacturing production curves.

I have an electric forklift at work that has lasted 25 years of continuous use with only the battery needing to be replaced a few times. The wheels rotted away before the engine gave up and it's still going.

With a electric car racing industry starting to take off, a corporate electric fleet industry matured and growing like crazy and the nation governments supporting R&D all over the world, there is no way on this green earth that battery replacement in these vehicles will not be a viable alternative (under $8k/optimistically 4k) to buying a new car in just a few short years.

And I didn't even mention Tesla and all the crazy cool things they are coming up with to deal with battery limitations.

 

[neofightr]

Wait until a 48kWh Leaf comes out about when your lease is up. The 24s will be about worthless. This industry is changing too fast. I'd rather Nissan take that risk than me.

You do realize enthusiasts are already changing out the charger right? I won't touch these DIY kits until Nissan allows it with their warranties and that ain't happening soon. It is only a matter of a couple of years before the aftermarket will come up with complete battery replacements. Once this happens Nissan will finally open the battery store for their cars else the aftermarket will eat them alive.

The only reason Nissan doesn't have a $45k leaf with a 48kWh charger is because their batteries can't take it. And when they do crack that nut it will be called the Infiniti and not the leaf.

Expect that 48kWh Leaf to be economically feasible by 2018. It will be around the time that Tesla comes out with their Model E in full production. The buy wait times for these cars will be atrocious.

Did I mention that Tesla makes their own batteries too? Wanna make a bet which company will license to the aftermarket first?? You don't think Tesla would like to score some serious profit off of the emerging used leaf market? And guess who would be tickled pink to see Tesla bite into Nissan new sales, why Toyota of course, who happen to be partners with Tesla.

By the way I got the high-end leaf so I have the fast charger. I hope I never have to use it else it eats away at my batteries like a cancer.

How do I know this? Because I studied the engineering papers on the type of batteries that Nissan is using and I did a technical paper on the battery tech a few years for my masters.

 

[neofightr]

Here are some links to a scam that started around the time the Leaf and Volt went live.

http://nlpc.org/stories/2011/05/31/gm-admits-dealerships-are-taking-chevy-volt-tax-credits" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1060841_update-dealers-pocketing-7500-chevy-volt-tax-credit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/43243050/ns/business-autos/t/some-volt-dealers-take-tax-credit-themselves/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And if you think that Nissan dealerships are above the shenanigans, boy have I got some land to sell you.

Keep in mind Nissan dealerships have nothing to do with Nissan the car company so as scummy as I think Nissan and Volt dealers are I don't believe they reflect the car companies directly.
But they sure tarnish their names when they get caught don't they?

GM PR was aggressive in getting this minimized. Dollars to donuts the Nissan Car Company went on a hunt after they read about this to make sure this wasn't happening at Nissan dealerships.

Some choice quotes from the articles above:
"Modica, a former Saturn dealership manager, said in an interview he was reluctant to call the process a “scam,” preferring to describe it as “gaming the system.” Though it may technically be legal, “it is not right,” he said."

"Still, consumers could inadvertently apply for a second tax credit on the same vehicle. Complicating matters, the federal form used to request the credit does not require a vehicle’s VIN, or vehicle identification number, something that would seemingly make such duplications difficult. In fact, the Treasury's inspector general for tax administration revealed earlier this year that as much as $33 million in improper battery car tax credits had so far been claimed, as much as $7 million of that figure considered unrecoverable."

The reason why lease contracts aren't mentioned is because the dealerships have a legal right to claim the credit. Again how much they pass onto the customer is up to them and there is no way the customer will ever know other than a warm and fuzzy. You can replace NMAC with dealerships if you like, it doesn't matter.

Bottom line:
get a lease for the right reason not the wrong one. If you have the job security and like the luxury of stepping into a new car every three years then a lease is right for you.

But if you get a lease because you are thinking the car will not have the justified value in the long term then you are doing it for the wrong reason.

