Thought I was ready.. then came here.

[PotRoastMan]

At what temp do you think a 12-bar 2012 would fall below 50 mile range? It is October, and already around 40 in the mornings (colder than usual). Just wondering if it was like 10 in the morning and 30 in the evening, could it make it? Just a ballpark idea on the threshold will help us understand range & weather. We have the prius as backup, obviously, but if we can't use it for commute for 1 or two months that is fine, if it is like 6 months, that's another story.

 

[GerryAZ]

You would need to modify the heater controls on a 2012 to allow fresh air intake for defrost without heating the water tank (heater element comes on when ambient temperature gets much below 60 degrees F.). You could use the seat and steering wheel heaters to get by without the heat down to 30 F or so if you can keep the windows from steaming. You could preheat the car while plugged in before leaving to maximize the battery charge, defrost the windows, and start your trip nice and warm. You could probably make you round trip commute with some battery deterioration as long as you modify the heater controls to keep the 5 kW resistance element from heating the fluid while driving. That being said, your best bet would be a 2013 or newer SV or SL with the heat pump and better HVAC controls from the factory to manage climate control energy use (no aftermarket modifications needed). A lease of a new 2015 SV or SL would give you 2 or 3 years of driving a new car without worrying about resale value when longer-range electric vehicles become more available.

The heat pump would easily handle 25 or 30 F temperatures on your drive home and preheating would make your morning drive comfortable so I strongly recommend a 2013 or newer SV or SL. Otherwise, you would use the 5 kW heater when you start home just to defrost the windows and that would reduce your range.

Gerry

 

[cwerdna]

'16 Leaf SV and SL also have 25% larger battery and ~27% better range per EPA range test rating. But, they're not available yet.

 

[LeftieBiker]

At what temp do you think a 12-bar 2012 would fall below 50 mile range?

I've never driven a Gen I Leaf, but my guess would be not far below 32F, depending on other factors like speed and wind.

 

[PotRoastMan]

So, sound like 2012 won't cut it on the coldest days. But a 2013 would (or might?). The 2013's aren't in my price range yet, but the 2012's are.

I am looking at used market only, because of the residuals making this a "good deal". I don't think new ones are worth it (buy or lease), I think if I needed a 2015 or 16 I'd just wait a couple years and still go for the used market.

I found this, does it look right to you guys?
http://www.fleetcarma.com/nissan-leaf-chevrolet-volt-cold-weather-range-loss-electric-vehicle/
(Although I am not sure which model year, it was published Dec 2013 so I'd assume it includes some 2013's)

 

[LeftieBiker]

That study is essentially saying that the drivers who shut the heat off (or set it very low) get good range even in Winter. Are you prepared to do that? As for new cars not being in your immediate future, the great thing about leasing is that you get the tax credit applied to the down payment by Nissan, then when the lease ends you can decide to either turn the car in (that loses you the most money if you got a good deal on the lease) extend the lease (I extended my $149 a month lease once, and will probably do so a second time) or buy the car if you like it, for a total outlay about the same as buying one upfront, without having been locked in to keeping it.

 

[TimLee]

So, sound like 2012 won't cut it on the coldest days. But a 2013 would (or might?). ...

In Minnesota on the coldest days there will be no difference.

But the 2013 SV or SL will be a lot better for quite a few weeks of more moderate winter if you like the car heated.

 

[LeftieBiker]

So, sound like 2012 won't cut it on the coldest days. But a 2013 would (or might?). ...

In Minnesota on the coldest days there will be no difference.

But the 2013 SV or SL will be a lot better for quite a few weeks of more moderate winter if you like the car heated.

We're talking about better range in Fall and Spring, plus a substantial portion of Winter. That's half the year, more or less.

 

[PotRoastMan]

First of all, thank you all for helping me understand this thing. I'm still a little confused about the 2013 heater. It has a heat pump which helps be more efficient. It is a hybrid heater, so there is another part to it. Is that the same as the 2012 heater (heats up water) or did they improve that part as well? If they did improve it, then why is it not better in the more extreme temperatures?

Nissan says 20-25 miles more distance (LOL!!) because of the improved heater. But, I also saw a comparison in California on a 65 degree day at highway speeds, the 2012 and 2013 were identical. No distance improvement at all.

