The forgotten Sept/Oct orders
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daniel
Well-known member
I don't have references. I just remember being told that there would be 900 to 1000 cars delivered to each of the roll-out states in December. I was told this by customer service and by my dealer (who merely passed on what Nissan told him, through their representative to him) and I'm under the impression that I also read it somewhere. But I WAS told this verbally by several Nissan people.
It was also clearly the general impression, as there was a lot of discussion about the Washington state sales tax exemption for new EVs bought before the end of calendar year 2010. That exemption was later extended, but at the time we ordered it was set to expire, and there was a clear understanding that the cars were promised to come in December, so that when it later appeared that they might not, it generated much angst.
Then there were posts on this board (though not by Nissan) that apparently Nissan decided to divert production to Japan, and deliver only a few token cars here to give the impression that they were fulfilling a promise to BEGIN deliveries in December, on account of a tax break in Japan. But the pretext that now the original promise was to BEGIN deliveries in December was very shallow and transparent, because delivering ONE car in December, while literally a start, was clearly the merest of tokens, and clearly a violation of the spirit, even if the promise had been only to begin deliveries then.
Put all together, it is clear that Nissan changed their minds, and the fact that they were too dishonorable to just come right out and admit it gives credence to my assertion that they were just plain backing out of their promise.
Losing orders made it worse, but once it became clear that orders were lost, they could have reallocated cars, delaying all the February orders by a few days. Instead they chose to delay the lost orders by months.
The pollen made it worse, but once it became clear that it would take months to clean those cars, they could have reallocated cars, delaying all the February orders by a few days. Instead they chose to delay the pollen car orders by months.
The failure-to-start problem made it worse, but, as above, instead of reallocating orders and delaying the February orders by a few days, they chose to delay ours by months.
Nissan promised that cars would be delivered in the order they were ordered, but when the above snafus developed, they made NO effort to reallocate cars in order to keep this promise. And their reallocation of VIN 1201 after it was in Portland and assigned to me, shows that they were certainly capable of reallocating cars if they wanted to. And I do not believe I am the only one this happened to, as a lot of cars promised for late April never were delivered, and those people are still waiting.
The earthquake and tsunami was a horrible disaster and my thoughts and sympathies are with the people who were affected and their friends and families. But had Nissan kept their original promise, this would not have affected any 2010 orders.
Packet's comment that Japanese companies often keep quiet when they have screwed up is very telling, and only reinforces my low opinion of Nissan, since their silence suggests that they really did make decisions that, if made public, would shame them.
It was also clearly the general impression, as there was a lot of discussion about the Washington state sales tax exemption for new EVs bought before the end of calendar year 2010. That exemption was later extended, but at the time we ordered it was set to expire, and there was a clear understanding that the cars were promised to come in December, so that when it later appeared that they might not, it generated much angst.
Then there were posts on this board (though not by Nissan) that apparently Nissan decided to divert production to Japan, and deliver only a few token cars here to give the impression that they were fulfilling a promise to BEGIN deliveries in December, on account of a tax break in Japan. But the pretext that now the original promise was to BEGIN deliveries in December was very shallow and transparent, because delivering ONE car in December, while literally a start, was clearly the merest of tokens, and clearly a violation of the spirit, even if the promise had been only to begin deliveries then.
Put all together, it is clear that Nissan changed their minds, and the fact that they were too dishonorable to just come right out and admit it gives credence to my assertion that they were just plain backing out of their promise.
Losing orders made it worse, but once it became clear that orders were lost, they could have reallocated cars, delaying all the February orders by a few days. Instead they chose to delay the lost orders by months.
The pollen made it worse, but once it became clear that it would take months to clean those cars, they could have reallocated cars, delaying all the February orders by a few days. Instead they chose to delay the pollen car orders by months.
The failure-to-start problem made it worse, but, as above, instead of reallocating orders and delaying the February orders by a few days, they chose to delay ours by months.
Nissan promised that cars would be delivered in the order they were ordered, but when the above snafus developed, they made NO effort to reallocate cars in order to keep this promise. And their reallocation of VIN 1201 after it was in Portland and assigned to me, shows that they were certainly capable of reallocating cars if they wanted to. And I do not believe I am the only one this happened to, as a lot of cars promised for late April never were delivered, and those people are still waiting.