Just getting it out there for those that are still debating on a leaf purchase.

 

[neofightr]

When I see a local dealer trying to sell a LEAF nearly identical to my own (a 2012 Glacier Pearl SV with a VIN of 22063) for less than $19,000, that's all I need to know as to which is best.

With the exception of a local company called "Off Lease Only", local dealers in my area don't even bother trying to sell used LEAFs. They dump them as fast as they can at auction to get them off their books. The last thing a local dealer wants is to get an off-lease LEAF, especially when the person walks away.

Oh wow that's a good one.
How about the gems below fresh off the internet press.

Notice the years and the mileage. Now call me stupid but to me that is some pretty good resale value when you compare the numbers.
Oh don't forget the dealers, correction the owners <cough> (I mean let's be frank here technically the salesman that had the privilege to take these cars home every night for evaluations are kinda like owners right?) got their money's worth especially after you factor in the tax break that they got when they bought them.

By the way do you think the dealers, I mean <cough> owners paid sticker price for these cars?

2012 Leaf SL
Good Deal
$1,615 BELOW
Instant Market Value of $21,604
Price: $19,989
Mileage: 14,080
Location: Bethesda, MD 33 mi
Dealer rating:

2012 Leaf SV
Fair Deal
$404 ABOVE
Instant Market Value of $18,596
Price: $19,000
Mileage: 25,652
Location: Marlow Heights, MD 36 mi
Dealer rating:

 

[cwerdna]

You seem to have a a bunch of misinformation about leases the mixed it w/some other dealer scams (that we've known about for ages) and have used it to justify your purchase. Whatever, if the purchase is right for you, fine.

the money factor...hmm I wonder what that is

You can see the definition at http://www.edmunds.com/car-loan/leasing-glossary.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and many other places. And, yes, some dealers mark it up.

Now as far as I am concerned dealerships and their staff are professional con artists and will find ways of twisting their words and using legalese to hide the plain and simple truth, you do not own the car. I don't care if it's NMAC or Joe Danger motors, you simply don't own the car and because of that you are not entitled to the tax credit...period...end of story. And if someone is somehow the co-owner in a lease then why isn't the dealer entitled to half of the tax credit? If I was the co-owner I would expect it and would be legally entitled to it. And if I was the co-owner I sure as hell won't let my co-owner walk away with half the car at the end of 3 years.

Face it, dealerships are in it for the profit and they will do anything to maximize it to include feeding you any line it takes to convince you that you got the full 7500 credit.

I will include some links in my next post to highlight the sham that started 2 years ago and I think is finally squashed by now at the dealerships. Chevy volt dealers were caught red-handed and not nissan dealers but it makes you wonder nonetheless.

You're confused. When you lease, the lessee is NOT the owner. The financing company is. They receive the credit. The lessee CANNOT apply for the tax credit and is ineligible. I know all this.

Again, you're confusing a scam that dealers were pulling on purchases w/leasing.

I guess you've never carefully studied Leaf lease paperwork and the discussion. If you did, you'd see how passing on the tax credit as savings to the lessee reduces the total cost of the lease vs. it not being there only partly or not at all. It seems you're just throwing out FUD.

 

[cwerdna]

The only reason Nissan doesn't have a $45k leaf with a 48kWh charger is because their batteries can't take it. And when they do crack that nut it will be called the Infiniti and not the leaf.

Please elaborate on "because their batteries can't take it".

Did I mention that Tesla makes their own batteries too?

No they don't. Panasonic supplies the cells. Tesla then assembles packs from them.
http://www.teslamotors.com/about/press/releases/panasonic-enters-supply-agreement-tesla-motors-supply-automotivegrade-battery-c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.teslamotors.com/about/press/releases/panasonic-and-tesla-reach-agreement-expand-supply-automotivegrade-battery-cells" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tesla's also in talks w/Samsung SDI (http://insideevs.com/tesla-confirms-that-its-working-on-a-battery-cell-deal-with-samsung-sdi-for-model-x/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

By the way I got the high-end leaf so I have the fast charger. I hope I never have to use it else it eats away at my batteries like a cancer.