So here's where we're at.. 2012 and 2013 make no difference at 65 degrees, highway speeds. And, now it is also claimed that it does no better in colder weather. So what exactly is the improvement here? It sounds like the 2013 would be better in theory, but in practice I am not finding any evidence or studies to back it up. Is the improvement only at moderate temperatures, like 25-50 degrees? And above or below those temps there is little difference? And all of this is of course assuming the battery is in good condition.

Thanks again, i think at this point the LEAF basically is not going to work for us. At least not quite yet. I think we want the 2013 but they are not a lot of them available yet. Maybe 6 months from now it'll look better.

 

[TimLee]

... I'm still a little confused about the 2013 heater. It has a heat pump which helps be more efficient. It is a hybrid heater, so there is another part to it. ...

The most quantified comparison is the Japanese graph that was put out when the hybrid heat system was introduced for 2013 SV and SL forward.
On page one of the link I gave previously.
See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=15108&hilit=heat+pump#p339708.

That graph has a graphic at the bottom right that compares the old and new systems.

Below about 5F it depends on resistive heating so energy use of old and new is the same.

But the old resistive heat is heating water that causes losses and thermal lag.

The new directly heats the blowing air.

But as the graph shows there is not much range improvement below 15F and none at more moderate temperatures.
The graph is range improvement with it set in Auto at 25C (77F).

I have been driving a 2011 four and a half years. The heater is one of the weakest things about it.
I tolerate it but it is cold here less than three months.
But as someone said it is cold in Minnesota half the year.
As the person that had driven both that I linked to said, the 2013 SV and SL forward hybrid heater makes a huge difference.

 

[GerryAZ]

The heat pump part of the hybrid heating system should be good down to around 15 or 20 F (I'm guessing based upon the ratings for my heat pumps at the house going down to 0 F without backup resistance heat--home units are probably better for cold because of larger outdoor heat exchangers). The resistance heater part of the hybrid system is a dry heater in the dash so it heats faster and does not heat liquid stored in an uninsulated tank under the hood. This should make the actual energy use to maintain desired cabin temperature significantly lower for a 2013 or later SL or SV.

Some people take time to insulate the fluid tank and lines under the hood to gain some efficiency on the 2011 and 2012 models. The other issue with 2011 and 2012 heater controls is that they automatically turn on the fluid heater when the ambient temperature drops below 60 F (or the cabin temperature set point, whichever is higher) unless the climate control is completely turned off. The only way you can have outside air ventilation to keep the windows from steaming below 60 F ambient without heating the fluid is by modifying the HVAC control to make the computer think the fluid is already warm. I had already modified the HVAC control and was planning the insulation project when the 2011 met its demise.

Another post came in while I was typing--take a look at the graphs in that link. I will add that the heat pump allowed me to just set the HVAC in AUTO at my desired cabin temperature and not worry about monitoring the energy use when I got the 2015 in February. The other benefit is that heat is almost instantaneous with the dry heater and heat pump (whether preheating while plugged in or turning on the heat when getting into the car).

The traction battery capacity is the same between 2011 and 2015. Rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag are also about the same so there is very little difference in range at steady speed (assuming similar battery health) with no climate control use. The EPA range was listed as 73 miles on the window sticker of the 2011 and 84 miles on the 2015. The 2015 has much more aggressive regeneration so that may be the difference in the EPA numbers (since they use city driving cycles to determine the range). I do notice the difference in my daily commute, especially if I use the B driving mode which maximizes regeneration on the 2015.

Gerry

 

[philip]

The EPA range was listed as 73 miles on the window sticker of the 2011 and 84 miles on the 2015. The 2015 has much more aggressive regeneration so that may be the difference in the EPA numbers (since they use city driving cycles to determine the range).

The EPA rating difference is due to the averaging of 80% and 100% charge modes on the older models. Nissan got rid of the 80% charge mode so now it lists the 100% charge range only.

 

[mtndrew1]

I think I have something useful to add here...

The 2013+ models have a 6 kW on board charger which will be much more useful for preconditioning in very cold temperatures, heat pump or not.

The 3.6 kW OBC of the earlier cars won't be able to keep up with the power demand during very cold weather preconditioning unless I'm mistaken (I live in frigid Los Angeles).

