wrldsgrtstmiracle
Member
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2023
- Messages
- 13
LeftieBiker said:
Facts haha. True! I hope we all had a good holiday and enjoyed the break it gave us.
The battery replacement/buyback thread.
- Thread starter mitrals
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
Facts haha. True! I hope we all had a good holiday and enjoyed the break it gave us.
binks
Well-known member
I lost bar 4 this week and my car is going in dec 11
crimsona
Active member
I sent Nissan Canada an email last night after my dealer hung up on me for the 4th time in 3 months, and 2 callbacks that I have never received. It's like they have my number flagged as Spam or annoying customer or something.
No buyback offers in Canada and no hint of anybody in FB Canadian groups getting a replacement either for 2016-17 in the last year
No buyback offers in Canada and no hint of anybody in FB Canadian groups getting a replacement either for 2016-17 in the last year
binks
Well-known member
crimsona said:
So you are saying a lawsuit is the only way?
Joining the thread.
My 2016 Leaf was accepted for battery replacement. There's a wrinkle though.
My son drives the car, so I don't know exactly when it dropped to 8 bars. It has about 47k miles. We bought it used in 2020 with one bar down and 32k miles.
The ion battery is causing problems with the 12V battery, so I can't drive it until the ion battery is replaced. The 12V battery isn't being charged (we just replaced the 12V, so that's not the problem), and they think the faulty battery (which is at 8 bars and qualifies for replacement anyway) is causing the issue.
I had it towed to the dealership on Friday 11/24/23, and Nissan accepted it for warranty replacement on Monday 11/27/23. The dealer seemed to think that it was going to be replaced, not a buyback, but couldn't give a timeframe.
Son is off at college right now, so we aren't in a hurry to get the car back, and we'd rather have a reliable car for him to drive over the summer than a buyback.
My 2016 Leaf was accepted for battery replacement. There's a wrinkle though.
My son drives the car, so I don't know exactly when it dropped to 8 bars. It has about 47k miles. We bought it used in 2020 with one bar down and 32k miles.
The ion battery is causing problems with the 12V battery, so I can't drive it until the ion battery is replaced. The 12V battery isn't being charged (we just replaced the 12V, so that's not the problem), and they think the faulty battery (which is at 8 bars and qualifies for replacement anyway) is causing the issue.
I had it towed to the dealership on Friday 11/24/23, and Nissan accepted it for warranty replacement on Monday 11/27/23. The dealer seemed to think that it was going to be replaced, not a buyback, but couldn't give a timeframe.
Son is off at college right now, so we aren't in a hurry to get the car back, and we'd rather have a reliable car for him to drive over the summer than a buyback.
Anything is possible, but I've never heard of an 8 bar Leaf that stopped charging the 12 volt battery because of the degradation...
TorSmyslov
Member
I received my buyback offer letter today. I have some questions about terms.
What does "Less loan payoff" and "Amount due to client" mean?
I'm assuming "less loan payoff means" what they will pay the bank and "Amount due to client" is to me directly.
Am I correct?
What does "Less loan payoff" and "Amount due to client" mean?
I'm assuming "less loan payoff means" what they will pay the bank and "Amount due to client" is to me directly.
Am I correct?
Nords
Well-known member
Here’s an update on my initial post.
The BBB Auto Line complaint is detailed, and I suspect they get a lot of them. They validate your initial info and then send you a link to their website. That’s where you set up your account and then fill out the customer claim form with the details: the auto’s VIN, the damage, the repairs & dates, the service center, the vehicle’s mileage, and how you want the manufacturer to resolve your claim. You have 72 hours to upload additional documentation and images.
Between 15-18 November I worked through the data entry. The BBB validated our claim, assigned a case number, and began their process.
On 16 November the third Nissan caller left voicemail announcing that the Warranty Resolution team had assigned our case to the Arbitration Department. I was promised that they’d review the case and call in 3-5 business days. The caller didn’t even try to pretend to know anything about a battery pack.
On 21 November, BBB Auto Line e-mailed that they’d opened the claim and contacted Nissan “to see if there are any possible offers they would like to extend.”
Coincidentally, on 21 November Nissan’s Arbitration rep e-mailed that “Nissan North America is in the position to offer a repurchase of your vehicle.”
Nissan’s document request:
• A legible copy of the vehicle’s current registration
• A copy of the vehicle’s title application
• A copy of the original purchase agreement
• A copy of the lienholder information release form (enclosed)
• A copy of the payment history of the lien
• A 10-day payoff from your lienholder
• Pictures of all 4 sides of the vehicle and the interior.