Source on the bolded part? "Fast charger"? Are you talking about the 6 kW on-board charger or the CHAdeMO DC fast charge port?

 

[neofightr]

You seem to have a a bunch of misinformation about leases the mixed it w/some other dealer scams (that we've known about for ages) and have used it to justify your purchase. Whatever, if the purchase is right for you, fine.
.....
You're confused. When you lease, the lessee is NOT the owner. The financing company is. They receive the credit. The lessee CANNOT apply for the tax credit and is ineligible. I know all this.
....
Again, you're confusing a scam that dealers were pulling on purchases w/leasing.

I guess you've never carefully studied Leaf lease paperwork and the discussion. If you did, you'd see how passing on the tax credit as savings to the lessee reduces the total cost of the lease vs. it not being there only partly or not at all. It seems you're just throwing out FUD.

I guess I never did since I have not signed my papers yet. But that is irrelevant since I am not leasing and have never leased based on everything I know about leasing and that comes from public knowledge available to all.

To be frank I think you are confused. I never said the lessee owned a vehicle I stated an assumption for argument's sake that was clearly meant to be false. The truth is that in a lease there is no such thing as co-ownership.

I guess you didn't read my statement where I made it clear that the scam had nothing to do with leases but everything to do with ethics in dealerships (the bad ethics are implied).

I recommend you don't glum on to specific words when reading a post. It will keep you from making statements that are not warranted.

But to further my point:
Leasing is designed for corporate and small business looking for business tax write-off and of course the rich who don't care about having tangible value with the cars they use.
Leasing was never created for or optimized for the typical middle income individual.

So here I was thinking that when the lease is up that the dealers turn around and re-lease it or outright sell it on their lots as a used car something that has been cited publicly many times. Silly me. By your statements I have to assume it's the financial company that has the privilege of using their dealer's lots to resell since they own the car right? Oh wait the logical conclusion is that the financial company sells back to the dealer once the initial lease is over and the customer decides to not buy out the lease thus making the dealer the owner for resale.

Am I suppose to be naive enough to believe that the financing company and the dealerships are not doing some sweetheart deals in the background?
After all the financing co. buys the car from the dealer (taxed profit) leases to the customer then at the end of lease if no buy out by said customer sells back to dealer (taxed profit).
Really? Do you really think two companies that are incestuous by nature are going to allow our government to tax them as they each make profit off each other?? really?

But then again...
what do I know, I have only bought 5 brand new cars in the past 20 years and have dealt with the financial backroom circus 6 times (1 friend assist) now going on seven (Pontiac, 3xToyota, Nissan, 2xHonda). I have seen first hand the tactics they used to make you wait during the paperwork signing phase to try to talk you into "good" deals. I have seen every tactic thrown at me to eek out that extra 50 dollars of profit. I have had deals with good salesman/bad manager roleplayers, Managers trying to make last minute deals with far off dealerships to get me that "special" deal. Trade-in offers that have varied as much as $2000 dollars between competitors for the same car. And of course those wonderful tactics of holding your car keys and holding the Driver license tactics they use every time.

I remember this one time I had kept asking for a period of 5 minutes (raising my voice each time) for my keys so I could leave after the greedy deal they offered and the excuses oh the excuses they used etched in my brain how scummy the industry is.

I remember when I was looking at the prius and informed the salesman that I was going to check Nissan he had the audacity to suggest the Nissan dealership owned by the same company. I almost laughed out loud.

And yet somehow after all this I should have faith that dealerships in conjunction with their financing partner are not "gaming the system"? Are you kidding me?
Just because they make it look like your lease payments are lowered due to the tax credit and I assume even go out of there way to give some table/paperwork etc., to prove it doesn't mean that you got the full $7500.