 

[GerryAZ]

The EPA rating difference is due to the averaging of 80% and 100% charge modes on the older models. Nissan got rid of the 80% charge mode so now it lists the 100% charge range only.

The averaging did not apply to 2011 and 2012 model years. The averaging applied for 2013 and that yielded an EPA range of 75 miles. 2014 US model was first year without 80% charge option so it has the same 84 mile EPA range as the 2015 (based upon 100% charge). The 2013 model year is listed as slightly more efficient than the 2014 and 2015 model years. The 2011 and 2012 model years are the least efficient, but were still the best of any mid size vehicle available at the time.

Fuel efficiency from EPA's fuel economy web site:
Energy Use: city; combined; highway (kWh/100 miles)
2011 and 2012: 32; 34; 37
2013: 26; 29; 33
2014 and 2015: 27; 30; 33
MPGe city; combined; highway (miles per gallon equivalent)
2011 and 2012: 106; 99; 92
2013: 129; 115; 102
2014 and 2015: 126; 114; 101
Range (miles)
2011 and 2012: 73
2013: 75
2014 and 2015: 84

Gerry

 

[TimLee]

Lots of #s.
But not any significant difference between a brand new 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, or 2015.
Torque was decreased on 2013 forward and may have made for slightly better efficiciency.
Most of the rest is just EPA #s gaming.

Not as fradulent as VW, but still gaming.

 

[RonDawg]

The 2013+ models have a 6 kW on board charger which will be much more useful for preconditioning in very cold temperatures, heat pump or not..

Most but not all 2013+ Leafs that are sold in the US come with the faster OBC. On the base model Leaf S it requires the QC package. Only on Canadian models (not sure about outside North America) is the faster OBC standard across the board.

 

[GerryAZ]

Lots of #s.
But not any significant difference between a brand new 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, or 2015.
Torque was decreased on 2013 forward and may have made for slightly better efficiciency.
Most of the rest is just EPA #s gaming.

Not as fradulent as VW, but still gaming.

Actually, there is a difference between the 2011 and 2015 in real world (stop and go; slow and go; etc.) range. My commute is 26 miles each way with about 20 on the freeway and the rest surface streets. Even with mostly freeway, there is enough slow or stop and go in the carpool lane to make the much more aggressive regeneration on the 2015 beneficial. Unfortunately, the decreased torque is also noticeable when accelerating from stop lights and I still miss the electric parking brake (even after 12,000 miles on the 2015).

Gerry

 

[vrwl]

Running the 2011 model in the severe cold is bearable IF you use after-market seat heaters. I bought a couple for my car and as long as I have a coat and warm gloves on, I can get by without turning on the heater. I still have to cycle the defrost every now and then, but it's do-able. With my degraded battery, I can get about 30 miles of range at slower, non-highway speeds.

 

[Jon000]

Thanks for your post. I just got Leaf Spy (lite) running today and found a couple fields on the main screen I don't understand and could not find an explanation.

1. There is an item on the top labeled: Hx =xx.xx% I see SOH giving: your_amps /66.25 in % (shown in this post),

2. The Volts and Amps on the bottom left above SOC. Are these the individual cell groups ? The 12 V auxiliary battery? (Amps are too low for this)

 

[TimLee]

^^^^

... What is Hx ? ...

See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=17482.
As battery condition degrades the pack resistance increases, or more technically correct the electrical specific conductance (ESC) decreases.
TickTock generated a very good curve fit using ESC, and SOH which appears to be proportional to AHr capacity, and temperature.

SOH is the term the Canbuss invetigators came up with for another BMS value.
Status of Health.
It is not exactly the pack percentage of capacity remaining.
But it does stay close to that calculation of curent AHr capacity divided by original AHr capacity.
It is probably some calculated % from other pack measurements like Hx is.

But I have not seen where someone tracked all the values and reverse engineered the formula.

Nissan did not make this easy.
They have released no information.
Not even in the service manuals for the technicians servicing the car.
You don't want the technicians to know too much

On question #2, it is the 12V battery.
Depending on whether the LEAF thinks the 12V needs charged it can be very low float amperage.
But if you kill the 12V badly and jump the LEAF off, when the LEAF goes into charging it can be 100 amps.