The earthquake and tsunami was a horrible disaster and my thoughts and sympathies are with the people who were affected and their friends and families. But had Nissan kept their original promise, this would not have affected any 2010 orders.
Packet's comment that Japanese companies often keep quiet when they have screwed up is very telling, and only reinforces my low opinion of Nissan, since their silence suggests that they really did make decisions that, if made public, would shame them.
evnow
Well-known member
Nissan was careful not to say anything about actual December deliveries.
Some speculated that all 5 regions will get full quota of 900 or so EV Project cars in December. I don't think that ever merited much serious consideration.
No doubt Nissan has been going slow (very slow in the US - we know the reasons).
Bottom line - I don't care. I'm happy atleast one auto major is actually spending Billions of dollars making EVs. Just look at how Toyota has been dragging its feet on Plugin Prius. In the whole scheme of things, Nissan's delays are trivial.
ps : Ok, here is the source of that 4700 number. That is the number of EVSEs ecotality was to install.
Some speculated that all 5 regions will get full quota of 900 or so EV Project cars in December. I don't think that ever merited much serious consideration.
No doubt Nissan has been going slow (very slow in the US - we know the reasons).
Bottom line - I don't care. I'm happy atleast one auto major is actually spending Billions of dollars making EVs. Just look at how Toyota has been dragging its feet on Plugin Prius. In the whole scheme of things, Nissan's delays are trivial.
ps : Ok, here is the source of that 4700 number. That is the number of EVSEs ecotality was to install.
daniel
Well-known member
Customer Service told me, way back at the beginning, that 900 to 1000 cars would be delivered to each of the initial roll-out states in December. I spoke to them several times back then, and each rep I spoke with told me the same thing. That seemed to accord with the 4,700 number that was floating around. Later, when it appeared unlikely that all those cars would arrive in December, Customer Service told me that some of the cars might not arrive until January.
I agree that it's a good thing they are making these cars. But I do not trust a company that shows such utter and complete contempt for its customers as Nissan has shown for those of us affected first by its incompetence, and then by its decision to do absolutely nothing to rectify the effects of that incompetence.
I agree that it's a good thing they are making these cars. But I do not trust a company that shows such utter and complete contempt for its customers as Nissan has shown for those of us affected first by its incompetence, and then by its decision to do absolutely nothing to rectify the effects of that incompetence.
Daniel, I agree that the delivery has been less than stellar and that Nissan Marketing has pushed beyond the envelope in some instances. On the specifics of the car deliveries, I was told by someone way better placed than a CS representative that the plan was to deliver about 800 cars by January. That didn't happen. They were late. So what? It's not like the Leaf was the first new product to be a little late. I can't see how this was such a big deal. They never really promised this in any formal way.
Seems to me the biggest trust issue with Nissan doesn't have anything to do with the deliveries. Stuff happens. On the other hand, the claim that the Leaf has a 100 mile range does raise some issues. The 100 mile range was hype to begin with. Add the recommendation to only charge to 80% and you're looking at awarding a few "Pinocchios".
The lack of transparency on charging continues to be troubling. On the one hand Mark Perry has downplayed its significance saying it wouldn't make much of a difference. On the other the manual makes something of a deal about it and Ecotality called to emphasize the recommendation was to only charge to 80%. So what is it? Seems that Nissan should let its customers know what the deal is and be done with it, one way or the other.
While they're at it they can also be more clear about the battery capacity and the usable SOC. No reason for being secretive at this point. Every other manufacturer has already taken apart the car and the battery piece by piece.
Seems to me the biggest trust issue with Nissan doesn't have anything to do with the deliveries. Stuff happens. On the other hand, the claim that the Leaf has a 100 mile range does raise some issues. The 100 mile range was hype to begin with. Add the recommendation to only charge to 80% and you're looking at awarding a few "Pinocchios".