And unless you are in the car industry and know first-hand what goes on, your opinion is as informed as mine. Oh and by the way and if you are in the industry do you think for one second I would trust anything you state.

By the way I stand corrected, Tesla does not own their batteries, for some reason I thought there had been some stock investments in panasonic.

I confused it with the Toyota investment
"On May 20, 2010, Tesla and Toyota announced a partnership to work on electric vehicle development, which included Toyota's US$50 million future conditional investment[145] in Tesla and Tesla's US$42 million purchase of a portion of the former NUMMI factory.[83][95][199] Tesla cooperated on the development of electric vehicles, parts, and production system and engineering support. It was announced that an electric version of the Toyota RAV4 would be mass-produced in 2012 at Toyota's Woodstock, Ontario plant." -Wiki

Ironically by correcting me you further the case for aftermarket batteries being available sooner than later because Panasonic and Samsung will have less bias towards the car makers and will probably have no problem licensing or whole-selling batteries to third parties.

Oh and the ironies continue: Seeing that Toyota just invested into Tesla, it now makes sense why neither Tesla nor Toyota have yet to offer an all electric solution for the 35k and below market.
There is this little thing called the Prius Plug-in and Toyota is anxious to move this product in the next few years. I have test drove this car before I tested the Leaf.

Let me tell you something it ain't worth it when you factor the overall gas mileage of 50 mpg after the 11 mi. range motor runs out of juice.
Toyota knows it's hybrid is in it's final days and doesn't want Tesla to swoop in with the Model E just yet else or they will lose a ton in R&D.
My money is that Toyota will come out with a Tesla designed car for this market. This explains why Tesla's focus is now on Model X vs model E.
I feel sorry for anyone holding their breath for Tesla's model E. It could be 4-5 years away.

This explains why Toyota opened it's purse strings to Tesla along with the obscene ROI they will get in the coming years.

I am still baffled as to why Honda is so way behind. The FIT EV is not even close to 35K's worth. Trust me I know, I am about to trade in my ICE Fit for the leaf. It was a great car for $18k and 40Mpg hwy five years ago.

nuf said.

 

[cwerdna]

I don't have the time to address everything in your post.

The truth is that in a lease there is no such thing as co-ownership.

That's right. The lessee isn't an owner.

Leasing is designed for corporate and small business looking for business tax write-off and of course the rich who don't care about having tangible value with the cars they use.
Leasing was never created for or optimized for the typical middle income individual.

That's irrelevant. Folks here have many reasons for leasing EVs or PHEVs.

I've also bought numerous new cars myself and helped others buy their new cars. I know the tactics you refer to.

Just because they make it look like your lease payments are lowered due to the tax credit and I assume even go out of there way to give some table/paperwork etc., to prove it doesn't mean that you got the full $7500.

Again, you've not looked at proper Leaf lease paperwork and run the numbers yourself. Virtually anyone here who is knowledgeable about leases, read thru their Leaf lease paperwork and run the numbers will tell you that you're wrong.

Here's some discussion and paperwork from long ago on Leafs. IIRC, the $7500 tax credit shows up as part of the capitalized cost reduction.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2192" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=329519#p329519" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3823" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; discussed the what if scenarios, at the end of the lease.

My money is that Toyota will come out with a Tesla designed car for this market. This explains why Tesla's focus is now on Model X vs model E.
I feel sorry for anyone holding their breath for Tesla's model E. It could be 4-5 years away.

This explains why Toyota opened it's purse strings to Tesla along with the obscene ROI they will get in the coming years.

I am still baffled as to why Honda is so way behind. The FIT EV is not even close to 35K's worth. Trust me I know, I am about to trade in my ICE Fit for the leaf. It was a great car for $18k and 40Mpg hwy five years ago.