I responded that (1) we’d rather discuss when Nissan would ship the replacement battery, but that (2) we’d be willing to review a non-binding offer to buy the car. I included the documents we had available.
The “original purchase agreement” on our 2017 Leaf (bought in July 2019) was a handshake, not a piece of paper. Hawaii law doesn’t require a bill of sale if the odometer displays the correct mileage, and the seller simply signs over the title. To my grateful surprise, my spouse had a photo of the $14,000 cashier’s check that we bought from our Navy Federal Credit Union. Better yet, NFCU messaged me their archived image of the seller’s deposit of that check.
Considering all the lender info that Nissan wanted, paying cash for a used car saved me several more hours of administrivial pursuit.
I also gave Nissan the case number from BBB Auto Line.
Yesterday, 28 November, Nissan’s rep e-mailed:
“I just wanted to confirm that you are wanting to review an offer for repurchase of your vehicle. Do you have a copy of the bill of sale? If so, please provide at your earliest convenience.”
I wrote back that we really wanted to hear from someone at Nissan who can tell us if they’re going to replace the battery pack, and when will they do that?
Then I added that if Nissan wants to offer to buy back the Leaf, we’ll consider accepting the offer.
Finally I emphasized that there is no bill of sale.
I don’t understand why Nissan is anchored on the bill-of-sale question when there’s no lien. Hopefully they’ll stop chasing that issue and decide to work from the car’s current value with their databases, or from services like Kelley Blue Book or Edmunds. When I run those numbers I get values like $7700-$11K.
I’m beginning to think this “offer” is going to drag on into 2024. Fortunately our Leaf’s insurance is only about $40/month.
I’m really glad we bought our replacement 2018 Leaf before we began negotiating on the warranty of the 2017 Leaf. At this point I won’t drive the warranty Leaf anyway (its battery could leave us shut down on the side of the highway) but at least we’re still a two-car family.
The BBB Auto Line complaint is detailed, and I suspect they get a lot of them. They validate your initial info and then send you a link to their website. That’s where you set up your account and then fill out the customer claim form with the details: the auto’s VIN, the damage, the repairs & dates, the service center, the vehicle’s mileage, and how you want the manufacturer to resolve your claim. You have 72 hours to upload additional documentation and images.
Between 15-18 November I worked through the data entry. The BBB validated our claim, assigned a case number, and began their process.
On 16 November the third Nissan caller left voicemail announcing that the Warranty Resolution team had assigned our case to the Arbitration Department. I was promised that they’d review the case and call in 3-5 business days. The caller didn’t even try to pretend to know anything about a battery pack.
On 21 November, BBB Auto Line e-mailed that they’d opened the claim and contacted Nissan “to see if there are any possible offers they would like to extend.”
Coincidentally, on 21 November Nissan’s Arbitration rep e-mailed that “Nissan North America is in the position to offer a repurchase of your vehicle.”
Nissan’s document request:
• A legible copy of the vehicle’s current registration
• A copy of the vehicle’s title application
• A copy of the original purchase agreement
• A copy of the lienholder information release form (enclosed)
• A copy of the payment history of the lien
• A 10-day payoff from your lienholder
• Pictures of all 4 sides of the vehicle and the interior.
I responded that (1) we’d rather discuss when Nissan would ship the replacement battery, but that (2) we’d be willing to review a non-binding offer to buy the car. I included the documents we had available.
The “original purchase agreement” on our 2017 Leaf (bought in July 2019) was a handshake, not a piece of paper. Hawaii law doesn’t require a bill of sale if the odometer displays the correct mileage, and the seller simply signs over the title. To my grateful surprise, my spouse had a photo of the $14,000 cashier’s check that we bought from our Navy Federal Credit Union. Better yet, NFCU messaged me their archived image of the seller’s deposit of that check.
Considering all the lender info that Nissan wanted, paying cash for a used car saved me several more hours of administrivial pursuit.
I also gave Nissan the case number from BBB Auto Line.
Yesterday, 28 November, Nissan’s rep e-mailed:
“I just wanted to confirm that you are wanting to review an offer for repurchase of your vehicle. Do you have a copy of the bill of sale? If so, please provide at your earliest convenience.”
I wrote back that we really wanted to hear from someone at Nissan who can tell us if they’re going to replace the battery pack, and when will they do that?
