RegGuheert
Well-known member
It seems that reducing CO2 emissions in only some countries has the overall effect of increasing worldwide CO2 emissions:
Climate Change: The Standard Fixes Don't Work
Climate Change: The Standard Fixes Don't Work
Pretty much, yeah. If only the developing world would just be content to continue living with a 18th century agricultural economy things would have worked out! :roll:LakeLeaf said:Conclusion - that the world's enlightened cultures should hoard all of the oil supply, thus forcing the rest of the world into heavy usage of wind and solar in order to meet their needs?
+1Smidge204 said:Pretty much, yeah. If only the developing world would just be content to continue living with a 18th century agricultural economy things would have worked out! :roll:LakeLeaf said:Conclusion - that the world's enlightened cultures should hoard all of the oil supply, thus forcing the rest of the world into heavy usage of wind and solar in order to meet their needs?
I think the biggest failing is not providing developing economies with the incentives and support to go directly to cleaner energy sources. You need energy if you want to grow, so if you want to reduce carbon emissions globally you either have to prevent growth (e.g. apply carbon emissions restrictions on developing economies) or make sure non-carbon energy is at least on par with fossil fuels in terms of cost so they don't fall into the same trap.
=Smidge=
I think the point here is that once you have provided energy from a new fuel source, this new source pollutes the environment and the old source STILL gets consumed and it ALSO pollutes the environment. This is a direct conclusion of the "Maximum Power Principle" she mentions in the article.GreenPowerDP said:2. Adding substitutes adds to Carbon emissions: this one gave me the most heartburn. Her argument is that it takes coal and gas to manufacture the substitute fuel - thereby increasing net CO2. However, it also takes coal and gas (well electricity) to manufacture gasoline, so if substitutes emit less CO2 when burned, there is less net CO2 generation than if that same energy was used to produce gasoline. If a substitute fuel is cleaner and takes less electricity to produce - we have a winner.
Again, the "Maximum Power Principle" says the old fuel will still get used for something because it is available. It would be nice to think we would leave the oil in the ground or use it only to make plastics, but would we?GreenPowerDP said:I was somewhat disappointed that someone with her credentials didn't talk about a lower cost alternative to gasoline. I get that if the US cuts back on oil consumption, that frees up oil to go to another country where environmental laws are less restrictive - but what if we found a cheaper alternative that was cleaner? It would seem that economics would prompt a switch to the cheaper fuel.
Sure, but your assertion also makes two significant assumptions:GreenPowerDP said:The idea that if we don't use the oil, someone else will is only valid if they don't have a cheaper alternative. Oil wells are shut down when the extraction/bbl cost falls below some market value - not when they run dry. We pump oil only if it is profitable.
RegGuheert said:Sure, but your assertion also makes two significant assumptions:GreenPowerDP said:The idea that if we don't use the oil, someone else will is only valid if they don't have a cheaper alternative. Oil wells are shut down when the extraction/bbl cost falls below some market value - not when they run dry. We pump oil only if it is profitable.
1) The cheaper alternative is cheaper for ALL applications of the incumbent energy source.
2) The cheaper alternative is available in the quantities sufficient to fully replace the incumbent source.
RegGuheert said:Sure, but your assertion also makes two significant assumptions:
1) The cheaper alternative is cheaper for ALL applications of the incumbent energy source.
2) The cheaper alternative is available in the quantities sufficient to fully replace the incumbent source.
If either or both of these assumptions are false, then the oil will still have economic value and will be pumped out of the ground and burned. You can't simply flip a switch and have have all the infrastructure for the newcomer appear. It takes time to ramp up all that is needed for the new technologies.
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