You seem confused again. Toyota's not serious about EVs at all. They're going to push hydrogen FCEVs because of their CA ZEV credit they can earn. The Plug-in Prius is an enhanced AT-PZEV car and cars like the Prius, Camry Hybrid, etc. are AT-PZEV cars that count towards Toyota's CA ZEV requirements.

As for Honda, the Fit EV is a lease only (not available for purchase) vehicle that's a CA ZEV compliance car. http://automobiles.honda.com/fit-ev/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; even says "No purchase option at lease end." The MSRP, $35K or whatever is mostly irrelevant. You can't buy that car.

Please see below, for example:
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=379" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6853" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.toyota.com/esq/vehicles/regulatory/carb-mandate-for-zero-emission-vehicles.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://insideevs.com/tesla-leads-sellers-of-zev-credits-in-past-year-gm-leads-as-a-buyer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zevcredits/2012zevcredits.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[neofightr]

I don't have the time to address everything in your post.
.....That's right. The lessee isn't an owner.
.....That's irrelevant. Folks here have many reasons for leasing EVs or PHEVs.
....I've also bought numerous new cars myself and helped others buy their new cars. I know the tactics you refer to.

....Again, you've not looked at proper Leaf lease paperwork and run the numbers yourself. Virtually anyone here who is knowledgeable about leases, read thru their Leaf lease paperwork and run the numbers will tell you that you're wrong.
As for Honda, the Fit EV is a lease only...

Once again you assume just because I don't lease I don't have a clue about leasing or it's purpose.
This would be a bad assumption but you are entitled to your opinion just like me.
My point all this time for leasing is do it for the right reason and not the wrong. Leasing because of fear of the tech is really not the smart reason.

You seem confused because you continue to read my statements incoherently. If you read them carefully, you would realize I already own a Honda Fit.
Doesn't it not make sense to you that I would have first looked at the Honda EV to determine if I wanted it since I decided to eventually buy an all electric like the Leaf?
I have been visiting the Honda Fit site patiently for the past 2 years waiting for a nationwide release of the Honda EV that never happened since I live in VA.

Hence after realizing that Honda is only leasing the car and making it available in CA, I would come to the logical conclusion that Honda is way behind in the all-electric industry.
Bottom line: Honda is in the prototype phase using CA customers to test out the market. They took an existing Fit carcass and modified it with the electric propulsion and batteries.
Makes sense to me if you are in the prototype phase.

Nissan did this 5 years ago, hence my statement that Honda is waaaay behind.

".....You seem confused again. Toyota's not serious about EVs at all. They're going to push hydrogen FCEVs because of their CA ZEV credit they can earn. The Plug-in Prius is an enhanced AT-PZEV car and cars like the Prius, Camry Hybrid, etc. are AT-PZEV cars that count towards Toyota's CA ZEV requirements."

You seem to be glossing over my statements again since I quoted that Toyota announced they invested 50 million into Tesla for the sole purpose of researching electric alternatives. Yet somehow this doesn't register to you that Toyota just invested 50 MILLION dollars to a potential competitor in the all-electric market.

Do yourself favor and research specifically the projected cost of using Hydrogen at the consumer level.

Also consider these things (and I highly recommend you don't gloss over these statements): Infrastructure, energy used to make hydrogen and Safety

It is true that Toyota touts hydrogen infrastructure will be in place (by the thousands) in the "future" for their cars but what they neglect to mention is the associated costs and the concrete timelines. Their prediction is quite viable actually as I will explain below.

But guess what?
The infrastructure to deliver the energy required to charge batteries directly has been around for over a hundred years and is in everyone's houses today AND COSTS pennies on the dollar.
Tell me, can you make/deliver hydrogen in your house today? And if you were to buy such a device (god knows the price tag for it) for your home, how much do you think it will cost to make a tank full of hydrogen using the electric power in your home??

But here's the onion, guess what industry is ready to convert all those wonderful gas stations we see around every corner in our cities to hydrogen?, yup you guessed it, the oil industry. Guess who has been pushing the fuel cell concept aggressively for the past 12 years, yup you guessed it big oil.