Then I added that if Nissan wants to offer to buy back the Leaf, we’ll consider accepting the offer.
Finally I emphasized that there is no bill of sale.
I don’t understand why Nissan is anchored on the bill-of-sale question when there’s no lien. Hopefully they’ll stop chasing that issue and decide to work from the car’s current value with their databases, or from services like Kelley Blue Book or Edmunds. When I run those numbers I get values like $7700-$11K.
I’m beginning to think this “offer” is going to drag on into 2024. Fortunately our Leaf’s insurance is only about $40/month.
I’m really glad we bought our replacement 2018 Leaf before we began negotiating on the warranty of the 2017 Leaf. At this point I won’t drive the warranty Leaf anyway (its battery could leave us shut down on the side of the highway) but at least we’re still a two-car family.
Nords said:
It's simple. Nissan wants to set the buyback amount in relation to what was (last) paid for the car. Nissan is screwing the (original) customer who suffered high depreciation. I somewhat agree with Nissan that e.g. you do not deserve a windfall, but I sure as hell don't think that Nissan should pocket the depreciation.
I don't have any personal interest in these warranty claims since I dumped Nissan two years ago. I'm not at all surprised at how this is playing out although I did not guess the specifics correctly. I just know that Nissan will screw you if at all possible. Nothing has really changed since the Klee court case: Absent a class action lawsuit Vs Nissan, customers are swimming in Nissan's sewage.
whidbeyleafer said:
That's the source of a lot of frustration. Nissan's basically exploiting weakness in the law surrounding warranties to minimize their costs in any way possible.
Some observations of what we know (with associated speculation):
- Battery packs for whatever reason are hard to come by. Maybe it's availability of raw materials. Maybe it's labor/throughput at the factory. Maybe Nissan doesn't want to pay as much as the factory's new owner/manufacturer would want in order to prioritize production of more. No one here really knows for sure.
- Whatever batteries are available are being prioritized first for new cars, as is clear by the fact that Nissan continued to produce 2023 and now 2024 Leafs without any apparent constraint.
- Remaining supply then goes primarily to 2018+ Leafs, as seen by reports of those cars only waiting a few weeks for battery replacements. This is probably due to a combination of factors:
- It would cost more to buy out one of these newer cars.
- There's a bit of displaying good will towards the existing and potential future customers, who might need to be more reassured that Nissan stands behind their obligations.
- These replacements are largely under the battery functionality warranty, not the battery capacity warranty, and Nissan likely thinks they have more need to reassure customers that the battery isn't going to outright fail during the first few years of ownership than they do to reassure people about the longevity of the battery.
- Any remaining batteries are probably not being prioritized by how long someone's on the waitlist. We've seen reports here and elsewhere of people getting batteries after 9 months, and people not getting batteries who've been waiting for more than 15 months.
There's something else that Nissan is using to allocate batteries (and my guess is that it's all about the cost to buy back the vehicle). For someone like the previous poster who is owed a lot of money, my suspicion is that they would have gotten a battery a lot quicker if they chose to wait for it. For someone like you or me where Nissan can get away with paying less, if we chose to wait for a battery replacement we'd be waiting until the heat death of the universe.
So, to address your confusion: Why can Nissan get away with this? Simple. Because the law allows them too.
At the federal level, the main law governing warranties is the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. That law covers all sorts of things like wording of warranties, availability of warranty text before purchase, and prohibiting things like voiding the warranty if a required battery inspection isn't performed
cough. In the case of a defect, the manufacturer can choose to either 1) repair, 2) replacement or 3) refund. That's the manufacturer's choice, not the customer's (although refund can't be the first choice).- "Refund" can only be chosen when repair isn't possible or when the manufacturer and customer both agree to do that instead of repair.
- “Replacement” means "furnishing a new consumer product which is identical or reasonably equivalent to the warranted consumer product". That could be satisfied by Nissan giving someone a brand new Leaf. Nissan ain't gonna choose that.
- In the case of repair, the act doesn't force the manufacturer to repair the product/vehicle. If the manufacturer chooses repair, the act only requires that the manufacturer do a "timely" repair and "timely" isn't defined anywhere, not in the act nor in case law. If the manufacturer doesn't want to give away a new car, and a repair can't be done in a timely fashion or "is not commercially practicable", that pretty much means refund is the only remaining remedy.