The lack of transparency on charging continues to be troubling. On the one hand Mark Perry has downplayed its significance saying it wouldn't make much of a difference. On the other the manual makes something of a deal about it and Ecotality called to emphasize the recommendation was to only charge to 80%. So what is it? Seems that Nissan should let its customers know what the deal is and be done with it, one way or the other.
While they're at it they can also be more clear about the battery capacity and the usable SOC. No reason for being secretive at this point. Every other manufacturer has already taken apart the car and the battery piece by piece.
evnow said:
Almost all the roll-out state EV activists have their cars by now. I pointed out this phenomenon earlier:
BlueSL said:
The sentiment of this board will soon change. The EV activists will dwindle into the minority and ordinary customers with ordinary expectations about how they should be treated by a large multinational corporation to whom they are paying more than $20,000 will become predominant.
In the meantime, I cannot for the life of me understand why people who have their cars feel the need to post in a thread like this one. This thread is not for you. It never was.
daniel
Well-known member
Any member can post in any thread, so I don't think we should be telling owners that they cannot or should not post here. However, when people who got their cars in a timely manner belittle the complaints of people who've been passed over in favor of much later orderers, it rings hollow.
And while I agree with SanDust that Nissan should be more forthcoming about issues concerning the car itself, I cannot speak to that issue since I've only ever had about ten minutes in one. It does, however, reinforce my mistrust of Nissan when different people inside Nissan give radically different advice on how to best care for the batteries, given that Nissan will not say how rapidly a properly-cared-for battery pack will lose its capacity.
And while I agree with SanDust that Nissan should be more forthcoming about issues concerning the car itself, I cannot speak to that issue since I've only ever had about ten minutes in one. It does, however, reinforce my mistrust of Nissan when different people inside Nissan give radically different advice on how to best care for the batteries, given that Nissan will not say how rapidly a properly-cared-for battery pack will lose its capacity.
LEAFfan
Well-known member
Packet said:
This is Nissan USA, not Japan. There's a BIG difference with the way the USA runs its branch here vs. Japan's. You may have lived in Japan for a short while, but my wife was born there and lived there many years before she came to the States, and she is appalled at the way Nissan operates here. She told me that when there was a problem with a Japanese product, not only would she receive a personal phone call, but a personal visit to her home as well and was well compensated for the problem. The Japanese DO care about their customers, unlike here.
Packet
Well-known member
My experience is that if there's one or two customers, they'll deal with it in an amazingly prompt and personal fashion. If it's a widespread problem, they tend to not want to say anything at all until they figure out something... and if they can't figure out something in a timely manner, they tend to just remain silent. (This was my experience not only having lived there as a kid, but having worked with Japanese tech companies as partners at a past job.)LEAFfan said:
The philosophy seems to be: until you can announce a fix is already underway, don't make any formal statement at all. As I said, see also Sony's silence on the PSN issue, or the way TEPCO really didn't want to communicate in depth about the situation at Fukushima Dai-ichi for a long time (leading to many conflicting reports initially about whether or not the most-damaged reactor had actually entered meltdown or no).
My gut feeling here is that Nissan (the Japanese parent company) doesn't want to issue any sort of statement on the delivery mess-ups until Nissan USA is prepared to deal with them, and that Nissan USA can't get their ducks in a row to do so. So the fault that this has become such a mess is probably Nissan USA's, but I'd bet the lack of overall communication is from on-high at the parent company.
evnow
Well-known member
They always emphasized that 100 mile was on LA04. Having driven 88 miles yesterday on 80% charge, I definitely think Leaf will do 100 miles on LA04.SanDust said:
The recommendation to charge only to 80% makes some sense - but I think it has been overblown here.
I think the biggest problem we have had really with Nissan is lack of communication. When they don't come out and tell us what is happening - esp. when CS seem to make up things on the go instead of just saying they don't know - then people are going to speculate.
Ofcourse, Nissan is hardly the first or only company with this problem. This problem is endemic in the corporate world.
Steve
Well-known member
For what it's worth, I've been at this for over a year now, waiting anxiously, excited and ready to go. I put my name in the hat as soon as I could, and maybe because I seem to be approaching the end of the journey, I'm inclined to be more generous. But what I keep wondering is what exactly did you guys expect? This is the bleeding edge of the rollout. More than just the rollout of a new car, this is the rollout of an entirely new line of automobile coupled with the rollout of an entirely new infrastructure.