And why is that, simply put, it allows them to continue their monopoly on car energy. The last thing they want is for you to make/deliver hydrogen at your house.

Ah, now we see why Toyota is making such a grand statement about hydrogen infrastructure. And if you connect the dots you begin to see why Tesla is having a hell of time setting up charging stations is some states (Texas <cough>, do I even need to explain to you why this is?).

Savvy???

And finally safety, here is a choice quote:

Is hydrogen safe?
"Like any other fuel, hydrogen is flammable and has the potential to react violently with oxygen in the air. However, this is also true of gasoline, diesel and natural gas and yet this has not prevented the use of these fuels. The key is having the correct safety features and infrastructure to allow non-hazardous use of potentially hazardous substances. The industry is putting considerable development into designing the correct equipment and procedures for the safe use of hydrogen."

Do you or any EV owner really want to go back to this now that you have seen the miracle of the EV? Really??? I mean come on who in their right mind would like to revert back to an explosive gas in their car that you can only get at a nearby Exxon Hydrogen station?

Oh sure you can argue Li-batteries can cause fires in garages or in their cars but take a really good look at all the documented cases for the past 15 years and I promise you they don't come close to gasoline, n-gas or the potential use of Hydrogen mishap.

In fact most fires caused in electric car garages are caused by poor electrical wiring or DIY wiring installs. Bad moves. And the handful of electric car fires have been globally broadcast-ed and documented extensively.

Wake up and open your eyes, the truth is right before you. Electric is coming, the challenge for all the developed countries is setting up solar, wind, sea and traditional power plants that can meet the incredible power demands that will be happening in 5 years time.

Oh and if you think for one minute that the net pollution effect of everyone owning electric is going to even come close to where it is now due to petrol, THINK Again!
Just go ask the Chinese government about this and see what they say.

The days of the oil barons are finally coming to an end and I for one can't wait!!!

nuff said.

 

[CMYK4Life]

First off let me say I did not lease but bought the 2014 model to be delivered later this week.

This went from a 'question' to a 'justification' from the first line.

 

[TomT]

Actually, you don't. The $7,500 comes right off the top of the cap cost on the lease so you get it all directly and immediately, and it goes straight to Nissan (NMAC), not the dealer.. Some other manufacturers like Toyota are playing games with the federal tax credit but not Nissan. I think you need to do a little better job of research before spouting such things... Being so much in error on a simple thing such as this brings the rest of your "conclusions" in to question...

By leasing you, basically give the fed tax credit ($7500 currently) to the dealership (owner) and let them decide how much they want to pass on to you via crafty lease numbers and upgrade perks.

 

[neofightr]

You seem to have a a bunch of misinformation about leases the mixed it w/some other dealer scams (that we've known about for ages) and have used it to justify your purchase. Whatever, if the purchase is right for you, fine.
....
Again, you're confusing a scam that dealers were pulling on purchases w/leasing.

I guess you've never carefully studied Leaf lease paperwork and the discussion. If you did, you'd see how passing on the tax credit as savings to the lessee reduces the total cost of the lease vs. it not being there only partly or not at all. It seems you're just throwing out FUD.

Since you are an expert on leasing let's talk about residual value.

By definition courtesy of your link:
Residual Value: This is the leasing company's prediction of what the car will be worth at the end of the lease. The residual value is also important because it affects your monthly payment. The higher the residual, the lower your monthly payments.

Ok now that you have read the above definition, tell me, in who's interest is it to downplay the predicted value of a car 3 years from now? You as the lessee or the dealer/financial arm of the dealer (aka Owner of the leased car)?

What is the number one reason EV dealers are giving customers to lease vice buy? Is it this prediction that these cars will be worth crap because of outdated chargers/worn batteries??
Hmm, I wonder why the dealers/financial arm of dealers would say this.