Refund means "refunding the actual purchase price (less reasonable depreciation based on actual use...". In my case, I paid $9000 for the car, plus tax and other associated fees and repairs making my total cost of acquisition $11k. I took it to the dealer for the warranty claim the day after I bought it, so had essentially zero use of the car before the warranty, so no depreciation. Even after I convinced Nissan to use my more expansive view of what my actual purchase price was, that means they can get out of their warranty obligation for a measly $11k (and in your case, even less).
A lawsuit wouldn't help there. If I sue them under this federal law, I'd quickly win the case, and be awarded the maximum remedy the law allows, which is... actual purchase price. The only difference is I could also get awarded attorney's fees. One would hope that the possible award of plaintiff's attorney's fees as well as their own legal costs would encourage Nissan to find a more reasonable settlement. However, in my case, I couldn't find an attorney willing to take the case on contingency, and didn't want to front the fees myself when success wasn't 100% guaranteed, and when I've already had to front the money for a replacement car while I wait for these buyback shenanigans to conclude.
Now, state laws also cover warranties, either explicitly, or implicitly through such laws as requiring items sold be "fit for purpose" or whatever. Most states have automobile lemon laws, but most state lemon laws wouldn't be remotely applicable to our situations. In my state for example, the state lemon law only covers new cars, not cars purchased used, and even then only for a year from date of purchase and with a bunch of other carveouts (we have a strong auto dealer lobby here). No other law in my state would back me up, because... freedoms, I guess.
Some states are better, and that forces Nissan in some cases to make more generous calculations of depreciation since getting sued under state law could force that out of them anyway, but at least in my situation that was irrelevant.
What about class actions? That's possible, but there has to still be an alleged violation of law, and someone has to find a lawyer that's interested. I contacted the three lawyers that represented the plaintiffs in the Klee lawsuit, and one doesn't do plaintiff work anymore and the other two weren't interested. No other lawyers I contacted were interested, although several seemed confused that a 2016 vehicle would even still have a warranty, so I'm not sure they all understood the issue. Or maybe they understand fine, and there's no case.
There might be no case, because a class action alleging violations of Magnuson-Moss would, at best, result in Nissan giving owners what they are already offering to owners. So, there would have to be some other violation of law. I think that what Nissan is doing here by prioritizing customers in order of profitability is shady and immoral. I think that the games that they are playing by lying to people and telling them the batteries aren't being manufactured anymore is even more shady and immoral. However, I'm not sure those things are in violation of any law.
Class action lawsuits are filed all of the time alleging violations of the law that probably aren't actually provable to be violations. However, they're done to force the defendant to do something as a preferable alternative to defending the suit all the way to trial. Maybe that could work here to force Nissan to make better buyout offers. I'd love it if it did. Problem is finding someone to kick it off. Unless someone's finding a lawyer interested in doing this in the hope of a future payday or is interested in fronting attorney's fees themselves, it's not going to happen.
Nissan shouldn't be able to weasel out of their warranty obligations so easily. I bought a car with a warranty that promised something. I should get that thing (a repaired car) or the monetary value of that thing (the value of a car with a fixed battery), not just what I paid for the car (which was the low price of a car with a broken battery). Refunding the money just puts me back to square one financially, and doesn't get me what Nissan promised when they sold the car. When Nissan announced the 2024 Leaf, that flipped a switch in me igniting the fury of a thousand suns. I couldn't believe they would continue to produce new cars with batteries that should rightfully be going to existing owners. Every 2024 Leaf should be affixed with a giant middle finger decal on the outside for existing Leaf owners to see exactly how Nissan feels about them, as well as another one on the dashboard to let the new owner what Nissan is going to think of the new owner and Nissan's long-term obligations to them.
I'm beyond frustrated with Nissan about this and will never be a Nissan customer again, but I have to acknowledge that the law is likely on their side here. My anger is, or needs to be, somewhat directed at the law here.
I've spent the last few months trying to convince someone at Nissan that I should be owed something more representative of a LEAF with a new battery. I've sent blue book info and tons of comparable sale listings to support what I thought should be fair. I've asked nicely. I've asked angrily. I've appealed to whatever morals they have. I've argued that it's more costly to them to put a new battery in my car then to pay what I was asking, so they should accept my counter offer or I'll wait for the battery, ultimately costing them more. I'm sure they laughed at that. I've argued that they should sweeten the offer to get me to accept it because it would keep them from having to buy out someone with a more expensive car. No go. I've at least tried to get them to cover a loaner or rental since my car is now undriveable in the cold. Flat out refusal.