I can only imagine the complexity of the entire thing, and ultimately, I'm MUCH more concerned with attaching myself to a dealer that operates with integrity than any concerns about Nissan USA. If the dealer is willing to take care of me, I'm confident that I'll be satisfied in the end.
Personally, as excited and anxious (and nervous) as I am about being on the bloody edge of this thing, I've reminded myself to just relax and be patient. I know I'm coming in at 49 pages into the thread, so if I've rehashed or reopened a sentiment that's been expressed over and over, feel free to disregard.
Regarding communication, there are many schools of thought on this. If they are continuously coming out, making promises and telling us that everything's okay, wouldn't you guys be bitching about how defensive they sound? My experience is that some people are going to complain, and nothing will change that.
I can only imagine the complexity of the entire thing, and ultimately, I'm MUCH more concerned with attaching myself to a dealer that operates with integrity than any concerns about Nissan USA. If the dealer is willing to take care of me, I'm confident that I'll be satisfied in the end.
Personally, as excited and anxious (and nervous) as I am about being on the bloody edge of this thing, I've reminded myself to just relax and be patient. I know I'm coming in at 49 pages into the thread, so if I've rehashed or reopened a sentiment that's been expressed over and over, feel free to disregard.
Regarding communication, there are many schools of thought on this. If they are continuously coming out, making promises and telling us that everything's okay, wouldn't you guys be bitching about how defensive they sound? My experience is that some people are going to complain, and nothing will change that.
daniel
Well-known member
Honesty.Steve said:
LEAFfan
Well-known member
Steve said:
That's no excuse for lack of honesty, integrity, and incompetence. By stating to Nissan our concerns (you call it complaining) we can help make it better for future owners. But you seem to have lower standards and remind me of the people that say, "Love your country or leave it." "If you don't like the way things are going, just leave." You're a very typical person that doesn't care about doing anything to make improvements, just the status quo, and don't rock the boat! :roll:
LEAFfan said:
I think that's the number one thing a big corporation can do; give customers a way to improve the company by listening, making a plan to fix issues, and actually following through. People who are good at "executive customer service" have the power and skills to turn a negative customer/experience into a positive one. One of my favorite things is when a company does this and I leave happier than before. Nissan obviously has not been able to do this at all, it does seem like Brian/Brendan are able to though, but I have not yet been able to get in contact with them.
Haven't read most of the thread, but I agree with Daniel for the most part.
With the fairly low number of cars they're dealing with, there is no excuse for the level of misinformation they're providing without any notification: my dashboard has been saying "Week of June 3rd" for two weeks now, but I have to chat with them on Friday (yes, June 3rd) to find out that the car is still in Long Beach. Oh, and it's still there today - with the dashboard unchanged. Now they're saying that for the orphan cars (Sept/Oct orders, not abandoned vehicles), the dashboard date is meaningless...??
Take a 10-year old, provide a few hours of Excel training, and sit him down in Long Beach; hand him a cell phone to call customers when their VIN passes him on the way out of their facility. That's all it would take to significantly improve their dashboard.
There is also no excuse for the utter lack of follow-up, despite NUMEROUS promises from multiple of their customer service reps that I would receive a phone call from their supervisor (regarding unrelated email issues; essentially, I've never received a single message from them by email; their notification messages to me supposedly bounced back for over a year but they didn't think that warranted a notification so that I can fix it). This has been going on for a couple of months, and not ONCE did I receive a phone call from a single supervisor... but send an email and mention that you're concerned enough about the distribution of your personal data to contact the Better Business Bureau, and suddenly you're contacted by phone AND email.
I can't believe how a company that's bold enough to take the lead on electric vehicles is willing to jeopardize all this goodwill with the lack of customer service.