Could it be because, and I quote from the ref link lease you provided:
"The residual value is also important because it affects your monthly payment. The higher the residual, the lower your monthly payments."

It's all a numbers game and you Sir are going along for the ride because that financial arm of the dealer is going to make sure that the PREDICTED residual value is at it's lowest possible value so they can get the maximum payment from you.

And don't take my FUD word for it just read the linked article below:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1089368_will-low-resale-values-spoil-the-cost-benefits-of-electric-car-ownership" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here let my "confused" mind help yours and please note that last bullet:

"And there are a few important notes about why this shouldn't dissuade you from considering an electric car:
The resale-value calculations are from MSRP, not net purchase price, and they don't, of course, include the $7,500 federal tax credit, which most shoppers who could afford to buy any of these vehicles would receive. There are also many not-insignificant regional and state incentives that might apply.

Plug-in hybrids, like the Chevrolet Volt, are predicted to hold their value much better—and they can essentially function as electric cars for shorter commute distances. When KBB named its Resale Value Winners last month, the top-ranked plug-in vehicle was the Honda Accord Plug-In Hybrid.

Tesla Motors is—no surprise—taking a different strategy here, and offering relatively affordable lease prices based on the company's own guarantee that the resale value of its Model S will be the highest of any premium sedan model.

Battery technology is the other issue, of course. If major advances are made in the affordability of battery packs, and it becomes financially easy to upgrade the pack in a vehicle like the Nissan Leaf, which has been designed for that, then residual value would likely be considerably higher."


I am giving out FUD are you serious?????

 

[neofightr]

Oh and one more thing, if you really want to pull this string....

Take note that the latest PEV hybrids like the Volt and Prius are claiming to have much better resale value.
Funny how the dealers and makers are the first in line to say this along with the rest of the industry.

Hmmm.....
Ok now I am being really cynical here so if you can't take it don't bother reading the rest.

What do you think will be going through the minds of the Volt and PEV Prius drivers in about 3-4 years from now. Some will be at the end of their leases and most responsible owners will have their loans nearly paid off.

hmmm.....could it be that new EVs will finally be made available by all car makers with ranges in the 200+mi or better with a sticker price of $35k or less????
And could we be seeing reasonably-priced battery-refurbished leaf models of all years going back to 2011 models with 200+ ranges (20 min chargers) and terrific warranties due to improved tech by this time????

What do you think the resale value of all those Volts and Prius models that are rolling off the floor right now will be by then???
hmmm, awfully tempting for the lesee who paid low payments and the owner (who thought they bought a high value car) to just bite the bullet cut their perceived value losses and buy a new shiny EV.

Of course the dealers and car companies don't want you to logically think this through hence mums the word from Nissan on battery resale.
Crickets from Honda and Toyota on their EV future plans and all the other car makers for that matter.

And why is it that Honda is still sitting on their hands with their FIT EV being only in CA and in limited numbers?
Could it be that the Honda Accord Plug-in hybrid is selling like hot cakes right now along with it's counterpart prius? Nah that can't be it.

Think about it folks, think about it. We are going to see the greatest auto tech transformation in the next 5 years then ever before. It will be a sight to see.

Just imagine how quiet the main streets will be in 7 years time. Oh lordy I can't wait.

But wow you want to talk about the glut of hybrid plug-ins on used car lots in 5 years. Now that will be a sight to see.

Oh and if anyone is wondering why Nissan is jumping the gun on putting out a practical EV right now vice 4 years from now, all you need to do is read this gem of an article.
http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/altima-hybrid/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I will need to highlight just one thing about this article.
"As a quick fix, Nissan swallowed its pride and essentially purchased the rights to Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive."

This was when Nissan was playing catch-up to Honda and Toyota a few years back for the hybrid market and in the end lost.

Nissan's time is due, They suffered long enough and that is why you have the Leaf right here right now. Bravo Nissan Bravo!

Buckle up folks, the EV ride has just started