So, fine. They won. They hold all the cards, and they know that, and they broke me. I bought a Bolt last night, then signed the Leaf repurchase offer and sent it back this morning. Now, the only thing left is to use every ounce of self-control I have not to bury a few frozen pork chops under the seats when I turn the car over to them.
Thanks for the detailed breakdown and law information.
I’m just glad I surrendered my leaf and got the $ in hand back on 11/1/2023.
I’m very happy with my 2020 Chevy bolt with a new battery. Chevy seemed to have no prob replacing all those batteries! ~250 miles on a charge!
I’m just glad I surrendered my leaf and got the $ in hand back on 11/1/2023.
I’m very happy with my 2020 Chevy bolt with a new battery. Chevy seemed to have no prob replacing all those batteries! ~250 miles on a charge!
New to this forum, and sadly only found it because I'm now dealing with a battery warranty issue (in BC, Canada). 2019 SV with ~30,000 km. Car wouldn't turn on, so had it towed to the dealership. They diagnosed the battery as having multiple faulty components and determined the full battery needed to be replaced. Initial ETA was 2 weeks - within a week, it then went to 2 months, and then 6+ months (so essentially no ETA). Shocked that this is possible with a major car brand like Nissan. Will post updates here, and interested hear from others in Canada who may have had better luck (although from what I've seen in the thread, most are seeing similar timelines).
ebeighe
Well-known member
I got my letter of intent to offer a buyback --
question for those of you who've done this: how long does it take to produce an initial offer?
short backstory is I opened a claim right away with NNA (Nissan North America) back in October when battery was diagnosed as degraded and warranty replacement was approved. They called me in late Oct and left voicemail saying a battery would arrive at dealer no later than Feb 24, 2024.
I called NNA a couple of days ago and told them a new battery would be great but i didn't really belive it was coming and they should probably please do a buyback, about two days later i did get this:
question for those of you who've done this: how long does it take to produce an initial offer?
short backstory is I opened a claim right away with NNA (Nissan North America) back in October when battery was diagnosed as degraded and warranty replacement was approved. They called me in late Oct and left voicemail saying a battery would arrive at dealer no later than Feb 24, 2024.
I called NNA a couple of days ago and told them a new battery would be great but i didn't really belive it was coming and they should probably please do a buyback, about two days later i did get this:
adavidw said:
I appreciate your time in crafting such a thorough response, which seems to me to sum up the situation well. I share your frustration and disappointment. One aspect that is particularly difficult is that (at least I think, apart from this issue) the Leaf is a wonderful vehicle. I relished the thought of continuing my ownership for many years with a replacement battery.
My short history is that I bought the car used in Dec '22 for $11,000 with 9 bars. Dropped to 8 spring 2023 at which time I brought it to my local (western WA) Nissan dealer. After a couple hours, they agreed it qualified for battery replacement under the warranty. At the time, the dealer estimated 18 months wait time. Initially, the only paperwork the dealer would give me was the simple battery check printout. After some time and asking nicely, they gave me the diagnosis print out showing more detailed info, including indications that a replacement battery had been ordered. I also contacted Nissan Corporate, who asked for all the info/docs (others have posted the list) and then offered me just over $8,000. I declined and said I would continue to wait for the battery.
This was all in/around May 2023. At the time, I was fine waiting, because the car functioned well over the summer. Now that we are back in the 30's-40's, I'm seeing severely reduced range and frequent turtle mode. I've had to baby it home several times, and fear getting stranded on the side of the road may be in my future.
No word since from Nissan Corporate, and a recent call to the dealer indicates they have no idea when any batteries will arrive. I did not try to negotiate the buyback price with Nissan back in the spring, but after catching up on this issue in this thread, I'm now considering it. If I can just recoup my costs, I'll sadly move on to a different EV and say goodbye to my "blue pearl".
whidbeyleafer said:
I think fairer to say 'I relished the thought of continuing my ownership for many years with a FREE replacement battery.'
You gambled, you did not win the battery lottery. You did not lose since you are going to be paid close to or all the what you paid to acquire the car. As gambles go, not bad.
I do feel bad for the buyers of these cars when new, who then suffered massive depreciation when it became apparent that the LEAF battery pack is a POS and Nissan could not care less. In retrospect we now know that they should have kept the car and waited for a buy-back, but no one (at least on this forum) realized how this would play out and Nissan was content to play their corporate asshole persona.
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