With the fairly low number of cars they're dealing with, there is no excuse for the level of misinformation they're providing without any notification: my dashboard has been saying "Week of June 3rd" for two weeks now, but I have to chat with them on Friday (yes, June 3rd) to find out that the car is still in Long Beach. Oh, and it's still there today - with the dashboard unchanged. Now they're saying that for the orphan cars (Sept/Oct orders, not abandoned vehicles), the dashboard date is meaningless...??
Take a 10-year old, provide a few hours of Excel training, and sit him down in Long Beach; hand him a cell phone to call customers when their VIN passes him on the way out of their facility. That's all it would take to significantly improve their dashboard.
There is also no excuse for the utter lack of follow-up, despite NUMEROUS promises from multiple of their customer service reps that I would receive a phone call from their supervisor (regarding unrelated email issues; essentially, I've never received a single message from them by email; their notification messages to me supposedly bounced back for over a year but they didn't think that warranted a notification so that I can fix it). This has been going on for a couple of months, and not ONCE did I receive a phone call from a single supervisor... but send an email and mention that you're concerned enough about the distribution of your personal data to contact the Better Business Bureau, and suddenly you're contacted by phone AND email.
I can't believe how a company that's bold enough to take the lead on electric vehicles is willing to jeopardize all this goodwill with the lack of customer service.
HIOJim
Well-known member
Nissan is probably treating us the way it treats its dealers - the only other customer it has any experience with. Which is a shame, because they are alienating what should have been an easily acquired pool of Nissan advocates. A lot of the people on the Forum love the car but spit when they hear Nissan's name mentioned.PDXKraut said:
I think the company should get back to letting their dealers interact with the public as quickly as possible so this debacle will have a limited impact.
Coffee_Slurry
Well-known member
If you want to see how the other half lives, go sniff around the Volt forums to see how GM is interacting with their customers. From the CAB onward, it has been a demonstration of how yes, even a large car company can do things a new way.
I'm guessing their satisfaction survey results look a little different than Nissans. Just a hunch.
I have no qualms about REAMING Nissan North America Sales any time someone asks about the Leaf experience and whether they should get one. I use the lowest marks in surveys, from JD Powers to Nissan's and whatever gets sent my way, and tar the whole company with the same brush.
I'm guessing their satisfaction survey results look a little different than Nissans. Just a hunch.
I have no qualms about REAMING Nissan North America Sales any time someone asks about the Leaf experience and whether they should get one. I use the lowest marks in surveys, from JD Powers to Nissan's and whatever gets sent my way, and tar the whole company with the same brush.
evnow
Well-known member
a.k.a. Utopia :lol:daniel said:
Steve
Well-known member
We know each other? We must. Surely after one post you wouldn't jump to conclusions about a person whom you've never met, implying things that aren't true, insulting and generally acting rudely.LEAFfan said:
I care very much about improvements. I would even go so far as to say that anyone willing to jump into an initiative like this is someone interested in improving things. If you think about it, accusing anyone interested in buying an electric car of being someone who "doesn't care about doing anything to make improvements, just the status quo and don't rock the boat" is kind of laughable. That's everything buying an EV isn't. We're on the same team here.
I'm willing to extend some goodwill to Nissan, as well. Clearly they're interested in something new, too, or they wouldn't be bothering with all of this.
I'm also realistic, and try to give people (and corporations with whom I'm dealing) the benefit of the doubt. Am I saying that you were dealt with fairly? No. I have no idea how YOU were treated. I'll just say that if you were as disrespectful and sanctimonious with the Nissan reps as you're acting with me, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they reciprocated.
Once again, just to be clear. Has everything gone perfectly for me? No. But was it predictable? Absolutely it was. To expect this thing to happen without hiccups along the way is unreasonable, in my opinion. Ultimately, within a few short months we'll all have shiny, new Leafs and can say good bye to $4/gallon gas. We're all interested in changing the status quo. We're all trying to do something pretty cool.
Steve
Well-known member
They're actively, intentionally lying? I haven't experienced that. I've dealt with miscommunication and some misinformation personally, but nothing lead me to believe that it was intentional. I'm not going to get too worked up about some miscommunication with a world-wide project of this scope. But you're saying that it someone intentionally, specifically lied to you? Serious allegation, and if it happened to me, I'd be upset, too.daniel said:
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